A Traditional Catholic... with a boyfriend?

[BHL_20]

Why are gay people held to such ridiculously higher standards than straight people? “Oh my gosh, those gay teenagers are holding hands! They must be having sex every day twelve times a day!” followed by “aww John and Susie are holding hands; that’s so cute!”

Straight people are automatically assumed to be celibate until marriage; gay people are automatically assumed to be having sex right out of the gate. The absurdity of it all is part of the culture of intolerance plaguing the Church right now. It’d be better for everyone if we stopped making assumptions about the intentions or activities of those in same-sex relationships we would not make of those in opposite-sex relationships.

Heterosexual people have to date to get to know each other before marriage. It’s impossible to know for sure whether they’re having sex but we should assume the best about them.

However, homosexuals cannot get married (according to Catholic teaching) so there is no reason for them to be dating. Even if they’re planning never to have sex, which is a highly unlikely scenario, by showing each other signs of affection they’re putting themselves in an occasion of sin. They will be tempted to further each time, and nothing good can come of this.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Nor does every heterosexual person live a Norman Rockwell life and I doubt that most heterosexual couples wait for marriage either. As for whether active homosexuals with boyfriends might want to wait for marriage for religious reasons, until recently that was not even possible since they were not allowed to get married in most states and most churches would not perform such marriages. But now they are legal in 35 states and some Episcopalian churches, Presbyterian churches, Lutheran churches (ELCA), the United Church of Christ, some Quakers and others do perform religious weddings for same-sex couples.

If your point is that homosexuals do not have a monopoly on sin. Then I agree. That however does not make it virtuous.

I am curious about two things though. You think that homosexual couples religiously think that waiting for marriage to commit sodomy is a religious conviction? Weird.

And also, do you think that religiously, I should be able to marry my father?

 

[Thomas_White]

There are lots of gay people like myself who lived at a time when no one would have suggested that we become gay, especially our parents. What parent would have wanted their children to suffer the stigma of being gay? And when I was growing up 40 years ago, society was still very anti-gay and their was much more pressure then not to be gay. How many people back then would have become confused about what society thought about homosexuality? How many people back then would have had someone suggest to them that they should be gay? Not impossible, of course, but I don’t think there would have been many. I never even met another gay person until I was 21 but still knew I was attracted to my own sex by the time I was about 11.

There are many factors for all of us that are related to our behaviour, including both heredity and environment. This is hardly true only for homosexuals; rather, it is true for all of us. And every one of us has our foibles. We all have our trials and tribulations, and we are all sinners. But this fact excuses nothing. There is free will, a fundamental concept in Catholicism, and we alone are responsible for our actions. Our salvation entails knowing it and doing something about it. Salvation most likely involves a personal struggle at some time in our lives for most of us.

But I have a question, and I don’t know the answer. You might be able to answer it. What is it that Catholic homosexuals want from the Church? If the answer isn’t known by you, what is it, specifically, that you seek from the Catholic Church?

 

[BrassAnkles]

But I have a question, and I don’t know the answer. You might be able to answer it. What is it that Catholic homosexuals want from the Church? If the answer isn’t known by you, what is it, specifically, that you seek from the Catholic Church?

They want the Church to accept that homosexuality is ordained by God and thus natural, nothing less.

 

[SMGS127]

But I have a question, and I don’t know the answer. You might be able to answer it. What is it that Catholic homosexuals want from the Church? If the answer isn’t known by you, what is it, specifically, that you seek from the Catholic Church?

To not be ostracized by the entire community if someone finds out they’re gay. To end the hateful or homophobic language used by some members of the Church such as “f****t,” “d**e,” “sodomite,” or “homosexual lifestyle.” To counteract prejudicial falsehoods, such as the false link to pedophilia, the false assumption of causal links to drug usage or promiscuity, etc.

