A World without Religion?

[Al_Moritz]

Yes, everyone is capable of good, both atheists and theists. The question is not whether they are capable of good, but whether they are capable of being saved. The theist is capable of being saved, though many theists doubtless are not saved because they die with great sins on their souls and are unrepentant.

But the atheist who has denied the God who has offered himself to him, and dies therefore unrepentant because he doesn’t believe there is anyone he must repent to, is likely to be denied his salvation. This is what we are told in scripture, which you cited.

But of course Al will say that Jesus didn’t really mean what he said, and that my interpretation must be wrong because his (Al’s) must be right. And Al will invoke Pope Francis as being on his side against Scripture and the saying of Jesus you cited above, which is about as plain and obvious as a saying can be.

Then Al will call me a fundamentalist Protestant, just as inocente has called me a raging relativist.

Go choose between what Jesus says and what Al says Pope Francis says, though Al never gives us the precise sentence he means to be Pope Francis’ refutation of what Jesus says:

"But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father." Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12

So Al, please give us the sentence where Pope Francis refutes Jesus. Thank you.

Has Pope Francis also refuted Mark and 2nd Timothy?

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Of course the debate that we had before this post of yours was never about atheist’s salvation, and about the passages of scripture that you cited in this post and which you didn’t mention before in your discussion with me. The debate was about Psalms 14:1 and if atheists can do any good. And here Pope Francis affirms they can. You shifted the goalposts and along the way gravely distorted my position.

But by now I am used to these constant willful distortions of yours – you applied them repeatedly in the discussion Intelligent Design vs. evolution as well. No surprise here.

If your distortions are not malicious, which I would hope, then you should avoid them – they do make the impression of being precisely that, intended or not.

And for the record: no, atheists can’t go to heaven as atheists.** We agree.** Surprised?

(But that I went through the pains of actually linking to a Catholic site when it came to what the Pope said, and not to the Huffington post or NYT or similar, where they distorted what the Pope actually said, must have evaded your attention as well (shrug)).

 

[Al_Moritz]

I should clarify my statement, “no, atheists can’t go to heaven as atheists.” (Emphasis added.)

Once atheists are starting to seriously and “with a sincere heart” search for God (c.f. Catechism of the Catholic Church), which may qualify them for salvation, they are not atheists anymore, strictly speaking.

 

[BrassAnkles]

I should clarify my statement, “no, atheists can’t go to heaven as atheists.” (Emphasis added.)

Once atheists are starting to seriously and “with a sincere heart” search for God (c.f. Catechism of the Catholic Church), which may qualify them for salvation, they are not atheists anymore, strictly speaking.

They could also die as atheists and go to heaven if they never received the Gospel adequately but followed their conscience, that is what I believe is termed a baptism of desire. That would be difficult in today’s technology age but not so difficult for Chinese or Russians under the old regime.

Also, you state that not all atheism is bad, and I would disagree, as anything that rejects the Creator can’t be good, although individual atheist can obviously have good qualities.

Finally, you have state regarding abortion that the issue is gray, which the Catholic Church does not see it that way. In fact no other organization works hardly and more diligently worldwide to remove this scourge from the earth. While atheists and “Christians” have abortions what is not clear is how many Christian really believe it is wrong, given Planned Parenthood documented methods of deceit to convince young girls that they are only having a “blob of tissue” removed. Furthermore, even though whites are a clear majority in the US the majority of abortions are had by minorities, 66% (2007 from 2012 Census). Planned Parenthood has always targeted minorities in the inner city areas where the breakdown of the family is more prominent and education level among minorities is no doubt among the lowest in the country. Given these facts it is not a stretch to assume the majority of the young women (<24) could identify themselves as Christian and still believe abortion is ok. After all, Obama said God bless Planned Parenthood.

Furthermore, abortion legalization is promoted rigorously here in Latin America and I can assure you there are no Orthodox Christians of any particular denomination running the helm at either the Planned Parenthood, UN, the International Planned Parenthood (Profamilia) of the various NGO’s funded by the US which are the major culprits of abortion being spread around the world. Therefore, there is no gray area when it comes to the fight to stop abortion or stop it from spreading; the Catholic Church is the number one defender of innocent life in the womb and are vehemently opposed by those who question God’s will and His perfection, if they even believe in Him at all, and who would promote abortion at all costs , including the truth.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Stalin may have ended up an Atheist, but his belief or non-belief in God may not be the reason he was the kind of leader he was.
These guys were power-hungry maniacs.
There have been religious leaders like that, too.

