A Vision

[Anlar]

Thanks DBT

I just wonder if the devil can say “Do not be afraid”? That’s a strengthening words so how come this might come from the devil?
If it can happen in a dream it is also probable that a person might not only say words to you but that you may be in a dream land or looking at some other stuff aside from the person?

Is there an e-book of Fire Within?

 

[DBT]

I just wonder if the devil can say “Do not be afraid”? That’s a strengthening words so how come this might come from the devil?
If it can happen in a dream it is also probable that a person might not only say words to you but that you may be in a dream land or looking at some other stuff aside from the person?

Is there an e-book of Fire Within?

Hi Anlar -

Well certainly the devil can pose as an angel of light. True communications always bring out humility in the recipient and they foster peace, calm and certainty. Comunications directly from the devil or our own imagination do none of these things . . . even if the message is “good.” And I think there’s still a certain risk even when we do recieve true comunications, for the devil can manipulate us by playing on our pride by creating a sense of specialness or worthiness . . . and a desiring of more. These are the types of things addressed by St. John of the Cross in the links provided earlier in this thread. Summarizing his teaching, some of the signs that point toward authenticity were touched upon back in post #48 . . . maybe that will help?

To your other question, I pretty sure “Fire Within” is only available in book form.

Finally, if any of these types of things are happening to you the best course of action is to speak to a priest.

Good talking to you and I hope this helps . . .
Dave.

 

[Anlar]

Thanks so much for answering my questions DBT

I do have a dream about it once, it was years ago though. The words “Do not be afraid” does not trouble me, it is the other stuff in the dream because it tells about vocation. I don’t know if it’s the will of God or not… maybe just trying to disturb me.

It’s really best to talk to a priest or any religious person who knows about things like this. In my case, it’s very unusual to approach a priest and talk about it. Everyone will get shock even myself…

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Is it wrong to desire a vision? I am holding onto my faith, but want it to shine like it once had. Sometimes I wish God, the Virgin Mary, a Saint or an Angel would appear to comfort me. I guess it’s a selfish desire. I just miss that God high I used to have quite often. And I understand that usually when God appears to you, it’s for a very important reason, and the visioner suffers. But I’d take that over lonliness and despair.

It depends on your intent my friend. It sounds like you just want to be close to God and have Him show you He is there and willing to come to you. It’s only selfish if you want to exalt yourself to be able to tell others that you can do such things.

You’re dark warrior - I’m mystic warrior How funny is that!

There are many nights that I pray the rosary and ask the Blessed Mother Mary to hold me and console me in my darkest moments. I ask the Lord Jesus to be with me and for my guardian angels to protect me.

I would encourage you to pray, especially the rosary and the St. Michael chaplet and the Our Father frequently. These prayers bring you closer to God. You will feel close to God instead of seeing visions and this seems like what you are after.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be near God and seek His face, especially if you need healing and comfort. I pray that God my Father, my Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit would fill you with love and comfort. May the Blessed Virgin Mary dry your tears and shine a light into your very soul, filling you with everything God has to offer you.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I don’t want to go to Heaven to have fun, I just want to be next to God, resting forever. Even if it means I must sleep, as long as I’m beside His feet, I’ll be at peace.

Amen to that.

I’m sorry my name offends you, though I’m not being immature, it’s the state I feel. “Dark” is not nessacarily bad, though my darkness is within my heart, and I long for God to release it. If you have suffered like I, in body and especially mind, you’d understand.

May your darkness be turned into light and may your light shine before men that they may glorify our Father in Heaven.

No miraculous medal is going to give me peace, only God’s glory, only a humble heart.

That’s true. The medal would help you though.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Seeking something supernatural and calling yourself the Dark Warrior???
The is a level of youth or immaturity here!

