A World without Religion?

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youtube.com/watch?v=dQ5QG3MUTtg

Richard Dawkins in this 9 minute interview says a world without religion would have as a high a moral ground and be better than a world with religion.

Agree or disagree? Your thoughts?
 
I disagree. All one has to do is look at history where non-religious based governments were in control like Hitler’s Germany, Stalins Russia, Mao Zedongs China, or Bashar al-Assad Syria, to disprove that a world without religion doesn’t equate to a higher moral ground.
 
I think a world without religion has the potential to have an even higher moral ground than a world with religion.

First, because people can and will understand and see that they can love and be good to each other without the threat of punishment if they do not.

Second, all the negatives of religion–the hate or exclusion or putting down of those who believe differently than you–will be removed, and we can truly be as one group working together. Religion has often* divided* people instead of bringing them together.

Third, we will concentrate on building a more loving and better world today, here, together…instead of waiting to have it after death.

The methods and results under Hitler, Stalin, and Mao etc were not necessarily because of a lack of religion.
Hitler, as we know, was brought up Catholic and engraved the Nazi belt buckles with the phrase, “God is with us”.
Stalin was brought up Orthodox, I think.
If these leaders were morally twisted and/or carried out harmful regimes, it was not necessarily due to lack of religion.There can be a number of factors for this.

And we’ve seen religious leaders in the past who have been very harmful to people–there have been several popes in the past, for example, who have been extremely immoral.

And I bet there are Atheist leaders who would treat their people and other countries with respect and reason.

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Mao was communist, communists think religion is harmful. Mao killed like 40-100 million people. In communism you can do literally anything if the end is good. It would be perfectly fine to starve millions of people so people don’t revolt against the state. They have little value for individual lives.

But if there is no threat of punishment won’t there be a greater threat of anarchy? If you receive no punishment, what’s stopping people from killing each other, stealing, etc.?

Hitler hated Christians but most of Europe was Christian he couldn’t wipe them out easily.

What is the motive for loving others without religion? It’s a very natural reaction to hate your enemies and seek revenge. Do you honestly love everyone unconditionally for no reason?
 
When topics like this come up with atheists I like to count the homicides as a way to determine which system is less harmful.

Given that the atheists are the cause of more deaths in the last century, probably close to a billion from wars and abortions, than ALL OTHER IDEOLOGICAL SYSTEMS COMBINED, including Islam it is a clear indicator that we should run from secularism. In fact, the most peaceful countries in the have a relationship with the Catholic Church, I am referring mostly to Latina American countries.

Taking abortion into account with calculating the homicides, as does God and the Catholic Church as well, the US, the EU and China have become the most violent nations on this earth since they have increasingly divorced God from public life.
 
When topics like this come up with atheists I like to count the homicides as a way to determine which system is less harmful.

Given that the atheists are the cause of more deaths in the last century, probably close to a billion from wars and abortions, than ALL OTHER IDEOLOGICAL SYSTEMS COMBINED, including Islam it is a clear indicator that we should run from secularism. In fact, the most peaceful countries in the have a relationship with the Catholic Church, I am referring mostly to Latina American countries.

Taking abortion into account with calculating the homicides, as does God and the Catholic Church as well, the US, the EU and China have become the most violent nations on this earth since they have increasingly divorced God from public life.
Don’t forget places like North Korea where they kill you for disagreeing with the government.
 
Lucky you’re religious…
Oh my gosh that sounded terrible
I meant loving everyone. Like what’s the motive for loving people you don’t know, people who have hurt you, etc.

Without religion what is the natural motive to love others unconditionally? Isn’t it natural to hold grudges, want revenge, etc.?
 
Um, is it really possible for human beings to form a world without ‘religion’ - i.e. any form of belief whatsoever? 🤷
Absolutely…however, for those of you who celebrate this holiday…Merry Christmas.
 
Absolutely…however, for those of you who celebrate this holiday…Merry Christmas.
Well, granted, it could be possible for humans to form a society without the Western definition of what ‘religion’ is (whether or not it will hold up in the long run is another matter), but I’m more of the position that having some form of belief is part of human nature.
 
