A Vision

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mammallama said:
I am not in agreement with Thistle.Since bible times there have been periods of visions and apparitions.Once such period began with Lourdes 150 years ago and we are still in those times.Just read any book about miracles by a reputable source.Check out your local catholic book store or EWTN.

Perhaps more to the point is that a person cannot demand a sign.That does not mean that God stopped giving signs.Just that we must believe even though we (probably) will never see one.
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That’s the point I was making. We should not look for signs.
 
Lief_Erikson said:
The Confessional is an entirely different experience. It could have just erased that sin from within me. While I might have continued to experience temptations afterward, the sins of the past would be gone, and even their temptation can be blunted afterward. I experienced that release from pornographic sin a few weeks ago when confessing this in the Confessional.

I feel as though when I became a Catholic, the experience I’d had of Jesus as a non-Catholic Christian was not in the least diminished. Rather, it was massively enhanced. I felt that I had come to the completeness of everything I had held most dear in Christianity. It is the completion of Christianity, I firmly believe. It is all that Christianity was meant by Christ to be, what He, His disciples and their successors taught that it should be.

I think your own spiritual battle would be radically changed if you took it to the Catholic Confessional. Unfortunately, I don’t think non-Catholics are allowed to partake of it unless they’re planning to become Catholic and are going through the RCIA.

I’ve experienced incredible things in the Catholic sacraments. There is nothing at all in the entire world like the Catholic Eucharist. Nothing so special, so precious. I don’t think you need a vision from Jesus- what you need, I believe, is the Catholic Eucharist. Only Catholics are allowed to partake of it, for the safety of non-Catholics, because it is so holy that it can harm those who have not been to the Catholic Confessional.

I had an experience about our Eucharist from the Lord only a few weeks ago, one night in Washington DC. I don’t know whether it was a dream or a vision, whether I was awake or asleep. At the time I experienced it, I felt absolutely certain I was awake. I’m not sure now. It felt vastly more real than any dream I’ve ever had. I feel sure that spiritually, it was real.

I saw the walls of the room where I was sleeping turn to glass, and through them I saw the Eucharist. Dark blood was flowing from the Eucharist, the blood of Jesus. A light from Heaven was shining down on the Eucharist.

I recommend exploring our faith, on this site or elsewhere. I think it will likely prove the completion of what you now believe and cherish, though it’ll probably startle you with things you aren’t used to. That’s what it was for me. Also, the Confessional is a life-changing experience, and I think it would prove a turning point in the spiritual battle you now fight.

The year or so battle over sexual darkness within me that I fought as a non-Catholic Christian was not necessary, for Christ provided us in the Confessional an easier way. The years of emotional scarring I endured because of having hurt those kids was also unnecessary and healed by God’s love in an instant.

I’m far from alone in this- the experiences of peace and transformation surrounding the Confessional are vast in numbers, impacting incredible numbers of Catholics around the world. I think there have been one or two threads about that created on this forum already. I recommend you look to these answers, and perhaps explore these concepts further (I don’t know how much you might already know, but there is a lot more to say about all of them) as you seek deeper intimacy with your Lord and mine.

God bless you :).
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Thanks for all for the overwhelming support and advice, especially you Lief. Your words sooth me, and I feel . . . humbled. I need to think.:bowdown2: In respect.
 
InLight247 said:
I have a question in my mind for very long time. I always wanted to ask the question, but I never know how to ask; therefore, I have never asked anyone before.

Put a long question short, I have a good Catholic friend, she told me she had visions, maybe not all the time, but frequently enough. For example, she would tell me during the Easter Mass, she saw the Heavenly Father and Jesus, and she described how the wind blew their clothes… I always listen to her without making comment.

She is also in deliverance ministry, and during some sessions, she would see the devil… Now, she is a very normal person, a professional, a pious person, a contemplative, not a charismatic, and we have been friends for many years. She said she told her visions to couple of her priest friends and they confirmed her visions. What do you say about this? Could the gift of visions last for so many years and never go away? I guess God can give such gift to anyone as He wishes. But what do you say about this? I am confused.
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Hi InLight,

A person experiencing visions really needs to be in the care of a wise spiritual director to help them with discernment. I don’t know about the length of time thing, other than it takes time to confirm (or disprove) a vision. Generally a deception will start off innocently enough, and then over time the bad fruit appears. . .little untruths in the vision or message, the visionary becoming proud of the visions, etc.
 
Hi InLight,

A person experiencing visions really needs to be in the care of a wise spiritual director to help them with discernment. I don’t know about the length of time thing, other than it takes time to confirm a vision. Generally a deception will start off innocently enough, and then over time the bad fruit appears. . .little untruths in the vision or message, the visionary becoming proud of the visions, etc.
 