Christian communism wasn’t a small group.

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Anyone who has read Marxism would know there is no place for God in socialism, as such was completely incompatible with communism. Therefore, Stalin didn’t “gradually become” atheist, he was an atheist from the beginning, so you are probably thinking of Hitler.

As far as the comparison between deaths caused by Christians and atheist like Stalin and Mao the ones due to Christians** are not even worthy of mention from a statistical point of view.** That would be like saying your red car is actually silver because of a hood ornament.

 

[BrassAnkles]

LOL…rofl…

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Humanism is incompatible with abortion and thus atheism as it’s followers are the most ardent supporters.

 

[cena]

I’m not talking about the Catholic church in my post specifically, nor blaming it.
We are talking about Atheism vs. Theism.
Religion–all kinds and from all sides–has been used as a reason for many wars in and killing in the past and still is today.
Pick up the newspaper and you will see people being beheaded. You will see the wars in the middle east. You saw the NYC twin towers fall.
Religions are the springboard for much of the above.

The church, specifically, does not endorse this–not today.
But are you saying that at no time in the past has the church allowed fighting wars and killing human beings? If they were not in alignment with the church?

If I recall correctly, the bible actually quotes God telling the Joshua and the Israelites to exterminate entire groups of people–the Canaanites, for example, including innocent women and children–so they can take over their land.
That’s a pretty direct endorsement.

What I am saying is (and I think I’m repeating myself now from another thread)…is that religion nor lack of religion causes war.
People do.
An Atheist you know can be the kindest person who would never hurt a fly.
An uber-religious person you know could be insensitive and cruel and hurt people, even young children.
We’ve seen leaders in the past of both belief systems, and both personalities.

Some religions, though, have and do endorse harming others, methinks.
And if that is the case, then I do think it is true that there is harm caused in the name of religion that may not existed without it.

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And communism (not just taking out religion but trying to eliminate it ) has killed 130 million people under Stalin and Mao alone. If these two leaders didn’t have communism as their ideological system maybe they wouldn’t have done what they did. I have already said this but it goes both ways.

Jimmy Akin wrote a good explanation on the context of the Old Testament dealing with the story you talked about

 

[BrassAnkles]

Phew!
Reinforcements!

I thought people joined this forum to learn about the Catholic faith, not join a group of people to undermine it.

 

[cena]

I am looking forward to the abandonment of fairy tales and embracing of humanism that is underway.

I am looking forward to the abandonment of the idea that stuff suddenly came out of nothing without a creator because that violates the first law of thermodynamics.

 

[BrassAnkles]

I am looking forward to the abandonment of the idea that stuff suddenly came out of nothing without a creator because that violates the first law of thermodynamics.

 

[Bradski]

In fact no other organization works hardly and more diligently worldwide to remove this scourge from the earth.

Let’s use some rough figures. There are about 1.37 million abortions in the US. And as we saw earlier, Catholics represent nearly a third of that, which is let’s say 400,000. There are nearly 80 million Catholics in the US and let’s say that the female half are of an age to have an abortion - 40 million (the figure must be a lot smaller).

Over the last ten years, Catholic women will have been responsible for 4 million abortions. That’s 10% of all Catholic women. And you say you are doing a good job.

If the local police chief said ‘no other police force works harder or more diligently to reduce the drug problem’ and you found that 10% of his officers were convicted drug dealers, what would you think?

If the local Republican leader said ‘no party works harder or more diligently to reduce the illegal immigration problem’ and you found that 10% of his party were illegal immigrants themselves, what would you think?

If the local schools superintendent said ‘no organisation works harder or more diligently to reduce illiteracy’ and you found that 10% of his teachers could not read or write, what would you think?

I know what I’d think. I’d think that these people needed to get their own house in order before they started preaching to everyone else.

 

[cena]

Many posters on this site have often complained that the general public has the wrong impression of and inaccurate information re Catholicism.

Well, I have to say that most people on this site have a completely wrong understanding of Atheism and what it means to be an Atheist.

To be an Atheist means one simple, simple thing: it’s not believing a God exists.
That’s all.