We got some Utopian society somewhere? The old regimes mentioned above had religions but the churches went underground. Still happens today. Blood baths have been carried out throughout the ages by both religious and atheists. I think a good example of what truly godless people act like are the people in the USA. Few are deeply faithful and most have no clue what the Church actually believes. They have nothing invested in a relation with God. Yet we are the murder capital of the world.
 
I’ll admit, when Dawkins says “a world without religion” I kinda get this vibe that he really means “a secular humanist / Western atheist world” - in other words, a world where everyone thinks pretty much like him.

And this is really my problem: many Westerners - theists or not - seem to, I don’t know how to put this, kinda have this assumption that the world revolves around their (Western) concepts. This can’t be helped - that’s the worldview they were brought up in. And to some extent, this is true: the West occupies a large niche in the modern world, so very often, the Western definition of things and view of the world become the ‘standard’. In our time, the West decides what words and concepts mean in the global arena. But the Western worldview is hardly the only worldview there is: not every people in the world share the Western perceptions of what things are. And just because the Western understanding of things has become pervasive does not necessarily mean that it is the single, ‘right’ or the ‘superior’ way to see the world.

So what concerns me is, Dawkins speaks of “a world without religion,” does that mean that we non-Westerners will have to conform to Dawkins’ - no, to modern Western perceptions - of what ‘religion’, ‘reason’ and ‘superstition’ are, of what ‘history’ and ‘myth’ are? I’m more of a person who think that diversity is one of the things that makes us human. That’s why I find the Borg in Star Trek scary. And to be frank, this prospect seems to me to be similar to that: it strips us humans of our individuality, of our ability to have different perspectives, of different ways of seeing the world. It’s just about as bad as Christian evangelists who force the Western understanding of Christianity into a tribe who have a different worldview than the Western - Greco-Roman - one.

Sorry for the rant. Please continue.

(P.S. Addressing the Christian angle: I’m in the camp that thinks that ‘Christianity’ is not automatically synonymous with the Western expression of it. Christianity may have influenced Western culture, and - but I do not think that the Western - Greco-Roman - understanding of Christianity is Christianity itself. That’s why I’m also kinda opposed to Christians who seem to act as if the Western - European - form of Christianity is the only ‘correct’ one.)
 
Mao was communist, communists think religion is harmful. Mao killed like 40-100 million people. In communism you can do literally anything if the end is good. It would be perfectly fine to starve millions of people so people don’t revolt against the state. They have little value for individual lives.

But if there is no threat of punishment won’t there be a greater threat of anarchy? If you receive no punishment, what’s stopping people from killing each other, stealing, etc.?

Hitler hated Christians but most of Europe was Christian he couldn’t wipe them out easily.

What is the motive for loving others without religion? It’s a very natural reaction to hate your enemies and seek revenge. Do you honestly love everyone unconditionally for no reason?
I remember this one comment made by someone on the internet: “No country in the world today can truly be considered ‘communist’.” I believe that’s true: the ideology of the so-called ‘communist’ countries (Leninism, Maoism, Marxism, North Korean Juche) are actually not communism per se - at least communism as Marx or Engels envisioned it. IMO no one had successfully implemented yet because it’s difficult if not impossible to pull out in actual practice. Communism may sound good on paper, but that’s exactly the problem with communism I think: it’s too good, too idealistic that it will not work as intended in real life. At best you’ll just end up with some bastardized version of it.

I’ll admit, I believe the observation made by some people is (partly) correct: beliefs of some kind - whether it be some established religion or some ideology such as ‘communism’ or Nazism - did and do play a role in historical atrocities. What I disagree with is the diagnosis - that belief or religion is in itself a bad thing which should be exterminated.