I wonder whether to take you seriously or pass
the issue.​

Well, the history of mysticism is filled with those
who werent very holy wishing for the supernatural,visions and special messages to come to them. People who arent very holy are used and manipulated by the Devil and those people make themselves receptice to the false messages, fake miracles and the like that the Devil can make happen as much as an Angel can do.
Some make themselves very complicit with the Devil
and these people do not go to heaven.

On the other hand, being a holy mystic or one that
actually receives messages from God or the Angels will actually open you up to more attacks from the Devil. If you are special to God , in that way, then you are more of a target.

You dont seem like a strong person yet in Christianity. You should not want anything special in the way of visions and messages. The more we receive the more is expected. Soldier on.

I do suggest the ‘Miraculous Medal’, google that, get
one and get it blessed,wear it, and say the inscribed prayer. This medal was my first step towards getting immense help from God. Truly!

Wow, you could tell all of that from two short posts by Dark Warrior? Pheweee!! You’re good You don’t know him. Neither do I. Instead of bashing him, why don’t you ask him more questions about his spirituality to get the real picture?

Wow, and even proclaiming that some people become complicit with the Devil through such things and don’t go to Heaven? Maybe you have the gift of discernment - I don’t know. Do you?

Doing anything for God will make one a target for the Devil, whether it’s feeding the hungry, praying or anything else. If you don’t have a target on your back from the enemy that means you must be in league with him. Sound logical? Seems like your theology is backwards

By all means, shake the dust off your feet and sit with the Pharisees on your side of the street. Leave this poor guy alone for goodness sake.

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’ll make it very clear.
I am here in these forums to dispense Catholic advise.
Advise was related and ignored by ‘Dark Warrior’ who I later discovered that on their profile for religion they list ‘Theist’…

LOL. Your “advice” was peppered with insults and you expect him to be receptive?

this is the ‘Catholic Living’-‘Spirituality’ forum.
You should be Catholic here, or open to Catholic teaching else your on your own program and your wasting my time and everyones else who types a lenghty and considerate reply containing Catholic teaching/thought!

Your replies were rude, insulting and don’t resemble the graciousness and mercy that is such a large part of the Catholic faith. DW mentioned the Blessed Virgin Mary. I took that as being open to Catholic spirituality - which has a deep, deep devotion to spirituality - unlike what we have in many protestant churches.

Its not the ‘Anything Spirituality OR I’m doing it my way’ forum. If you think it is, then your just yanking
everyones chain! There are other more appropriate
forums on Catholic.com for the kind of communication you are seeking.

Seems like you are the only one who took DW’s posts this way. Maybe that should tell you something. Simply rude.

MW

 

[InLight247]

Dave (DBT),please help me understand these:

If a person has the gift of vision, and can see God, does it mean the person is in beatific vision?

When Fr. Dubay’s book talks about the gift of vision is not rare, and list the various check points, what kind of vision was he talking about?

Would God give a person beatific vision without letting the person going through any nights(sense and spirit) ?

Thanks.

 

[DBT]

Dave (DBT),please help me understand these:

If a person has the gift of vision, and can see God, does it mean the person is in beatific vision?

When Fr. Dubay’s book talks about the gift of vision is not rare, and list the various check points, what kind of vision was he talking about?

Would God give a person beatific vision without letting the person going through any nights(sense and spirit) ?
Thanks.

Hi Inlight -

No, imaginary visions and the beatific vision are not the same thing. An imaginary vision is something “seen” in our mind - for example, Christ, Mary a Saint and so on. Likewise, the locutions being discussed are words “heard” in our mind. Both often occur during the suspension of the faculties that comes during deep contemplative prayer . . . when we are susceptible to such things . . . which is why Fr. Dubay says they aren’t necessarily rare occurances.