InLight247 said:
So true, Dave, so true!!

I have a question in my mind for very long time. I always wanted to ask the question, but I never know how to ask; therefore, I have never asked anyone before.

Put a long question short, I have a good Catholic friend, she told me she had visions, maybe not all the time, but frequently enough. For example, she would tell me during the Easter Mass, she saw the Heavenly Father and Jesus, and she described how the wind blew their clothes… I always listen to her without making comment.

She is also in deliverance ministry, and during some sessions, she would see the devil… Now, she is a very normal person, a professional, a pious person, a contemplative, not a charismatic, and we have been friends for many years. She said she told her visions to couple of her priest friends and they confirmed her visions. What do you say about this? Could the gift of visions last for so many years and never go away? I guess God can give such gift to anyone as He wishes. But what do you say about this? I am confused.

That is so true and so important. We do not seek the gifts but the gift giver Himself.
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Hey InLight, I haven’t seen you in awhile. Remember me? I was posting alot back in the “Spirituality” section last fall, while having my God high 🙂
 
beckycmarie said:
Hi InLight,

A person experiencing visions really needs to be in the care of a wise spiritual director to help them with discernment. I don’t know about the length of time thing, other than it takes time to confirm (or disprove) a vision. Generally a deception will start off innocently enough, and then over time the bad fruit appears. . .little untruths in the vision or message, the visionary becoming proud of the visions, etc.
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Thanks Beckycmarie, I totally agree with you. That is what I always think.

This friend never shows any pride but the spirit of service, and she serves a lot. It sounds to me that she can “see” not only Jesus but also the Father, for so many years. Each time she talked about it as a matter of fact. And I don’t think she confirms with a spiritual director for every one of her visions. It does not sound that way.

I think I will mention to her about the confirmation part when I get a chance to bring it up. It is not so easy to say this over the phone since she lives far away in another State. I just don’t want her to think I am doubting her integrity, which I am not.
 
The_Catholic said:
Hey InLight, I haven’t seen you in awhile. Remember me? I was posting alot back in the “Spirituality” section last fall, while having my God high 🙂
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Good to see you, the Catholic!

Hope all is well with you.
 
Hi Lief and Inlight -

Since both of you addressed the actual experience of visions/locutions and what to do about them, perhaps a few words from Fr. Dubay are in order. Following are quotes I’ve highlighted from his chapter titled Locutions and Visions from “Fire Within:”

Fr. Dubay said:
Overall Attitudes
“The first principle is that divine interventions are normal gifts given whenever God sees fit to give them. They are not rare.”

“The second principle may surprise many of those who are happy with the first, and it will perhaps disappoint more than a few others: namely, illusion and deception are not rare either.”

“The third principle is the logical consequence of the first two: the need for objective ecclesial discernment.”

“The fourth principle surprises almost everyone when they first hear of it: private divine communications are relatively unimportant…While both Teresa and John appreciated an authentic vision, they were emphatic that a simple act of pure love is of more value.”

Signs of Authenticity (specifically relating to locutions but, in general, apply to visions)
  1. “The locution bears a sense of power and authority both in itself and its effects.”
  2. “The message is in accord with Catholic faith and morals and therefore with scripture.”
  3. “A word from God brings calm and peace.”
  4. “It prompts the recipient to break forth in the praise of the Lord.”
  5. “The message remains long in the memory; some ideas are indelible and never vanish even after long years.”
  6. “When the locution is concerned with a coming event, the words often bring an unshakable certitude with them that things will come out as they indicate.”
  7. “Genuine words from a divine source are clear, not confused as our own ideas often are.”
  8. “The word often comes unexpectedly and frequently it is contrary to what one knew, desired or wished. The experience has nothing in common with autosuggestion or wishful thinking.”
  9. “One single word can contain a world of meaning.”
  10. “An authentic locution brings humility to the recipient. There is little or no inclination to self-exaltation.”
  11. “The word spoken by the indwelling Spirit inhibits all other thought and compels attention to it. There is no choice but to listen.”
“When the enlightenment has the signs we have discussed, one can be confident that it comes from God.”

However, “locutions do not render a person any the better for having received them. Profit depends on whether or not we use them well.”

And finally, “it is always wise, at least at first, to set locutions aside.”

“John goes on to specify the harms that come upon people and spiritual directors who pay undue attention to visions and locutions. The recipients slowly lose humility in that they believe themselves prominent in God’s eyes.”
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Hope this helps . . .
Dave 🙂
 
Thanks Dave. You just inspired me what to do.