Essentially, all we (and by me, I mean gay & lesbian faithful Catholics) want is for the environment to stop being so hostile. Stop treating us like we’re going to poison children the first chance we get. Stop treating us like we are automatically committing immoral sexual acts if we don’t want to go through life without anyone standing beside us. Stop treating us like we’re not “real” Catholics because we’re gay. And people can pretend that this already happens, but you see it on these forums and you see it in the pews and you see it in the parishes. Those who are unaffected either don’t notice or turn a blind eye, but it is VERY prevalent.

I hope this helps.

 

[SMGS127]

Heterosexual people have to date to get to know each other before marriage. It’s impossible to know for sure whether they’re having sex but we should assume the best about them.

However, homosexuals cannot get married (according to Catholic teaching) so there is no reason for them to be dating. Even if they’re planning never to have sex, which is a highly unlikely scenario, by showing each other signs of affection they’re putting themselves in an occasion of sin. They will be tempted to further each time, and nothing good can come of this.

There is PLENTY of reason for them to be dating. Companionship is a clear good. An obvious good that everyone can agree is a good. In American and most other cultures, dating is not about marital discernment; or rather, “being a boyfriend/girlfriend” is not about marital discernment. Societally, the phrase is used merely to describe one’s companionship with/commitment to someone else. It has no sexual connotations – asexuals who are not aromantic actually prefer relationships with no sexual involvement.

So yes, plenty of good can come out of chaste homosexual relationships. We are not uncontrollable animals who cannot go a day without involving our genitalia with another person. We can handle chaste relationships. And it is in the Catechism that one must always assume chastity. Always.

 

[BrassAnkles]

To not be ostracized by the entire community if someone finds out they’re gay. To end the hateful or homophobic language used by some members of the Church such as “f****t,” “d**e,” “sodomite,” or “homosexual lifestyle.” To counteract prejudicial falsehoods, such as the false link to pedophilia, the false assumption of causal links to drug usage or promiscuity, etc.

Essentially, all we (and by me, I mean gay & lesbian faithful Catholics) want is for the environment to stop being so hostile. Stop treating us like we’re going to poison children the first chance we get. Stop treating us like we are automatically committing immoral sexual acts if we don’t want to go through life without anyone standing beside us. Stop treating us like we’re not “real” Catholics because we’re gay. And people can pretend that this already happens, but you see it on these forums and you see it in the pews and you see it in the parishes. Those who are unaffected either don’t notice or turn a blind eye, but it is VERY prevalent.

I hope this helps.

Homosexual indoctrination by society is very harmful to children,

As someone who has been labeled as homosexual by many as a child and as an adult as well I do not support bullying. Still, just because people are bullied does not mean their actions are correct.

 

[Thomas_White]

To not be ostracized by the entire community if someone finds out they’re gay. To end the hateful or homophobic language used by some members of the Church such as “f****t,” “d**e,” “sodomite,” or “homosexual lifestyle.” To counteract prejudicial falsehoods, such as the false link to pedophilia, the false assumption of causal links to drug usage or promiscuity, etc.

Essentially, all we (and by me, I mean gay & lesbian faithful Catholics) want is for the environment to stop being so hostile. Stop treating us like we’re going to poison children the first chance we get. Stop treating us like we are automatically committing immoral sexual acts if we don’t want to go through life without anyone standing beside us. Stop treating us like we’re not “real” Catholics because we’re gay. And people can pretend that this already happens, but you see it on these forums and you see it in the pews and you see it in the parishes. Those who are unaffected either don’t notice or turn a blind eye, but it is VERY prevalent.

I hope this helps.

Not entirely. Since I was age 6 (more than 60 years ago), I have attended Mass. Not once have I ever seen any of the anti-gay behaviour you describe while I was inside a Catholic Church. In my experience, that one is gay isn’t even known inside a Catholic Church. That might not be true, however, in every case. I don’t know.

But is the issue that openly gay individuals, and gay couples, should be able to freely and openly receive Holy Communion?

