A time machine back to the 1500's to talk to Martin Luther...,

[Genesis315]

Luthers arguments were addressed by Saints and theologians, and he only got worse–three more people wouldn’t have any effect.

The only way I could see him change is if he was able to see the fruits of Protestantism–how it led to ever splintering sects, each farther from orthodoxy than the last (even by Luther’s standard); how it lead to Liberalism and then Modernism and then Agnosticism and Atheism and the promotion of all sorts of immoral and heretical things that Luther would abhor. And when he saw it was only the Catholic Church who opposed such things 500 years later, he might think twice.

 

[JonNC]

Luthers arguments were addressed by Saints and theologians, and he only got worse–three more people wouldn’t have any effect.

The only way I could see him change is if he was able to see the fruits of Protestantism–how it led to ever splintering sects, each farther from orthodoxy than the last (even by Luther’s standard); how it lead to Liberalism and then Modernism and then Agnosticism and Atheism and the promotion of all sorts of immoral and heretical things that Luther would abhor. And when he saw it was only the Catholic Church who opposed such things 500 years later, he might think twice.

I don’t know, we in the LCMS oppose such things.
What’s interesting is the fact that so few of the splintering sects actually splintered from Luther and Lutheranism. Then again, we have our own problems within Lutheranism.

Jon

 

[PJM]

=VoiceOfBible;10227253]Do you mean New Testament Sunday worship is replacement of Old Testament Saturday Sabbath?
Then not only we should meet for the mass, but should not do any of our secular work that day? No?

Close BUT!

While “Keeping the Sabbath” remains an unchangble COMMANDMENT by the “'Commandment Maker”; the AUTHORITY to have Saturday evening [after 4 pm I think?] count for Sunday “Sabbath” comes with the Key’s given to Peter and His successors [Mt. 28:18-20]

The Commandment is a Grave Obligation

The “times” a “church practice”

Continued Blessings,
pat/PJM

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I would take him to the future and show him the fruits of his endeavor and he would despair.

 

[Cat]

I would take him to the future and show him the fruits of his endeavor and he would despair.

Good plan! If you have a time machine, may as well try this plan, 'cos I think it would work!

 

[ColdComfort]

Tha answer has to be NO. Because I beleaive that the three jentlemen in the time machine would not have been able to quell the rising tide of nationalism which was a huge driving force behind the reformation.

Bingo. Luther was not the first heretic nor was Lutherism the first widespread heresy. The Lollards, Hussites , Albigensians, etc. were dealt with by secular and Church authority. With Luther secular authority supported and protected him. Sometimes, as with Henry VIII, this was a simple cynical game of grabbing lands, money and power. In other cases it may have been sincere. But Europe was just waiting for a Luther. If not him then another would have done the job.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Indeed! What a great witness for Christ! I mentioned Pope Benedict because, while Pope John Paul II seemed focused more on Orthodoxy, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict knows and understands Luther and Lutheranism probably better than any pope since the Reformation.
That, at least, is my humble opinion.

Jon

That, at least, is my humble opinion.
**
It’s a good opinion and true…

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I voted NO because I read the book about him and his own writings indicating that he feared & obeyed the devil over Christ Jesus. It didn’t matter what anyone with apologetic knowledge or historical knowledge of his own time said to him so I don’t see how anyone from the future could have convinced him to not obey the devil, who appeared to him many times, out of fear. He was a willing pawn in the hands of the devil.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I voted NO because I read the book about him and his own writings indicating that he feared & obeyed the devil over Christ Jesus. It didn’t matter what anyone with apologetic knowledge or historical knowledge of his own time said to him so I don’t see how anyone from the future could have convinced him to not obey the devil, who appeared to him many times, out of fear. He was a willing pawn in the hands of the devil.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I voted NO because I read the book about him and his own writings indicating that he feared & obeyed the devil over Christ Jesus. It didn’t matter what anyone with apologetic knowledge or historical knowledge of his own time said to him so I don’t see how anyone from the future could have convinced him to not obey the devil, who appeared to him many times, out of fear. He was a willing pawn in the hands of the devil.

