A "traditional" catholic told me that the Baltimore Catechism differs from the Catechism of PJPII

[commenter]

Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
But I suppose an adult Catholic who picks up anything that starts with “Who made me? / God made me” to be somewhat beneath his IQ level.

G. K. Chesterton disagrees with you.

In Jesus and Mary,
OS.

I can’t think of any saint I know about who would not disagree with the first above statement. (and may GKC be recognized as a saint in my lifetime, his cause is initiated).

 

[DebChris]

Commenter: As someone who has taught religion, I would say there isn’t greater “diversity” in terms of knowlege of the faith. There is greater ignorance. Students are graduating from high school religion programs with far less doctrinal content than their predecessors had in 6th grade. Much of what passes for religious education is weak psychology, sociology, and whatever the media is pushing lately. The growth of ignorance means less diversity. Many lay Catholics decades ago had the option - the knowlege base - of choosing a spirituality and intellectual approach grounded in Carmelites, Dominicans, or several others, all within the Catholic Faith. Most Catholics trained since then have less knowlege, so fewer options. There is less freedom now than before 1970, for instance, both for intellect and devotions, because people don’t know the choices, don’t understand the doctrines behind the devotions. (Yes there are exceptions).
(end Commenter)

Commenter: But it’s also useful for the 2014 child and adult, immigrant or non immigrant. Some Catholics already know the content of the Baltimore, and don’t need it. But the great majority of adults and children don’t know the content, and DO need to read it.
(end Commenter)

Commenter:
Slippery Slope Warning.

Why do you call the illustrations in the Catholic Youth Bible “a slippery slope” when it clearly shows how as Catholics they have to confront these issues? They are clearly given the scriptures and the Catholic doctrine they need to confront what today’s society is telling them is the norm.

I have already mentioned the difference in catechism as I was taught versus how religious education is taught today. We had tests and were graded before being moved to the next level. The newest catechisms, replacing the weak catechisms of the 70’s & 80’s, are grounded in scripture and referenced to the CCC. The Baltimore Catechism can likewise be shown to be in line with the CCC.

Again, I have already stated that decades ago Catholics were surrounded by Catholics who lived a Catholic lifestyle. The Baltimore Catechism helped preserve the Faith. Times have changed. Communities have changed. I had few Catholic friends and the simple answers of the Baltimore Catechism were not enough to answer their criticisms of the Catholic Faith, even if it didn’t dampen mine.

When I talk about diversity of today’s Catholic community, I am talking about families who do not pray on a daily basis to members of vibrant members of charismatic communities. Children come to religious education not being able to make the Sign of the Cross. Parishes are starting to recognize the need for adult religious education.

 

[Cat]

My teenage daughter complained all through Catechesis and confirmation prep that they treated her like she was an idiot. I think most teens would tell you that Youcat fits right about there…

There is another thread about good Bible’s for teens and I asked why teens needed a special Bible. My other daughter was using an Ignatius Study Bible when she was eight years old.

I don’t know why we need to dumb things down in the Internet age when kids have access to the works of the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, commentaries, interlinear Bibles and such things with the click of a mouse.

-Tim-

Not all children are intelligent and well-trained like your daughter.

In our city, the scores came out yesterday for reading and math. In one of the “good” schools on the “good side” of town, only 13% of the schoolchildren achieved the minimal standards that the State of Illinois has set.

I was a smart child growing up–but not in math. I struggled all the way through grade school and into 7th grade. Oh, I got A’s on the tests, because I’m a good test-taker. Finally in 8th grade, I voluntarily called a halt to it. I was in Algebra in 8th grade fall semester, and after the first week, realized that I had absolutely no clue what was going on (the teacher was excellent, BTW).

So I went to the school academic counselor (yes, we had an academic counselor back then–in an inner-city, “old” school! Now we spend more money than ever, and we have cops in the schools, not academics counselors!).

I asked him to move me OUT of Honors Math into REMEDIAL Math, the very beginning math where the “dumb” students were.

He was shocked, to put it mildly, and tried to talk me out of it. But I told him just what I told you above–that I had never really understood anything about Math and it finally had caught up with me.

I was moved (the kids in the class were shocked when I walked in, because I was known as a Super Brain in the school). We were right back at the beginning, and I finally understood “the number line,” and what “carrying” meant, and all the other concepts that I had never grasped.

I was so spooked by my bad Math aptitude that I skipped math entirely in 9th grade, and when I finally had to take Math in 10th grade, was in the dreaded Algebra again. Lo and behold, it was simple now! I understood it, because I had finally had a “dumbed down” course that helped me to get the basics down pat.