It’s got nothing to do with politics–an Atheist can be a Republican.
It’s got nothing to do with the abortion issue–an Atheist can be pro-life.
It’s got nothing to do with same-sex marriage or economics or how polite or loving a person is or how giving or not a person is or how good or moral a person is.
It doesn’t make a leader kill millions of people.
It doesn’t mean they demand everyone be Atheists, too.
It doesn’t mean they hate Theists.

Atheism isn’t a worldview or an ideological system. It is a position on a single issue and that is whether or not a God exists.
That’s all.

Whatever else a person thinks or believes or does as an Atheist is something else.

Unlike what I see often on this forum, when people ask whether it is “permissible” to do or think or believe or say things if they are a Catholic…this does not happen when you are an Atheist.
The rest is up to you.

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I used communism as an example because those people were not merely secularist (taking out religion from public) but atheist taking out religion in general which is the idea of this thread

 

[Bradski]

Hmmm. That depends.
What country are we in? What city? And what part of the city and which street? And which religious bibles are they toting?
And what religion are we in the scenario.
OH…and…what century are we in?

I’m surprised no-one has quoted Hitch on this (then again, not many people would have read a lot of what he has written).

Hitchens addresses a hypothetical question he was asked on a panel with radio host Dennis Prager: if he were alone in an unfamiliar city at night, and a group of strangers began to approach him, would he feel safer, or less safe, knowing that these men had just come from a prayer meeting? Hitchens answers,

"Just to stay within the letter ‘B’, I have actually had that experience in Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade, Bethlehem and Baghdad. In each case … I would feel immediately threatened if I thought that the group of men approaching me in the dusk were coming from a religious observance.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Many posters on this site have often complained that the general public has the wrong impression of and inaccurate information re Catholicism.

Well, I have to say that most people on this site have a completely wrong understanding of Atheism and what it means to be an Atheist.

To be an Atheist means one simple, simple thing: it’s not believing a God exists.
That’s all.

It’s got nothing to do with politics–an Atheist can be a Republican.
It’s got nothing to do with the abortion issue–an Atheist can be pro-life.
It’s got nothing to do with same-sex marriage or economics or how polite or loving a person is or how giving or not a person is or how good or moral a person is.
It doesn’t make a leader kill millions of people.
It doesn’t mean they demand everyone be Atheists, too.
It doesn’t mean they hate Theists.

Atheism isn’t a worldview or an ideological system. It is a position on a single issue and that is whether or not a God exists.
That’s all.

Whatever else a person thinks or believes or does as an Atheist is something else.

Unlike what I see often on this forum, when people ask whether it is “permissible” to do or think or believe or say things if they are a Catholic…this does not happen when you are an Atheist.
The rest is up to you.

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By far the majority of atheists support abortion, which accounts for 40 million deaths of children every year.

Abortion accounts for almost as many deaths AS ALL OTHER CAUSES COMBINED (58 MILLION).

numberofabortions.com/

Planned Parenthood was started by an atheist, Margaret Sanger, and has been promoting abortion worldwide since the 70’s. Since then it is estimated some 1.5 billion children have been killed. Margaret Sanger stated:

The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.

ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC068.HTM

Atheists are also the most ardent supporter of abortion and it’s promulgation and are currently working to legalize abortion in Latin America where the majority population is Catholic.

 

[jimmy]

Both religious and non religious people do good and evil. The difference is in the fact that principles are found in religion, atheism has none other than science. For atheism, science is the highest good. If it furthers science, then it is good.

Abortion is one example of the lack of principles in atheism. Since you can’t prove that it is a ‘person’ (which is an ambiguous term to start with unless you have a religious philosophy) then you can kill it. The reality is that it is no different than the holocaust or any other genocide. An atheist can’t really say Hitler and the Nazi’s were wrong for killing Jews. Atleast a Christian can admit there are sinners and evil in the world, even if he is one of the sinners. An atheist is forced to admit that there is no difference between life and death. Murderer is just a term we use for people we don’t like.

Peter Singer the ‘great’ ethicist points out the logical fallacy of distinguishing between abortion and murder by advocating for abortion for the first few years after birth. Birth is an arbitrary point. Before and after that point there is no difference. So he advocates for post birth abortion for the first few years of a baby’s life because it hasn’t fully developed its brain.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Let’s use some rough figures. There are about 1.37 million abortions in the US. And as we saw earlier, Catholics represent nearly a third of that, which is let’s say 400,000. There are nearly 80 million Catholics in the US and let’s say that the female half are of an age to have an abortion - 40 million (the figure must be a lot smaller).