I will copy/paste what you posted and email it to my friend.

I have mentioned “Fire Within” numerous times to this friend and encouraged her to buy and read it. Just last night, she finally said she would order it. I will email this to her and next time we talk on the phone I can continue from here.🙂
 
It all sounds very good. I think it’s very wise counsel. Thank-you for sharing it.

I’m not entirely sure what a Locution is, though, frankly. I think, from what I’ve heard, that it’s supposed to be a strong impression one has that God is speaking to oneself in some kind of inner voice. I don’t know very precisely what it is.
 
Lief_Erikson said:
I’m not entirely sure what a Locution is, though, frankly. I think, from what I’ve heard, that it’s supposed to be a strong impression one has that God is speaking to oneself in some kind of inner voice. I don’t know very precisely what it is.
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Let’s think of it this way: an imaginative vision is something we see with our “inner eye” . . . in our mind. Importantly, it’s not like a photograph; rather, if the vision is of a person he or she appears as if alive. Likewise, a locution is a word, or brief series of words, heard with our “inner ear” . . . again, our mind. And typically the voice is not our own. When authentic, they take on the characteristics previously described.

And these events typically occur, but not always, when one is in the midst of contemplative prayer . . . when there is some degree of absorption of the faculties at work . . . which makes us receptive for such divine communications. To Father Dubay’s point, for those drawn to contemplative prayer, locutions are not necessarily an uncommon occurance. They come suddenly, and unexpectedly usually giving comfort such as “Be not afraid” or “it’s all true,” just to give a couple likely examples.

However, the important thing is that these visions and locutions are not entirely spiritual . . . since they are perceived by our senses, in this case our imagination. Intellectual visions (touches) on the other hand, are another matter entirely . . . for they are entirely spiritual, not requiring the gateway of our senses for entrance into our soul. Nothing is seen or heard; nevertheless, profound understanding of Creator or Creature is infused or imparted. One moment we didn’t “know,” the next we do . . . like its just “there.”

Don’t know if this helps or confuses, but for what it’s worth . . . there it is, at least how I understand it 🙂

Dave 🙂
 
By the way, DBT, would you care to respond to post 39? You don’t have to- I’d just like it :).
 
Lief Erikson
Cool! Wow . . . I didn’t know that the bodies of some saints never saw corruption until you just revealed that to me. That’s amazing. :eek: :eek: :cool:
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This is a pic I took of the incorrupt body of St. Bernadette

home.comcast.net/~jrichardocds/STBERN.gif

I also took a picture of St. Catherine, but don’t have it on line.

But here’s one from the web;

catholicapologetics.info/library/gallery/image024.jpg

St. Catherine’s eyes are open and they are blue.

The story goes that during the beginning of the French Revolution, a riot was about to break out in the streets. St. Catherine’s eyes opened and her hands turned upward. The even quickly spread out into the street and the curiosity over took the crowd as they moved into the chapel to see, and this stopped the riot.

Jim
 
Lief_Erikson said:
By the way, DBT, would you care to respond to post 39? You don’t have to- I’d just like it :).
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Hi Lief -

Well, my initial thought is that God is working in your life in some pretty remarkable ways and I’m hesitant to say to much because I’d hate to stiffle the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Since you are recieving these type of communications, though, I would recomend finding a good spiritual director to talk things over with. Might be hard to come by . . . but they’re out there. Secondly, I’d start reading the writings of the Saints, particularily John and Teresa. No doubt you will find many “a-ha” moments in a work like “Interior Castle” . . . probably even shout to yourself “yes that’s it!” from time to time 🙂 And a work like St. John’s “Ascent of Mt. Carmel” will be particularily helpful understanding the various types of visions, locutions, revelations, why we recieve them, and what to do about them.

And perhaps a good starting point would be Fr. Dubay’s “Fire Within,” which is basically an overview to the teachings of John and Teresa. I suspect his chapter “What is contemplation” as well as his discussion of the various stages (purgative, illuminative, unitive) and states (prayer of quiet, union etc) will be very helpful. And he is wonderful putting the reader at ease about the fact that visions/locutions do in fact occur in “ordinary” people . . . while helping us keep a proper balance and perspective about it all.

I’m not sure if this helps . . . but if you have a specific comment/question please feel free to PM and I’ll do the best I can to answer. 🙂

Peace be with you,
Dave. 🙂

PS - Regarding your question about the 6th dwelling: St. Teresa discusses two things here - extraordinary phenomena like visions/locustions as well as the interior trials souls endure - her version of St. John’s night of spirit. In order for one to pass on to the 7th dwelling (transforming union), the soul will endure interior trials of some type since that is essentially our final purification when all weakness and imperfections are purified through the dark fire of contemplation. Attachment to spiritual communications could be one such example of what is purged.