I view religion as being like a gun or a knife: they can be used to kill people, but can also be used for ‘good’, non-lethal purposes. It’s not really a gun’s fault that it was used to kill people; it is the person wielding it who is at fault. Or for another analogy, religion is like a medicine: it heals, but it can also kill (say, by overdose or by misdiagnosis). I like the medicine analogy better because of another point: just as overdosing on a drug is harmful and fatal, so is excessive belief in something to the point of fanaticism and zealotry harmful. And that, I believe is the cause of the problem.

I actually won’t say guys like Hitler or Stalin did not have any ‘belief’, as some people say: they did have beliefs and ideologies of their own, only they were so devoted to it with a blind fanaticism that they perpetrated horrible things, just as extreme devotion to their faith causes Muslim terrorists to oppose non-Muslims and commit suicide bombings. But just as it’s not really the medicine’s fault that it can kill people who overdose with it, I don’t think just that because people had done horrible things in the name of whatever religion or ideology they espoused means that ‘belief’ of any form whatsoever is automatically bad.

“In [Jorge’s] face, deformed by hatred of philosophy, I saw for the first time the portrait of the Antichrist, who does not come from the tribe of Judas, as his heralds have it, or from a far country. The Antichrist can be born from piety itself, from excessive love of God or of the truth, as the heretic is born from the saint and the possessed from the seer. Fear prophets, Adso, and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them. Jorge did a diabolical thing because he loved his truth so lewdly that he dared anything in order to destroy falsehood.”
  • The Name of the Rose
Faith is a good thing, and zeal for one’s beliefs is also good, but when you are so excessively passionate about your beliefs that you begin to cause harm to others, that’s when the trouble starts. But is your turning into a blind zealot religion’s fault? I think that that is just scapegoating. It’s like attributing the murders of a homicide to the gun he used.
 
As God is love and we are made in the Image and likeness of God religion is natural for those who have God in their lives. God gathers people together which is what religion does. The problem is when people seek to be their own ‘gods’ in the world and try to push God under the bus and they believe this is the natural course of action. So instead of walking humbly with God and being a part of Gods plan they try to make their own ‘unnatural’ way which can only lead to more Hitlers and Stalins in the world trying to make people the way they want to be instead of the way God meant them to be ‘In God’. We are Gods creatures just like every living thing on our planet and to be without God is like taking the very thing away that sustains us. It would be like uprooting plants out of soil, it’s only a matter of time until the plant would whither away.

Most successful nations like the US, and most especially the US, were formed upon Gods ‘natural’ principles of justice, fairness and freedom for all and it would be destructive to live our lives without God who is the source of all things scientific and spiritual in the world. This is how we walk humbly with God in all we do in life including most especially being a part of a religious group. God has always gathered societies together because we all need each other which gives us purpose in life. We see that in the Catholic Church this is done most beautifully as the largest charitable organization in the world. God means for us to help one another, that’s what it is to be a Christian. It’s not about us getting to heaven it’s about them… Blessed are the poor in spirit for there’s is the Kingdom of heaven. Us getting into heaven is only a byproduct of us helping others so it isn’t about us it’s about them getting into heaven. Christianity is about willing the good of the other before ourselves which is what ‘the world’ doesn’t do because it looks out for it’s self-interests first. If we are doing acts of kindness only for our rewards we’re not being motivated correctly.

Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
 
Yes, but being an Atheist doesn’t necessarily mean you are a communist.
These are two different, separate things.

Just because a person doesn’t believe a God exists, it doesn’t mean they will hurt people or have little value for individual lives.
These specific leaders may have. But there may be other reasons for that.

Of the top of my head…George Clooney’s an Atheist. Do you think that if he became President, he’d kill millions of people?
He may be an actor, but he’s also a good example of an Atheist who is active politically and humanistically to try and lessen violence and conflict in this world in countries like Sudan and Darfur, and help people in need, as he did for the victims of the Haiti earthquake.
He was given the Summit Peace Award from the Nobel Peace Prize Laureates in Rome and was named a Messenger of Peace at the United Nations.
This is someone who spends much of his time trying to make the world a more peaceful and loving place. And he’s an Atheist.
There are many more like him.

