A World without Religion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_III
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yeah, naturally. A relationship of trust between two people requires both parties to abide by it. One talks of breaking that trust if one party abuses it. Cheat on your partner and you’ve broken the relationship. I can’t put it plainer than that.
Trust cannot be broken, Bradski, if the partner never has a clue.

Surely you see the astonishment on my face that I have to tell you this.

True, the cheater knows. And he perhaps won’t trust his wife because he knows what he is capable of.

But as far as the wife knows…everything is fine and dandy. She has no trust issues. ***Because doesn’t have a clue that he’s cheating. *** As far as she’s concerned, NOTHING IS WRONG.

I mean, sheesh! You might as well posit that the relationship is harmed because she has a tumor,* which she doesn’t know about. *And she’s going to die in 10 years. But, according to you, the relationship is harmed by something she doesn’t even know about.
 
Here’s a simple question, then: All other things being equal, do you consider the relationship between a man and woman who are faithful to each other exactly the same as the relationship between a couple where one of them is cheating?

They are obviously different. And one isn’t as good as the other. One is broken. The other isn’t.
 
Yea Tony and that is where atheism leads and that is straight into blind pitiless indifference and nihilism.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with an atheist on another forum where I asked him if he believed that Rape was wrong .
His answer ? ""Isn’t it obvious “”😃
I said “it sure is”
He thought about his answer for a minute and quickly changed the subject because he knew what I was getting at .😉
He never brought up the subject of morality again.
He totally believed in objective morality but he couldn’t get himself to admit why and instead he never brought up the subject of morality again .
At least he realised he was inconsistent whereas many people cannot see the wood for the trees. In a purposeless universe morality cannot possibly have a rational foundation.
 
Which secular atheist that has held absolute power did not abuse that power?

Where is an example of a secular atheist utopia that was peaceful and good?

Which group has built more hospitals, orphanages, hospices, charities, and established more colleges and universities; secularists or Abrahamists?

The answers seem obvious. Getting rid of religion is not just about getting rid of the over-hyped bad, but also of the good religion produces as well, which far over-weighs the bad, IMO.
 
Which secular atheist that has held absolute power did not abuse that power?

Where is an example of a secular atheist utopia that was peaceful and good?

Which group has built more hospitals, orphanages, hospices, charities, and established more colleges and universities; secularists or Abrahamists?

The answers seem obvious. Getting rid of religion is not just about getting rid of the over-hyped bad, but also of the good religion produces as well, which far over-weighs the bad, IMO.
Do you think all the religious people who do good now would stop Iif there were no religion?
 
Do you think all the religious people who do good now would stop Iif there were no religion?
Where you appear to be going with this is pointing out that religious people who are sincere would still be doing what they do from the sheer “goodness” of their hearts, so to speak, if there “were no religion.”

The problem, it would seem, is that if God does not exist – that is, if “goodness” is not an inherent quality of existence itself, then it would not be rational to be good. There would be no compelling reason to be good. It would make no difference, ultimately, to anyone, whether every person did good things or bad things since both are non-significant, non-real and ultimately meaningless , merely imagined qualities of existence. They could not function as “reasons for” in any morally obligatory sense.

The difference that God makes is that goodness is known to be an essential quality of existence itself. The significance, importance or value of all that exists, then resides in the very nature of Being itself. Ergo, human beings have moral worth grounded in the nature of Being - of God, Existence Itself.

If matter is all that does exist and things coming into or going out of existence are merely chance events with no ultimate significance, then, in a final sense, “good” is meaningless. It may be, parochially speaking, something cherished by human beings, but not inherent in reality.

God is the only possible grounding for morality that can make sense of how it is to be fully understood. The inherent nature of Being must ground morality or it can be nothing more than a convenient fiction used by humans to self-organize.

The problem, for you, is that you cannot even make the case that it is decidedly “better” for humans to do good out of sheer goodness of will than to do so for mercenary reasons such as to attain paradise. There would be no sense in which one or the other of those would be “better” or “good” since all qualitative determinations would be groundless. You might claim it to be so, but in no real sense is it so.