And it is precisely because these communications are percieved by our senses (either bodily or spiritual) that St. John urges caution. Fr. Dubay talks about this at some length in the Locutions and Visions chapter of Fire Within. The point he makes is that imaginary visions, even when true, lack “proportion” to God as He actually is; meaning they are more like a pale or dim representation of a real Truth . . . and not God in His actual presence as we understand the beatific vision. Thus, nothing percieved by our senses actually “is” God eventhough it might be “from” God. In the beatific vision (after death) we will be with Him as He actually is and our awareness of Him will not be limited by what our human minds and bodies can sense, interpret and process . . . as is the case with imaginary visions.

Does that help?? I think I just might be muddying it up . . . these are very difficult concepts to try and put into words.

Dave

PS. To your last point, if we look at St. Teresa’s explanation of visions they most often occur timing wise (if God chooses to grant them) at the same point in the spiritual life as the night of spirit (6th dwelling in Interior Castle). Again, the beatific vision is after death.

Here’s the various types of visions that she discusses:

• Corporeal visions (seen with bodily eyes)
• Imaginary visions (seen with our “spiritual” eyes)
• Intellectual visions (nothing seen; but understanding of truths is “known” . . . like scales removed from our eyes) In this case, seeing means knowing.

---

• Beatific vision (in Heaven)

 

[Lief_Erikson]

That was useful, but I could use a little more clarity on imaginary visions. Are those experiences where an image simply appears in your imagination, but it’s still completely in the mind and not seen visibly in front of us?

 

[DBT]

That was useful, but I could use a little more clarity on imaginary visions. Are those experiences where an image simply appears in your imagination, but it’s still completely in the mind and not seen visibly in front of us?

That’s pretty much how I would describe it.

Father Dubay says it this way: the more “exterior” the vision the more unreliable and less trustworthy it generally is and the greater need for discernment.

For example, with corporeal visions we are seeing something outside ourselves with our bodily eyes . . so it is the most exterior it can be. In the same manner I’m seeing my computer monitor now as I type this post, or the people walking outside my window, is how these type of visions are “seen.”

An imaginary vision is more interior because, as you say, “an image simply appears” in your mind/imagination. Unlike bodily visions, these are “seen” inside us. Importantly, St. Teresa teaches these images are “living” and not static like a photograph.

And intellectual visions are the most interior possible; therefore the most trustworthy. Some truth is just made known in the deepest center of our soul; however nothing is actually seen as just described. Taking some creative liscense here, I’d say St. Therese’s sudden and unexpected understanding of “My vocation is love” where everything for her just fell into place could have very likely come through an intellectual vision, or “touch” in St. John’s terms. One moment confusion . . . the next clarity and insight that could fill volumes.

Dave

 

[Joysong]

Having written about imaginary visions in her autobiography, we will not find much in the Interior Castle. This chapter is her best explanation in helping us understand them, and shows how the Lord gradually increased her capacity to receive.

One day, when I was at prayer, the Lord was pleased to reveal to me nothing but His hands, the beauty of which was so great as to be indescribable. This made me very fearful, as does every new experience that I have when the Lord is beginning to grant me some supernatural favour. A few days later I also saw that Divine face, which seemed to leave me completely absorbed. I could not understand why the Lord revealed Himself gradually like this since He was later to grant me the favour of seeing Him wholly, until at length I realized that His Majesty was leading me according to my natural weakness. May He be blessed for ever, for so much glory all at once would have been more than so base and wicked a person could bear: knowing this, the compassionate Lord prepared me for it by degrees.

Those who know better than I say that the type of vision already described [an [COLOR=“Blue”]intellectual vision that she had described previously]

is nearer perfection than this [the imaginary vision she is now describing], while this [interior imaginary vision] in its turn is much more so than those which are seen with the eyes of the body [exterior corporal vision]. The last-named type, they say, is the lowest and the most open to delusions from the devil.

St. John of the Cross explains this progression from the lower to higher and gives the reasons for Our Lord acting in this manner.

And thus God brings man to perfection according to the way of man’s own nature, working from what is lowest and most exterior up to what is most interior and highest.