As I said, there are a lot of religious people who have, to use your wording, “little value for individual lives”:
Case in point, the ones who flew their planes into the World Trade Center.
They were VERY religious.
Case in point: those who killed during the crusades.
I could go on and on.
These God-believing people murdered innocent people* in the name of religion.*
In these cases, we can actually say that religion helped make them immoral, instead of the other way around.

So what’s stopping people from killing people, you ask? It’s not religion, it seems.
And lack of religion doesn’t make someone kill someone else.
You say that “In communism you can do literally anything if the end is good”. Seems that way for many who are religious, too.

Of course we would have and do have the threat of punishment for doing wrong and for hurting people. This is why we have laws and fines and jails. Punishment for crimes does not have to be religion-related.
If it did, we’d be stoning children to death in the middle of town because they disobeyed their parents, as per the bible.

What is the motive for loving people without religion!!!
Let me ask you: Do you know any Atheists? And if so, do they love people?
Ask them why and let us know the answer…

.
I used communism as an example because they share your view that taking out religion makes things better. They still have killed way more than 3000 people, and they have killed much more than those fighting in the crusades. They did it for the state.

My questions wasn’t if they loved anyone (family, friends, people who are nice to them, etc.) because everyone loves someone. What is the natural motive for loving your enemies? If you have one, great. Not everyone would have one.

“You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense.”
-Joseph Stalin

He might’ve been raised Orthodox, but he certainly didn’t hold onto that later. He punished anyone who went against the state. He killed 4 times as many people as Hitler. When Hitler was defeated some Russians wanted to stay in the concentration camps because it was better than the Gulags (I think that’s what it was called) back in Russia. Religion did not turn him immoral.
 
I think a world without religion has the potential to have an even higher moral ground than a world with religion.

First, because people can and will understand and see that they can love and be good to each other without needing the threat of eternal punishment if they do not.

Second, all the negatives of religion–the hate or exclusion or putting down of those who believe differently than you–will be removed, and we can truly be as one group working together. Religion has often* divided* people instead of bringing them together.

Third, we will concentrate on building a more loving and better world today, here, together…instead of waiting to have it after death.

The methods and results under Hitler, Stalin, and Mao etc were not necessarily because of a lack of religion.
Hitler, as we know, was brought up Catholic and engraved the Nazi belt buckles with the phrase, “God is with us”.
Stalin was brought up Orthodox, I think.
If these leaders were morally twisted and/or carried out harmful regimes, it was not necessarily due to lack of religion.There can be a number of factors for this.

And we’ve seen religious leaders in the past who have been very harmful to people–there have been several popes in the past, for example, who have been extremely immoral.

And I bet there are Atheist leaders who would treat their people and other countries with respect and reason.

.
if you have many religions in one place (like the U.S.) then that might divide some people. Religion can help unify people if it is the same religion.

Augustus Caesar tried reviving the pagan religion of the pagan gods, not because he believed in them, but because he thought it would give everyone something in common and help unify them.

Those popes were not following their own religion. It is not like religion taught them to be evil, they obviously ignored it.
 
We don’t need religion but belief.
If belief is all we need than the bible need only say two words… "just believe’ but it doesn’t it teaches us a whole lot more about our faith… Religion brings people together in order that they do the work of God more effectively and proclaim the good news to the World.

St. Paul explains it as he was talking about the “body of Christ”.

1 Corinthians 12: 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

The more excellent way is to work as a ‘team’ = the Church. United we stand, divided we fall. The evil one means to separate people that’s where the term ‘divination’ comes from. But God Gathers people, to be one in the Lord. This is what we need. It may seem exclusionary but at the same time it is very inclusionary as all are welcomed to become part of the Universal Church but we also try to break barriers down between people because barriers hinder peace which is why as Christians we do peace missionary work. Breaking down barriers is part of Catholic social teaching in order to bring more peace into the world.

Ronald Regan said it very well “Gorbechev tear down the wall!”

What was Jesus prayer?

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
 
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