It also had something to do with abstract thinking. This ability develops at different times in different children, and in me, in spite of my obvious intelligence, the ability to think abstractly had not developed enough to be able to understand that “n = 2.” That concept made no sense to my immature brain! That didn’t mean that I was “dumb.” I was just still a child in that area of development.

I made it through Calculus, and at that point, gave up math forever other than keeping track of my finances and measuring sugar and flour. Interestingly, even though I have worked in a hospital lab for over 30 years, I have never, ever used ANY of that math.

My point to telling this story is to remind you again that not all children are at the same level, and many children find it very helpful to have a good grounding in very simple, basic facts and concepts before moving on to the “higher things.” Many children also learn visually rather than through reading or hearing, and pictures help them to understand things.

It’s frustrating for the child who is ready for higher things. But one of the most important things that “smart” children can learn is charity for those who are not as blessed as they are in the brains department. A lot of mean-spirited adults have never learned this, and walk around thinking that they are better than everyone else. What good is theological understanding and knowledge if one has a prideful spirit?

I see this all over Catholic Forums, especially when it comes to music. People disparage the contemporary hymns and sigh for days of Latin hymns and the traditional hymns with the poetic language of Elizabethan or Victorian times. But again, not everyone is on the same page when it comes to music, and many people just don’t comprehend or appreciate the “higher” music styles or understand the ancient words (especially if they are in a foreign language). We cannot expect everyone to be “like us.” God doesn’t make people out of the same bowl of cookie batter.

 

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
But I suppose an adult Catholic who picks up anything that starts with “Who made me? / God made me” to be somewhat beneath his IQ level.

I can’t think of any saint I know about who would not disagree with the first above statement. (and may GKC be recognized as a saint in my lifetime, his cause is initiated).

To each their own, but we can all put words in the mouths of others. I know of no Saint that had a comment about the current Catechism, save one: St. John Paul.

For me, the question and answer format is simplistic and unhelpful for my purpose. I remember better why I know why, not just what, but then I am an adult convert. Without the deeper understanding of “what”, I could not have the same level of faith. Again, to each their own, as one should use whatever they find most helpful.

 

[TimothyH]

My point to telling this story is to remind you again that not all children are at the same level, and many children find it very helpful to have a good grounding in very simple, basic facts and concepts before moving on to the “higher things.” Many children also learn visually rather than through reading or hearing, and pictures help them to understand things.

It’s frustrating for the child who is ready for higher things. But one of the most important things that “smart” children can learn is charity for those who are not as blessed as they are in the brains department. A lot of mean-spirited adults have never learned this, and walk around thinking that they are better than everyone else. What good is theological understanding and knowledge if one has a prideful spirit? .

I appreciate your story. Thanks for telling it.

My daughter was not taught “good theological knowledge” but rather made to act in a play about St. Francis the monk. The problem here is that St. Francis was not a monk! This is just an example.

I assure you that her feelings about being treated like an idiot were not hers alone and it helps no one to accuse someone you know nothing about of having a prideful spirit.

-Tim-

 

[commenter]

Why do you call the illustrations in the Catholic Youth Bible “a slippery slope” when it clearly shows how as Catholics they have to confront these issues?

Adding anything to the Bible is a slippery slope. Footnotes are ok, only as necessary to the text. Illustrations tend to distract from the text itself, to drive home a point that the editor feels the kids need to focus on - which might or might not be what the Scripture, or the Spirit, would lead this particular youth to. We live today in the “tyranny of the urgent” where people expect every sermon, every religion lesson, should respond to the “issues” in the media.

Again, I have already stated that decades ago Catholics were surrounded by Catholics who lived a Catholic lifestyle. The Baltimore Catechism helped preserve the Faith. Times have changed.

Many individual Catholics years ago grew up in horrible non-Christian environments. Doctrinal content was, and is, just as useful to them then as it is now, for those living with holy or unholy families. Whether the child now has a deacon for a father, or has no idea who is his father, he still needs specific Catholic doctrinal content. There was nothing about the Eisenhower era that made the Baltimore Catechism more useful or readable then than in the Obama era.

There is nothing about 2014 culture or people that makes doctrinal content less understandable, or necessary, to a child or adult, than it was in 1954. There is nothing about 2014 kids and adults, and none of the changes in families or communities, that makes it prudent to postpone doctrinal content, or to water it down. (I have been a social worker over 40 years, so yes, I kinda noticed some things changed).