 

[SMGS127]

Not entirely. Since I was age 6 (more than 60 years ago), I have attended Mass. Not once have I ever seen any of the anti-gay behaviour you describe while I was inside a Catholic Church. In my experience, that one is gay isn’t even known inside a Catholic Church. That might not be true, however, in every case. I don’t know.

But is the issue that openly gay individuals, and gay couples, should be able to freely and openly receive Holy Communion?

I don’t see the problem with openly gay individuals being able to freely receive Communion. Being gay or lesbian has never been a sin in the Church. I understand the uncomfortability people have with gay or lesbian couples, but if they are completely chaste, then they are still in a state of grace and would be able to receive as well. Obviously any sexually active gay people would be barred, just as any sexually active unmarried straight people would be. But that’s not really the biggest concern, considering all of this is already currently in place and allowed. The concern is with the vile atmosphere in the Church.

Again, you just don’t notice. For a gay person, we hear every sly remark someone makes about gays or lesbians. We get upset every time we hear the fake gays/pedophilia link. We have to put up with homilies on how “ridiculous” gay relationships are (YES, that was a real homily, only a few weeks ago). We have to put up with people talking about how we have this “lifestyle” and how immoral we are and how we’re “sodomites.” We have to put up with people automatically assuming sexual promiscuity, even if we’re celibate and not in a relationship. We have to deal with people afraid to allow us around their children.

The thing is, you don’t see any of this because it doesn’t affect your life. But there is a reason that the Synod of the Family emphasized respect of homosexuals. There are many who openly disregard respect for us whatsoever. And if members of the Church aren’t even respecting celibate homosexuals, they’re certainly not respecting our gay & lesbian brethren in deep sin that we need to be reaching out to, not hatefully condemning.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Not entirely. Since I was age 6 (more than 60 years ago), I have attended Mass. Not once have I ever seen any of the anti-gay behaviour you describe while I was inside a Catholic Church. In my experience, that one is gay isn’t even known inside a Catholic Church. That might not be true, however, in every case. I don’t know.

But is the issue that openly gay individuals, and gay couples, should be able to freely and openly receive Holy Communion?

Even though many in the “world” labeled me as homosexual, I was never labeled this way in the Catholic Church nor much less treated badly. Sins are a private affair mostly, until we do something that calls attention.

In the case of those with SSA, they cannot accept that people won’t accept their condition, hence their constant claims of discrimination and harassment. I know of no other time in the history of the Church where practitioners of a particular act claimed harassment because the Church recognized it was a sin. this is unprecedented.

 

[Thomas_White]

I don’t see the problem with openly gay individuals being able to freely receive Communion. Being gay or lesbian has never been a sin in the Church. I understand the uncomfortability people have with gay or lesbian couples, but if they are completely chaste, then they are still in a state of grace and would be able to receive as well. Obviously any sexually active gay people would be barred, just as any sexually active unmarried straight people would be. But that’s not really the biggest concern, considering all of this is already currently in place and allowed. The concern is with the vile atmosphere in the Church.

Again, you just don’t notice. For a gay person, we hear every sly remark someone makes about gays or lesbians. We get upset every time we hear the fake gays/pedophilia link. We have to put up with homilies on how “ridiculous” gay relationships are (YES, that was a real homily, only a few weeks ago). We have to put up with people talking about how we have this “lifestyle” and how immoral we are and how we’re “sodomites.” We have to put up with people automatically assuming sexual promiscuity, even if we’re celibate and not in a relationship. We have to deal with people afraid to allow us around their children.

The thing is, you don’t see any of this because it doesn’t affect your life. But there is a reason that the Synod of the Family emphasized respect of homosexuals. There are many who openly disregard respect for us whatsoever. And if members of the Church aren’t even respecting celibate homosexuals, they’re certainly not respecting our gay & lesbian brethren in deep sin that we need to be reaching out to, not hatefully condemning.