However, not all souls moving to perfection here on earth recieve the mystical graces she describes in the 6th dwelling . . . He gives those to whom He sees fit. So this part might not be applicable to all souls.

In fact, one need not even be a contemplative in the traditional sense to be brought to the final dwelling place. What is critically important to eveyone, though, is her discussion of the union of wills in the 5th dwelling. We must all seek His will in all times and circumstances, just as JimROcds said earlier.
 
DBT said:
Let’s think of it this way: an imaginative vision is something we see with our “inner eye” . . . in our mind. Importantly, it’s not like a photograph; rather, if the vision is of a person he or she appears as if alive. Likewise, a locution is a word, or brief series of words, heard with our “inner ear” . . . again, our mind. And typically the voice is not our own. When authentic, they take on the characteristics previously described.

And these events typically occur, but not always, when one is in the midst of contemplative prayer . . . when there is some degree of absorption of the faculties at work . . . which makes us receptive for such divine communications. To Father Dubay’s point, for those drawn to contemplative prayer, locutions are not necessarily an uncommon occurance. They come suddenly, and unexpectedly usually giving comfort such as “Be not afraid” or “it’s all true,” just to give a couple likely examples.

However, the important thing is that these visions and locutions are not entirely spiritual . . . since they are perceived by our senses, in this case our imagination. Intellectual visions (touches) on the other hand, are another matter entirely . . . for they are entirely spiritual, not requiring the gateway of our senses for entrance into our soul. Nothing is seen or heard; nevertheless, profound understanding of Creator or Creature is infused or imparted. One moment we didn’t “know,” the next we do . . . like its just “there.”

Don’t know if this helps or confuses, but for what it’s worth . . . there it is, at least how I understand it 🙂

Dave 🙂
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Pardon my question. Can a locutions be heard when you’re asleep like hearing a person telling you “Be not afraid” or “it’s all true,” or locutions only happen while awake?
 
Thanks for the advice, DBT. I think I will read from the mystics. Certainly that’s an important step in my Catholic education, if nothing else ;). Though I think it will help me spiritually, too.

I think you’re right that I probably should find a spiritual director soon.

As it happens, by the way, last night, after our conversation, I asked the Lord to tell me if you were right and I wrong about it being a bad idea to seek spiritual experiences. An hour or so later I found myself watching a late night fiction movie which “coincidentally” happened to be about a spiritual thrill seeker who went to a haunted house to get extraordinary experiences and it ended up being a disaster; she got killed.

I, of course, would never do something stupid like she was doing (seeking what the Devil has to offer rather than the Lord), but on the other hand, the message of the movie seemed to be that seeking spiritual experiences is dangerous. Which is, of course, directly applicable to our conversation.

I don’t believe in coincidences like this coming right after prayers for answers; they tend to be my Lord speaking ;). So I think you’re right.

😦
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Anlar:
Pardon my question. Can a locutions be heard when you’re asleep like hearing a person telling you “Be not afraid” or “it’s all true,” or locutions only happen while awake?
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I know that people can receive messages from the Lord, including phrases or words, through dreams. I don’t know if those qualify as locutions . . . :confused:

I probably shouldn’t even be responding :D. Lol. I’m too uneducated still in this subject! 😃
 
Anlar said:
Pardon my question. Can a locutions be heard when you’re asleep like hearing a person telling you “Be not afraid” or “it’s all true,” or locutions only happen while awake?
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Well, in a sense a deep contemplative state, where these things often occur, is like “spiritual sleep” . . . that is our faculties (intellect, will and memory) have been at least partially suspended by God. We are open and receptive to communications at such times, so I would suppose them occurring during “natural sleep” isn’t out of the question . . . there’s a certain parallel there. And scripture often mentions this type of thing occuring during sleep. Most of the time, though, I’ve seen these matters discussed in the context of contemplative prayer itself . . . so I guess I don’t have an exact answer.

But regardless of when and how locutions occur, the key, of course, is what’s the source . . . God, our imagination or the devil. That’s where discernment comes into play and where a good spiritual director would be very helpful . . . after all, I’m just a guy typing away on the internet.🙂 Finally, I highly recomend Fr. Dubay’s “Fire Within” as a very good starting point on all of this if anyone would like to look into it further.

Dave 🙂
 
Lief_Erikson said:
I don’t believe in coincidences like this coming right after prayers for answers; they tend to be my Lord speaking 😉
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One of the very first things my former spiritual director told me is “there’s no such thing as coincidences.” 🙂

Dave
 
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