Over the last ten years, Catholic women will have been responsible for 4 million abortions. That’s 10% of all Catholic women. And you say you are doing a good job.

If the local police chief said ‘no other police force works harder or more diligently to reduce the drug problem’ and you found that 10% of his officers were convicted drug dealers, what would you think?

If the local Republican leader said ‘no party works harder or more diligently to reduce the illegal immigration problem’ and you found that 10% of his party were illegal immigrants themselves, what would you think?

If the local schools superintendent said ‘no organisation works harder or more diligently to reduce illiteracy’ and you found that 10% of his teachers could not read or write, what would you think?

I know what I’d think. I’d think that these people needed to get their own house in order before they started preaching to everyone else.

This means little as there are plenty of persons who self identify as Catholic and know just as much about their faith as your average atheist does.

Also, the Church doesn’t force people to go to mass. Finally, you conveniently ignore the fact that almost 70 percent of all abortions are by minorities, most of which are in inner city areas where crime is high and education and family values are weak and that Planned Parenthood lies to young women by telling them they aren’t killing a child.

BTW, what is your stance regarding the homicide of children in the womb?

 

[BrassAnkles]

You mean like…Hitler?
Baptized as a baby, an altar server as a boy, confirmed as a teen, brought up Catholic…

But maybe he wasn’t–as I’ve seen said many times on this forum–“properly catechized”.
Perhaps he did not receive the gospel “fully”, too?

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Hitler didn’t have a Catholic burial and hated the Catholic Church, like many others do.

 

[jimmy]

You mean like…Hitler?
Baptized as a baby, an altar server as a boy, confirmed as a teen, brought up Catholic…

But maybe he wasn’t–as I’ve seen said many times on this forum–“properly catechized”.
Perhaps he did not receive the gospel “fully”, too?

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And he ended up an atheist who viewed Christians as gullible fools.

Who cares whether someone ‘received the gospel in full’. The reality is what you have in the end.

 

[cena]

Both religious and non religious people do good and evil. The difference is in the fact that principles are found in religion, atheism has none other than science. For atheism, science is the highest good. If it furthers science, then it is good.

Abortion is one example of the lack of principles in atheism. Since you can’t prove that it is a ‘person’ (which is an ambiguous term to start with unless you have a religious philosophy) then you can kill it. The reality is that it is no different than the holocaust or any other genocide. An atheist can’t really say Hitler and the Nazi’s were wrong for killing Jews. Atleast a Christian can admit there are sinners and evil in the world, even if he is one of the sinners. An atheist is forced to admit that there is no difference between life and death. Murderer is just a term we use for people we don’t like.

Peter Singer the ‘great’ ethicist points out the logical fallacy of distinguishing between abortion and murder by advocating for abortion for the first few years after birth. Birth is an arbitrary point. Before and after that point there is no difference. So he advocates for post birth abortion for the first few years of a baby’s life because it hasn’t fully developed its brain.

according to science it is alive but I think that’s the closest they get

 

[jimmy]

Fashion fan-boys?
What’s that?

In fact, we might say that *everyone *is born an Atheist.
Little children don’t have a belief in a God until they are told to, taught to, trained to.

And, in fact, we might say that people of religion don’t believe in God, too.
If you are Catholic, you don’t believe in the Gods Zeus, Neptune or Jupiter…or the other hundreds of Gods that have been worshipped and obeyed throughout the centuries.

So in essence, you are almost like an Atheist–you just dis-believe in one less God.

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I disagree with the post you are responding to, even though I think dawkins and his ilk are clowns. But I need to clear some things up here.

Are we redefining words now? Is religiousity a scale now with atheism on one end and Hinduism on the other? The more gods you have the further towards Hinduism you are; less means you are more atheist?

The concept of gods like the Greek gods is completely different than the concept of the Christian God. If you want to see something comparable in Greek society you would be better off looking at Plato’s concept of the One. The fact that you compare them shows that you really don’t understand the Christian idea.

 

[Bradski]

Finally, you conveniently ignore the fact that almost 70 percent of all abortions are by minorities, most of which are in inner city areas where crime is high and education and family values are weak…

BTW, what is your stance regarding the homicide of children in the womb?

Ah.so it’s not atheists, it’s those ill educated minority’s with weak family values. According to statistics already given, a third of those are Catholic. You need to try harder.

And my position? I would be a very happy man if there were no abortions at all.