All the good done by anyone would, ultimately, count for nothing; as would all the evil. It would make no final difference at all.

The question to be asked is which of the two world views makes sense of morality and our awareness that life is meaningful, valuable, good and significant?

Even if we are not certain, it would seem that we have nothing, ultimately, to lose by acting as if it is fully endowed with all of those things, since to take the opposite to be true leaves us open to the full implications of “everything is permissible” because there are no grounds for thinking otherwise.
 
Do you think all the religious people who do good now would stop Iif there were no religion?
One of the reasons religious people do good is to follow the gospel. Remove the gospel from the world, and you might still have people doing good, but not so much good as they would be likely to do with the gospel in the world. I agree very much with Cheek who several posts back notes the good done by religion, which is never mentioned or praised much by those who would not mind at all seeing an end to religion.

As my uncle used to say, “If the world is so bad with religion, how bad would it be without religion?”

Maybe the other question is just as relevant.

"If the world is so good with all the good that religion does, how good would it be without religion?
 
Even if we are not certain, it would seem that we have nothing, ultimately, to lose by acting as if it is fully endowed with all of those things, since to take the opposite to be true leaves us open to the full implications of “everything is permissible” because there are no grounds for thinking otherwise.
Dostoevsky: If there is no God, everything is permissible.
Nietzsche: There is no God.
Hitler: Everything is permissible.

“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Hitler
 
Do you think all the religious people who do good now would stop Iif there were no religion?
I know for a FACT that the answer to that is ‘NO’.

I for one would not be the person I am and would not have done much of the good I have done for those outside of my family and friends were it not for the example of Jesus Christ and the commands He has given to us to love our neighbors and even our enemies as we love those who love us.

I am quite sure that there are many others like me, like John Newton and others who sacrificed their lives to end modern slavery, who wouldn’t have done it were it not for the Gospel.
 
Dostoevsky: If there is no God, everything is permissible.
Nietzsche: There is no God.
Hitler: Everything is permissible.

“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Hitler
Great post; lol, I am posting it and attributing it to a’ dude on the internet’; is that OK?
 
Where you appear to be going with this is pointing out that religious people who are sincere would still be doing what they do from the sheer “goodness” of their hearts, so to speak, if there “were no religion.”

The problem, it would seem, is that if God does not exist – that is, if “goodness” is not an inherent quality of existence itself, then it would not be rational to be good. There would be no compelling reason to be good. It would make no difference, ultimately, to anyone, whether every person did good things or bad things since both are non-significant, non-real and ultimately meaningless , merely imagined qualities of existence. They could not function as “reasons for” in any morally obligatory sense.

The difference that God makes is that goodness is known to be an essential quality of existence itself. The significance, importance or value of all that exists, then resides in the very nature of Being itself. Ergo, human beings have moral worth grounded in the nature of Being - of God, Existence Itself.

If matter is all that does exist and things coming into or going out of existence are merely chance events with no ultimate significance, then, in a final sense, “good” is meaningless. It may be, parochially speaking, something cherished by human beings, but not inherent in reality.

God is the only possible grounding for morality that can make sense of how it is to be fully understood. The inherent nature of Being must ground morality or it can be nothing more than a convenient fiction used by humans to self-organize.

The problem, for you, is that you cannot even make the case that it is decidedly “better” for humans to do good out of sheer goodness of will than to do so for mercenary reasons such as to attain paradise. There would be no sense in which one or the other of those would be “better” or “good” since all qualitative determinations would be groundless. You might claim it to be so, but in no real sense is it so.

All the good done by anyone would, ultimately, count for nothing; as would all the evil. It would make no final difference at all.

The question to be asked is which of the two world views makes sense of morality and our awareness that life is meaningful, valuable, good and significant?

Even if we are not certain, it would seem that we have nothing, ultimately, to lose by acting as if it is fully endowed with all of those things, since to take the opposite to be true leaves us open to the full implications of “everything is permissible” because there are no grounds for thinking otherwise.
👍👍👍👍👍

Great post!
 