I understand, and thank you for your clarification. My question was serious, as I really was curious to know about gays openly receiving Holy Communion. It involves my ability to understand what the Synod might be considering. Not much has been explained.

At Mass today, the Gospel reading concerned those who reject the “least among us.” I sense many gays feel they are perceived as being in that category or at least treated that way by the Church. In today’s Gospel reading, Christ says that those who reject the “least among us” reject Him. And since He has made it clear that this is contrary to His explicit teaching, they are condemned. Not a teaching to ignore, I think. Thank you for the explanation.

 

[SMGS127]

I understand, and thank you for your clarification. My question was serious, as I really was curious to know about gays openly receiving Holy Communion. It involves my ability to understand what the Synod might be considering. Not much has been explained.

At Mass today, the Gospel reading concerned those who reject the “least among us.” I sense many gays feel they are perceived as being in that category or at least treated that way by the Church. In today’s Gospel reading, Christ says that those who reject the “least among us” reject Him. And since He has made it clear that this is contrary to His explicit teaching, they are condemned. Not a teaching to ignore, I think. Thank you for the explanation.

You’re welcome, and thank you for your kindness. God bless.

~ SMGS

 

[Thomas_White]

Even though many in the “world” labeled me as homosexual, I was never labeled this way in the Catholic Church nor much less treated badly. Sins are a private affair mostly, until we do something that calls attention.

In the case of those with SSA, they cannot accept that people won’t accept their condition, hence their constant claims of discrimination and harassment. I know of no other time in the history of the Church where practitioners of a particular act claimed harassment because the Church recognized it was a sin. this is unprecedented.

When I was in high school, I was considering a vocation to either the Priesthood or the Brotherhood since our high school was an all-male school operated by the Brothers of the Holy Cross. I was pretty serious about it and was both the quiet type and spiritual. I did not then date much. I was eventually called names like q***r and the like, and was once punched solidly in the face in a hallway at school. Trust me, the experience was not easy to endure. As a result, I do have empathy with the sensitivities of gays. And I would hope my questions and comments are understood in that light.

The experience hurt deeply. Anyway, I have been married in the Catholic Church for nearly forty-five years.

 

[BrassAnkles]

We have to put up with homilies on how “ridiculous” gay relationships are (YES, that was a real homily, only a few weeks ago).

The Catholic Church has the responsibility of speaking out against sin, especially serious sin.

At any rate I have adulterous thoughts and don’t feel offended when I hear homilies bout adultery, so why should you be offended when you hear about homosexuality?

 

[Thomas_White]

The Catholic Church has the responsibility of speaking out against sin, especially serious sin.

At any rate I have adulterous thoughts and don’t feel offended when I hear homilies bout adultery, so why should you be offended when you hear about homosexuality?

Let’s just admit it. We are all sinners.

 

[BrassAnkles]

When I was in high school, I was considering a vocation to either the Priesthood or the Brotherhood since our high school was an all-male school operated by the Brothers of the Holy Cross. I was pretty serious about it and was both the quiet type and spiritual. I did not then date much. I was eventually called names like q***r and the like, and was once punched solidly in the face in a hallway at school. Trust me, the experience was not easy to endure. As a result, I do have empathy with the sensitivities of gays. And I would hope my questions and comments are understood in that light.

The experience hurt deeply. Anyway, I have been married in the Catholic Church for nearly forty-five years.

I think it is important for us Catholic to firmly establish that we don’t hate those with SSA nor tolerate their bullying etc., only that we will not accept their condition nor much less enable them to promote it in the Church.

Still there is a lot of propaganda out there that would claim otherwise. The problem is that so many persons who struggle with SSA seem to want to identify themselves solely as homosexual even above being a Christian has the effect that they are offended personally when someone points out what the Gospel says about homosexuality.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Let’s just admit it. We are all sinners.

Yes indeed. Please love me but not my sin.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Let’s just admit it. We are all sinners.