 

[pnewton]

Adding anything to the Bible is a slippery slope. Footnotes are ok, only as necessary to the text. Illustrations tend to distract from the text itself, to drive home a point that the editor feels the kids need to focus on - which might or might not be what the Scripture, or the Spirit, would lead this particular youth to.

If we are to look at the past in total, not just the 1950’s, illustrations are the primary way the Catholic Church has taught, having existed before the printing press and a literal society. It was never viewed as “adding anything to the Bible” any more than the whole of apostolic tradition is adding to the Bible. If you personally find illustrations a distraction, or anyone else finds them distraction, then there are other catechisms. People learn different ways and visual representations are a way many people learn best.

 

[ProVobis]

It also had something to do with abstract thinking. This ability develops at different times in different children, and in me, in spite of my obvious intelligence, the ability to think abstractly had not developed enough to be able to understand that “n = 2.” That concept made no sense to my immature brain! That didn’t mean that I was “dumb.” I was just still a child in that area of development.

It seems that in math we developed some logical skills. Don’t you remember in Plain Geometry where “A = A” was the first step in proving congruency of triangles, for example? By itself it is a “Duh!” statement but it (along with certain “givens”) shows they are necessary for subsequent “thuses” and “therefores.”

It seems like the BC is structured along those lines as well. Maybe this is how Chesterson saw it? (see post# 38)

 

[DebChris]

…
My point to telling this story is to remind you again that not all children are at the same level, and many children find it very helpful to have a good grounding in very simple, basic facts and concepts before moving on to the “higher things.” Many children also learn visually rather than through reading or hearing, and pictures help them to understand things.

It’s frustrating for the child who is ready for higher things. But one of the most important things that “smart” children can learn is charity for those who are not as blessed as they are in the brains department. A lot of mean-spirited adults have never learned this, and walk around thinking that they are better than everyone else. What good is theological understanding and knowledge if one has a prideful spirit?

I see this all over Catholic Forums, especially when it comes to music. People disparage the contemporary hymns and sigh for days of Latin hymns and the traditional hymns with the poetic language of Elizabethan or Victorian times. But again, not everyone is on the same page when it comes to music, and many people just don’t comprehend or appreciate the “higher” music styles or understand the ancient words (especially if they are in a foreign language). We cannot expect everyone to be “like us.” God doesn’t make people out of the same bowl of cookie batter.

This the reason for my post about the Catholic Youth Bible.
I still remember being given a Children’s Bible when I was in elementary school.
I also remember the comic books illustrating stepping in the middle of a fight to keep it from escalating, etc. They were given to us during catechism.

Adding anything to the Bible is a slippery slope. Footnotes are ok, only as necessary to the text. Illustrations tend to distract from the text itself, to drive home a point that the editor feels the kids need to focus on - which might or might not be what the Scripture, or the Spirit, would lead this particular youth to. We live today in the “tyranny of the urgent” where people expect every sermon, every religion lesson, should respond to the “issues” in the media.

Many individual Catholics years ago grew up in horrible non-Christian environments. Doctrinal content was, and is, just as useful to them then as it is now, for those living with holy or unholy families. Whether the child now has a deacon for a father, or has no idea who is his father, he still needs specific Catholic doctrinal content. There was nothing about the Eisenhower era that made the Baltimore Catechism more useful or readable then than in the Obama era.

There is nothing about 2014 culture or people that makes doctrinal content less understandable, or necessary, to a child or adult, than it was in 1954. There is nothing about 2014 kids and adults, and none of the changes in families or communities, that makes it prudent to postpone doctrinal content, or to water it down. (I have been a social worker over 40 years, so yes, I kinda noticed some things changed).

Nothing is added to the text of the Bible. The illustrations merely act as a catechism helping the youth respond to issues of “co-habitation” etc. It is a study Bible.
Should it be the only Bible in the home? Of course not. The home should have a Family Bible, one that is not specifically written as a “Women’s Devotional Bible” etc. I think a personal Bible as a confirmation gift is a great idea.
We are in agreement that today’s young Catholics need doctrinal content as much as the Catholics of my generation did. They need to know about the Sacraments and the Order of the Mass. They do not need to memorize, as we were required, the garments that the priest wears when saying the Mass.

 

[commenter]

When my kids were in grammar school, the school made a big deal out of the fact that children were learning content at a much earlier age than years ago, in most subjects. But not religion. For instance, parents were told, at First Communion, that children aren’t “ready” to learn about the Real Presence, like kids that age used to; we were told they’ll get that in the later grades. But they never got that in later grades. Everything was vague and wishy washy, so that “whatever you feel about a sacrament, that’s what the sacrament means”.