I’ve read a lot of things written by and about Luther and this is the first time I’ve ever heard anything like this. Do you have any links or sources that I could read to see what you’re talking about here? …Thanks.

 

[JonNC]

I voted NO because** I read the book about him and his own writings indicating that he feared & obeyed the devil over Christ Jesus**. It didn’t matter what anyone with apologetic knowledge or historical knowledge of his own time said to him so I don’t see how anyone from the future could have convinced him to not obey the devil, who appeared to him many times, out of fear. He was a willing pawn in the hands of the devil.

Oh, give me a break. Who did you read? Father O’Hare?

I suggest you read some of the things Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict has said about him.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I voted NO because I read** the **book about him and his own writings indicating that he feared & obeyed the devil over Christ Jesus.

As if there is only one?

Jon

 

[navy76]

No. Luther wanted to do his own thing. Nothing would have changed that.

 

[Porknpie]

Oh, give me a break. Who did you read? Father O’Hare?

I suggest you read some of the things Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict has said about him.

Jon

Jon,

You don’t know about “the book”? Let me show you…must be one of these books (.pulls up a banner ad…hit the black space on the outside and it will go away.)

lmgtfy.com/?q=Martin+Luther+%22the+book%22#seen

 

[JonNC]

I’ve read a lot of things written by and about Luther and this is the first time I’ve ever heard anything like this. Do you have any links or sources that I could read to see what you’re talking about here? …Thanks.

Jimmy,
A rant, please forgive me.

I am amazed how many people have read Luther’s Works and now know his motivations, his desires, that which influenced him (God or the devil), and can even diagnose his mental health.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

You don’t know about “the book”? Let me show you…must be one of these books (.pulls up a banner ad…hit the black space on the outside and it will go away.)

lmgtfy.com/?q=Martin+Luther+%22the+book%22#seen

Thanks Pork. I’ve been Lutheran all my life, and I didn’t know about “the book”.

Seriously, though, I don’t want to belittle comehome2rome. The fact is on the protestant side, I’m sure there are some who have read “the book” on Catholicism.

I don’t expect Catholics to particularly like Luther, but I would hope that we’d all agree on his commentary on the 8th commandment:
The Eighth Commandment.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

Jon

 

[livingwordunity]

I say that no one from today would be able to convince Luther because, just as today, when someone makes up their mind that they want to leave the Catholic Church nothing anyone tells them is going to stop them because they have their mind made up that they won’t listen to anyone who doesn’t agree with them. Just like people who leave the Catholic Church today, Luther’s reasons for leaving were based on emotion and a “nobody’s going to tell me what to do” attitude.

 

[Porknpie]

I say that no one from today would be able to convince Luther because, just as today, when someone makes up their mind that they want to leave the Catholic Church nothing anyone tells them is going to stop them because they have their mind made up that they won’t listen to anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

There are plenty of reverts…the cloud over the intellect can clear through faith and reason and bring them home.

 

[livingwordunity]

There are plenty of reverts…the cloud over the intellect can clear through faith and reason and bring them home.

There are plenty of reverts, but I doubt someone explaining to them why they shouldn’t have left it had much to do with them changing their mind. In what I’ve seen, the ones who leave the Church leave for emotional reasons and have a “nobody’s going to tell me what to do” attitude. They must become humble before anyone can penetrate that.

 

[JonNC]

I say that no one from today would be able to convince Luther because, just as today, when someone makes up their mind that they want to leave the Catholic Church nothing anyone tells them is going to stop them because they have their mind made up that they won’t listen to anyone who doesn’t agree with them. Just like people who leave the Catholic Church today, Luther’s reasons for leaving were based on emotion and a “nobody’s going to tell me what to do” attitude.

Anexample of what I said above.

Why are you of the opinion that theology played no role, it was all emotion?

I know this is a forum, and long explanations are not possible. Of course emotion was involved. Luther feared that his faith and his works were not good enough to please God (kind of contradicts a previous poster’s thought that Luther was in the Devil’s camp). That’s an emotional situation. But to claim that it based on emotion is much too simplistic.

On the “nobody’s going to tell me what to do” attitude, his hyperbole may sound like that at times, for sure. But again, that seems to me a rather simplistic view of a very complex man.

Jon