I’ll admit that most of us (humans) were at one time, sinners.

 

[garyo49]

I won’t comment on what is/isn’t sinful in his situation (having a boyfriend can’t be in the slightest, though perhaps expressing their mutual love in particular ways is, for the Church at any rate). But I don’t think there’s actually an inherent contradiction in being homosexual of itself, and in being a faithful Catholic.

First of all, there is undoubtedly sin in his life (there is, frankly, in everyone’s - it’s just fairly obvious in what way for him!). But that doesn’t mean he can’t be entirely faithful to Church teaching in every other respect, and he’s only drawn towards sin in this area because of whom he is naturally built to fall in love with.

The Church’s - and indeed all of western society’s - rather…awkward…obsession with sex (in any kind of context) I think rather gives the impression that how one expresses sexual desire is the ONLY or HIGHEST arbiter of one’s personal identity. That’s clearly rubbish. Your friend is a faithful Catholic man who happens to be gay - rather than a gay man who is also trying (best he can) to be a faithful Roman Catholic.

One of my closest friends, from my church, is also homosexual, and in a (platonic, as far as I can tell) relationship with another woman. Just because she’s gay, that doesn’t mean automatically she disagrees with Church teaching on the matter, or that she desires to disobey it. She is just as faithfully - even stunningly conservative - Catholic as the next woman, who happens to be in love with another woman. I suspect it’s a similar case to this man’s.

I don’t know how he must feel in his heart, about these two aspects to his life each of which must bring him great joy - because there’s frankly inherent conflict between the two. In one sense his situation maybe is “worse” because he will unequivocally know what he is doing is sinful; on the other hand I think there is something to greatly celebrate in someone who is at peace (?) with his sexuality but has not felt driven from the Church as a result.

I suppose it’s very similar to all those millions of Catholics who use contraception (there are WAY too many 2 or 3-child ‘good Catholic’ families for everyone to just be practicing NFP!). If one can square it with one’s conscience then that doesn’t make it ok but a compromise between accepting the nurturing love of Christ and the love of another human being sometimes has to be made somewhere, sometimes. That doesn’t necessarily stop is being sinful but I’m pretty sure that God does, in fact, understand.

To go back to the original issue, it’s one area where the Bible is rather unequivocal on the matter. But were this man known to me, I would not talk to him or pray for him that his life might be changed, but only that his soul is in this life, and shall always be (especially this Sunday), at peace.

OP said this guy was a practicing homosexual. What is a practicing homosexual? What happens when a faithful Catholic gay guy or woman finds a boyfriend/girlfriend. My son found a girl he really liked. As time went on they became more serious. They became more affectionate, they held hands and each other. They kissed, they went on outings together and spent most of their time together. The natural progression was they wanted to get married. I don’t know if they were intimate before they were married, but they could have been. Everyone knows how it feels to be close to someone you have feelings for. I think it’s a problem for gay people because if they end up being serious and wanting to marry then the are in trouble with Church teachings. The point I am trying to make is; If you are gay you have the same wants and desires that we all have. Most of us found someone we really liked and married and settled down. That’s not something gay people in the Church can do. That means that they have SSA and no relationships or have a platonic loving one without ever being physical or marrying. It’s a problem for those that find someone.

 

[Thorolfr]

At Mass today, the Gospel reading concerned those who reject the “least among us.” I sense many gays feel they are perceived as being in that category or at least treated that way by the Church. In today’s Gospel reading, Christ says that those who reject the “least among us” reject Him. And since He has made it clear that this is contrary to His explicit teaching, they are condemned. Not a teaching to ignore, I think. Thank you for the explanation.

Good point. I heard that Bible passage from Matthew in my Lutheran church today, too, and for a long time, gay people were part of the “least among us”. Like all people, they must be treated with kindness and respect even by people who disagree with them. In fact, we are even commanded to love our enemies. As it says in Matthew 5:43-48:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.