1. It is in this way, then, that God instructs the soul and makes it more spiritual, communicating spirituality to it first of all by means of outward and palpable things, adapted to sense, on account of the soul’s feebleness and incapacity, so that, by means of the outer husk of those things which in themselves are good, the spirit may make particular acts and receive so many spiritual communications that it may form a habit as to things spiritual, and may acquire actual and substantial spirituality, which is completely removed from every sense.

To this, as we have said, the soul cannot attain except very gradually, and in its own way – that is, by means of sense – to which it has ever been attached.

And here we find St. John’s famous prudent explanation about not receiving supernatural apprehensions from God. I do except, however, as does St. John elsewhere in the book, gifts of contemplation which should be recalled and are of benefit to the soul in enkindling love for God.

But, when it is a question of imaginary visions, or other supernatural apprehensions, which can enter the senses [not the spirit

as is received in contemplation] without the co-operation of man’s free will, I say that at no time and season must it receive them, whether the soul be in the state of perfection, or whether in a state less perfect – not even though they come from God.
(Read the chapter on line for fullness of his teaching.)

 

[DBT]

Thank you, Joysong

Dave

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Having written about imaginary visions in her autobiography, we will not find much in the Interior Castle. This chapter is her best explanation in helping us understand them, and shows how the Lord gradually increased her capacity to receive.

St. John of the Cross explains this progression from the lower to higher and gives the reasons for Our Lord acting in this manner.

And here we find St. John’s famous prudent explanation about not receiving supernatural apprehensions from God. I do except, however, as does St. John elsewhere in the book, gifts of contemplation which should be recalled and are of benefit to the soul in enkindling love for God.

You made me cry!

 

[Dark_Warrior]

It depends on your intent my friend. It sounds like you just want to be close to God and have Him show you He is there and willing to come to you. It’s only selfish if you want to exalt yourself to be able to tell others that you can do such things.

You’re dark warrior - I’m mystic warrior How funny is that!

There are many nights that I pray the rosary and ask the Blessed Mother Mary to hold me and console me in my darkest moments. I ask the Lord Jesus to be with me and for my guardian angels to protect me.

I would encourage you to pray, especially the rosary and the St. Michael chaplet and the Our Father frequently. These prayers bring you closer to God. You will feel close to God instead of seeing visions and this seems like what you are after.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be near God and seek His face, especially if you need healing and comfort. I pray that God my Father, my Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit would fill you with love and comfort. May the Blessed Virgin Mary dry your tears and shine a light into your very soul, filling you with everything God has to offer you.

Peace…

MW

Hi Mystic Warrior. Seems we’re both warriors. My battle is against myself. I wish the Lord through you (since you’re called a ‘warrior’) could slay the darkness in me. I miss my faith deeply.

P.S. I noticed your first post regarding RB2 is gone. Did you delete it? Just curious.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hi Mystic Warrior. Seems we’re both warriors. My battle is against myself. I wish the Lord through you (since you’re called a ‘warrior’) could slay the darkness in me. I miss my faith deeply.

Why don’t you join us?

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Why don’t you join us?

Join you where? What do you mean my friend?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I mean join us in the Catholic faith.

 

[Dark_Warrior]

I mean join us in the Catholic faith.

I know my profile says “Theist,” but I am Catholic

It’s a long story.

And thanks.

 

[InLight247]

Thank you Dave and Carole.

I read both of your posts multiple times, they are very helpful. Thanks.

I also re-read the highlighted part of my “Fire Within” page 243 – 270.
Still, at least one more point to clarify.
When we talk about “imaginary” vision, we don’t mean those visions are imagined, correct? If it is imagined, it cannot be a vision, it is an imagination. Vision has to come to us, infused, out of our own control, not created by our preferred imagination. Just want to confirm.

Since God communicates with each one at one’s level, whatever image of God we see in our vision, it is not the true image of God, it is just a remote representation of God, revealed to the person for the sake of love and strengthening, to fulfill God’s purpose.