Religion was presented exclusively as subjective - there’s no one doctrine that’s true for everyone, just like there’s no one painting that “works” for everyone. You pick and choose what “works” for you. In morality, children were taught not “what’s right or wrong”, but to “pick the loving choice” in every situation. But that ends up meaning whatever choice feels good for me, a “me” standard that is heavily biased by the secular media culture. This leads to Catholics who support legal abortion, etc. The same 11th grade student who (according to the school) is supposedly ready and handling college level content in one course, is supposedly not ready to handle direct Catholic doctrinal content in religion class because “American families and communities are totally different now”.
Students and RCIA candidates who have unfiltered internet apparently need to be “protected” from an unfiltered Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of the Catholic Faith, and good modern texts like the Faith and Life Series of Ignatius Press, build the foundation that some things are absolutely true or false, inherently right or wrong. Most modern texts help children and adults float with the stream. Most modern texts use illustrations from stories on CNN, the priorities of Huffpost or MTV. The Faith and Life series uses classic illustrations from Scriptural or or other heritage of Catholic paintings, by the great masters. No priorities from the daily newspaper, but yes, good illustrations.

 

[ProVobis]

It seems that in math we developed some logical skills. Don’t you remember in Plain Geometry where “A = A” was the first step in proving congruency of triangles, for example?

Should be PLANE Geometry.

 

[DebChris]

Religious education improves with improved knowledge on the part of the catechist. In the past, in order to teach catechism all that was necessary was to volunteer your time. That is no longer the case, at least in my current diocese.
Now before being allowed to teach, the catechist undergoes a criminal background check. Each prospective catechist is also required to attend Virtus training on recognizing a child predator. The diocese provides catechist training and the catechist is certified at different levels after taking the specific classes offered. These classes are generally offered on set evenings and Saturdays. Finally, before being certified at Level 1, the catechist is also recommended anonymously by at least two other members of the congregation who testify that he/she lives a Catholic lifestyle.
The Ignatius Catechism with its historical artwork helps students see the continuity of Catholic teaching. It is just one example of how catechisms have improved since the publication of the CCC. Since I am just returning from overseas, I don’t remember the name of the series that my parish used. I do know that the teacher’s manual linked each lesson to the CCC and relevant scripture passages.

 

[commenter]

Religious education improves with improved knowledge on the part of the catechist. In the past, in order to teach catechism all that was necessary was to volunteer your time. That is no longer the case, at least in my current diocese.
Now before being allowed to teach, the catechist undergoes a criminal background check. Each prospective catechist is also required to attend Virtus training on recognizing a child predator. The diocese provides catechist training and the catechist is certified at different levels after taking the specific classes offered. These classes are generally offered on set evenings and Saturdays. Finally, before being certified at Level 1, the catechist is also recommended anonymously by at least two other members of the congregation who testify that he/she lives a Catholic lifestyle.
The Ignatius Catechism with its historical artwork helps students see the continuity of Catholic teaching. It is just one example of how catechisms have improved since the publication of the CCC. Since I am just returning from overseas, I don’t remember the name of the series that my parish used. I do know that the teacher’s manual linked each lesson to the CCC and relevant scripture passages.

 

[ialsop]

My teenage daughter complained all through Catechesis and confirmation prep that they treated her like she was an idiot. I think most teens would tell you that Youcat fits right about there…

There is another thread about good Bible’s for teens and I asked why teens needed a special Bible. My other daughter was using an Ignatius Study Bible when she was eight years old.

I don’t know why we need to dumb things down in the Internet age when kids have access to the works of the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, commentaries, interlinear Bibles and such things with the click of a mouse.

-Tim-

DEFFINETLY!!! As a teen, I use all the traditional chatechisms and NOT the youcat…confirmation prep is coming up. I hope we dont use the Youcat.

 

[TimothyH]

DEFFINETLY!!! As a teen, I use all the traditional chatechisms and NOT the youcat…confirmation prep is coming up. I hope we dont use the Youcat.

Don’t let them make you do a play about St. Francis the monk. My daughter pointed out that St. Francis wasn’t a monk but a friar, active religious, and she was told not to make trouble and to stop being a show-off.

-Tim-

 

[ialsop]

Don’t let them make you do a play about St. Francis the monk. My daughter pointed out that St. Francis wasn’t a monk but a friar, active religious, and she was told not to make trouble and to stop being a show-off.

-Tim-

Hehe lol.