Great post; lol, I am posting it and attributing it to a’ dude on the internet’; is that OK?
Be my guest. You could also provide the link for this thread and get more viewers for us. 👍
 
Even if we are not certain, it would seem that we have nothing, ultimately, to lose by acting as if it is fully endowed with all of those things, since to take the opposite to be true leaves us open to the full implications of “everything is permissible” because there are no grounds for thinking otherwise.
So it doesn’t need to be true. You just need to act as if it was, otherwise you might consider everything to be permissible. I note that you didn’t say that everything would be permissible (even putting scare quotes around the term). Maybe you think that it wouldn’t be for you (it wouldn’t be a good thing to admit) but would be for other Christians.
I know for a FACT that the answer to that is ‘NO’.

I for one would not be the person I am and would not have done much of the good I have done for those outside of my family and friends were it not for the example of Jesus Christ and the commands He has given to us to love our neighbors and even our enemies as we love those who love us.
It certainly works for you then, RG. Lucky you’re not Hindu or Muslim.
 
So it doesn’t need to be true. You just need to act as if it was, otherwise you might consider everything to be permissible. I note that you didn’t say that everything would be permissible (even putting scare quotes around the term). Maybe you think that it wouldn’t be for you (it wouldn’t be a good thing to admit) but would be for other Christians.
No actually, what I am saying is that reality does make sense AND goodness is embedded into it, therefore I have every reason to believe that God does exist. If God didn’t exist, goodness, along with meaning, significance and purpose wouldn’t be qualities that humans would have come up with – they would never have arisen.
 
Dostoevsky: If there is no God, everything is permissible.
Nietzsche: There is no God.
Hitler: Everything is permissible.

“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Hitler
Well, smoking wasn’t permissible in Nazi Germany. Hitler himself was behind the policy.
 
I like Peter Kreeft’s take on this:

There is no such thing as “being religious” or “being spiritual”.
There is truth and there is falsehood.
There is good and there is evil.
There is beauty and there is ugliness.
There is life and there is death.
But there is not “spirituality” and “materiality”,” or “the sacred” and “the secular”.
Those are artificial abstractions, man-made, mind-made distinctions.
The others are not, They are the big ones.

All life is liturgy. All words are creeds. All times are Sabbaths. All places are churches.
But we all have attention deficit disorder; we are forgetful.
And unless we see God in special places and times, we will forget to see Him in any place and time.
Nothing registers in our consciousness as a purely abstract universal truth unless it has a connection to a concrete particular.

That is why God had to pick out particular prophets, form a particular “chosen people,” and incarnate Himself in one particular man: one man, not all men and not “mankind”.
And why he found one particular, visible, concrete Church.
 
Dostoevsky: If there is no God, everything is permissible.
Nietzsche: There is no God.
Hitler: Everything is permissible.

“The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future – certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the Church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch and annihilating it in Germany.” Hitler
Quote is from a fraudulent book (“Hitler Speaks”)- books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwC&pg=PR14#v=onepage&q&f=false and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Rauschning#Authenticity_of_Hitler_Speaks

Here are some real quotes (acquired via Wikiquote):

Mein Kampf:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (p. 65)

And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. (p. 174)

Speeches:

We are a people of different religions, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls… We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

And of course there’s this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat#Terms_of_the_concordat
 
What? Stuff on the InterWeb that isn’t true? Gracious…

You should check out the book itself. It is pages and pages and pages of verbatim conversations with Hitler. Good grief, can anyone even begin to recount, verbatim, what conversations you had last week, let alone a few years after they were purported to have taken place? You’ll be telling me next that quoted passages in the bible are verbatim…
 
Quote is from a fraudulent book (“Hitler Speaks”)- books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwC&pg=PR14#v=onepage&q&f=false and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Rauschning#Authenticity_of_Hitler_Speaks]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Rauschning#Authenticity_of_Hitler_Speaks])

To be sure, there are plenty of historical revisionists who want to purify Hitler’s reputation, such as Mark Weber who is a Holocaust denier and right wing white supremacist who also denied the authenticity of Hitler Speaks.

Swiss Historian Exposes Anti-Hitler Rauschning Memoir as Fraudulent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Weber
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top