OR…one theology teacher told me how Paul fell off a horse. So I explained that horses were not form Israel and far too expensive, only for Roman Legionaries and Paul was only a Jewish soldier not a Roman…they told me to be quiet.

 

[MissRose73]

I have my mom’s 3rd or 4th grade catechism/religious education book from the mid 1950’s. The questions and answer portions are very Baltimore Catechism style like the reprints of the Baltimore Catechisms I have obtained.

I do have to say that I like how the Baltimore is done. In my opinion, people should be familiar with both the Catechism of the Catholic Church & the Baltimore Catechism. I also have the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that helps in finding things in the larger catechism.

 

[AndyP2010]

Should be PLANE Geometry.

Well if you had posted in latin you wouldn’t have these problems.

 

[Cat]

Well, everyone, I’ll step in it here, but honestly, I think that this thread in general demonstrates what I was talking about earlier–a sense of intellectual superiority over all those poor people who don’t have the brain chops.

We need intelligence in the Church, definitely, and we need to propagate the Truth, not myths and half-truths and inaccuracies. Kudos to those of you who want to set things straight and promote the highest levels of understanding.

But we also need tact.

I think that children should be taught that speaking up in a public setting is not always the most tactful and wisest way to handle teaching errors.

A better, “softer”, and often more effective approach is to ask to speak with the teacher at a time convenient for them (not right after class), and at that time, praise the teacher for the hard work of teaching the class, and gently give the teacher the correct information and give them the sources that prove it.

And then back away without expecting any kind of pat on the back.

This approach gives the teacher the opportunity to “save face” by presenting the corrected information to the class themselves. Sometimes kids, even intellectual kids, can’t see why it’s important for a teacher to be able to maintain authority in the classroom setting. Intellectuals tend to see only “the facts,” and forget about the human interest factors.

Yes, the best teachers do encourage their students to speak up, disagree, argue, debate, present sources that prove a different “fact,” etc.

But many of the teachers in religious settings, especially children’s and youth venues, are just volunteers, and they are doing the best they can! The children should be taught this, and they should be taught that respect for a teacher is important, and that they need to be careful to maintain order in the classroom.

Finally, I realize that there is a lot of teasing going on in this thread, but you know, it comes across as condescending. “I’m so cool that I can make jokes about Latin.” That’s fine if you’re with your fellow intellectuals. But this is a public forum, and I’m guessing that I’m not the only one who feels put off by some of the one-upping that’s going on here.

There are a lot of kids (and grownups) who find the YouCat and the comic book Bibles and other “simpleton” works helpful. I would like to encourage you all to stop looking down your noses at others who are not your intellectual equals.

 

[TimothyH]

Well, everyone, I’ll step in it here, but honestly, I think that this thread in general demonstrates what I was talking about earlier–a sense of intellectual superiority over all those poor people who don’t have the brain chops.

We need intelligence in the Church, definitely, and we need to propagate the Truth, not myths and half-truths and inaccuracies. Kudos to those of you who want to set things straight and promote the highest levels of understanding.

But we also need tact.

I think that children should be taught that speaking up in a public setting is not always the most tactful and wisest way to handle teaching errors.

A better, “softer”, and often more effective approach is to ask to speak with the teacher at a time convenient for them (not right after class), and at that time, praise the teacher for the hard work of teaching the class, and gently give the teacher the correct information and give them the sources that prove it.

And then back away without expecting any kind of pat on the back.

This approach gives the teacher the opportunity to “save face” by presenting the corrected information to the class themselves. Sometimes kids, even intellectual kids, can’t see why it’s important for a teacher to be able to maintain authority in the classroom setting. Intellectuals tend to see only “the facts,” and forget about the human interest factors.

Yes, the best teachers do encourage their students to speak up, disagree, argue, debate, present sources that prove a different “fact,” etc.

But many of the teachers in religious settings, especially children’s and youth venues, are just volunteers, and they are doing the best they can! The children should be taught this, and they should be taught that respect for a teacher is important, and that they need to be careful to maintain order in the classroom.

Finally, I realize that there is a lot of teasing going on in this thread, but you know, it comes across as condescending. “I’m so cool that I can make jokes about Latin.” That’s fine if you’re with your fellow intellectuals. But this is a public forum, and I’m guessing that I’m not the only one who feels put off by some of the one-upping that’s going on here.

There are a lot of kids (and grownups) who find the YouCat and the comic book Bibles and other “simpleton” works helpful. I would like to encourage you all to stop looking down your noses at others who are not your intellectual equals.

I think you are being over sensitive.

-Tim-