AA

[estesbob]

Est,

If someone told you that you had a disease and you believed it and it was no problem. If someone told you had a disease and someone said you should check into it then would you not check into it.

The societies can be trusted to the extent you want to trust them. No one I know takes these socieites as gospel. They are not the medical magesterium.

Look for yourself at what is out there. If you can come to a conclusion that there are many ways of looking at the same problem then you will find as

St. Gregory, St. Jude, Baldwin Research, Stanton Peele and others found that perhaps the notion of disease should be looked at as a model…It is a model.

I have 4 years in a Catholic Seminary, a minor in theology and philosophy from a Catholic University and 28 years of working with Alcoholics in AA. I attend mass 6 times a week and am very involved in my Parish. i would say i am well grounded in my faith and in AA I don’t need to “look out there” and quite frankly I don’t need to waste much time arguing about AA with people who have are not alcoholics, and have no experience with the program.

I posted my links only because you criticized those who believed alcoholism is a disease-an opinion you are entitled to but an opinion that is not shared by the medical profession.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have 4 years in a Catholic Seminary, a minor in theology and philosophy from a Catholic University and 28 years of working with Alcoholics in AA. I attend mass 6 times a week and am very involved in my Parish. i would say i am well grounded in my faith and in AA I don’t need to “look out there” and quite frankly I don’t need to waste much time arguing about AA with people who have are not alcoholics, and have no experience with the program.

I posted my links only because you criticized those who believed alcoholism is a disease-an opinion you are entitled to but an opinion that is not shared by the medical profession.

Estes,

We disagree. We do not argue. I am amazed at the tenacity that those that cling to the notion of disease have deaf ears to not having a disease.

 

[Yerusalyim]

The Twelve Steps helped me become a better Catholic, and a better person. I attended AA for three years. Without AA I would probably still be a drunk…and possibly dead. In the interest of full disclosure I drink now, occasionally. I honestly do not remember the last time I had a beer…probably five months ago. I had a maturity problem. That maturity problem presented as alcoholism. I started to attend meetings, without them…and without the twelve steps I would not have been able to quit. I attended meetings until I could not longer stand the whining I continually heard from some of the members. When I no longer looked forward to meetings, when it became an emotional drain…I stopped. I didn’t drink for another seven years…so 10 years in all with no alcohol. That was eight years ago. I will occassionally go out with my wife or friends and drink two or three beers, which is all I want. I have been drunk on a handful of occasions…but that drinking pattern I had from the time I was 14 until the time I was 30 has not returned.

The twelve steps helped me to become a better person, and certainly helped me live my Catholic faith well. That not everyone sees the twelve steps as a way to be a better Christian is fine with me…each person works their own program…and like the big book says…they are SUGGESTIONS not dogmas.

I do NOT recommend my course for anyone else. That I have addressed my maturity problem is great…others may not be so lucky. If you’re sober, stay that way…this is my program, not yours.

 

[Mgray82]

Coptic, I’m not a physician. I’m not fluent in medical terminology or the study of disease. I know a little about medication as I do work in the pharmaceutical industry. But nonetheless, alcoholism is something. Be it a disease, disorder, habit, etc. It’s baffled the medical field since the dawn of creation (hence, alcoholism has always been around. It’s in the bible!). But, my point is…it is something that you or no other doctor on earth can fully explain.

You never did give a good answer to why it is that an alcoholic, after 5 years of sobriety (as an example…we could say 15 years as well) who drinks can drink a substantial amount of alcohol. Followed by their lives returning back to the exact miserable state it was in when he put the drink down 5 (or 15) years later. Then it progresses as if the alcoholic had never stopped in the first place. It picks up right where it left off. You can’t explain that! How does the phenomenon of craving return from a relapse?

We don’t see this with say opiate or cocaine addicts. They relapse after periods of sobriety, they die (usually). The common denominator is the same. Same symptoms.

Addiction (slavery as you put it) is a disease. You think it’s not…fine. You still can’t explain what it is. Whatever it is.

I’d also like to interject, if I may as to what Andrew1980 said to you. The Church sees no problem with it. As there are many priests who are alcoholic and sober through AA (Joseph C. Martin was an inspiration in my early recovery. God rest his soul). You say it’s a religion, the Church does not and in return condones their priests to attend if they want! How do you argue this??

 

[CopticChristian]

The Twelve Steps helped me become a better Catholic, and a better person. I attended AA for three years. Without AA I would probably still be a drunk…and possibly dead. In the interest of full disclosure I drink now, occasionally. I honestly do not remember the last time I had a beer…probably five months ago. I had a maturity problem. That maturity problem presented as alcoholism. I started to attend meetings, without them…and without the twelve steps I would not have been able to quit. I attended meetings until I could not longer stand the whining I continually heard from some of the members. When I no longer looked forward to meetings, when it became an emotional drain…I stopped. I didn’t drink for another seven years…so 10 years in all with no alcohol. That was eight years ago. I will occassionally go out with my wife or friends and drink two or three beers, which is all I want. I have been drunk on a handful of occasions…but that drinking pattern I had from the time I was 14 until the time I was 30 has not returned.

The twelve steps helped me to become a better person, and certainly helped me live my Catholic faith well. That not everyone sees the twelve steps as a way to be a better Christian is fine with me…each person works their own program…and like the big book says…they are SUGGESTIONS not dogmas.

I do NOT recommend my course for anyone else. That I have addressed my maturity problem is great…others may not be so lucky. If you’re sober, stay that way…this is my program, not yours.

Yeru,

You wanted help, you got it and you would have probably faired well with any program…you became a better Catholic and that is fact.

 

[zenith15]

Please provide the nurse’s statement saying that Bill begged for three fingers of whiskey…

Steph

See “My Name Is Bill” by Susan Cheever. It’s available on Amazon.com. She interviewed his attending nurses who were there in his final days.

 

[zenith15]

Just curious-are you still sober?

10 years.

I was never able to remain clean/sober in AA or NA for long, despite doing each and every thing I was told to do, reading everything there was to read, working the steps, etc and fully expecting that it would work, as I was told it would. When I got out, I found many many people for whom the program had not worked. Yes, some had not given it a good try–but many had–they had tried over and over again, desperately, while their lives fell apart around them, and were told after each failure to “keep coming back, it works if you work it, you’ll die if you don’t!”. They were told this by fellow 12 step members, by probation officers, by judges, by employee assistance program directors, by CPS, by rehabs, by well meaning laypersons, by clergy, etc. So, like me, they kept going back–and back–and back. And many relapsed over and over and over again. They lost jobs, health, custody, even their lives. But no one–EVER–suggested they try a different method.

As soon as I tried a different method, I was able to stop drinking and using Rx painkillers (the drug I was addicted to) that first day, and have not used since.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, I’m not a physician. I’m not fluent in medical terminology or the study of disease. I know a little about medication as I do work in the pharmaceutical industry. **But nonetheless, alcoholism is something. **Be it a disease, disorder, habit, etc. It’s baffled the medical field since the dawn of creation (hence, alcoholism has always been around. It’s in the bible!). **But, my point is…it is something that you or no other doctor on earth can fully explain. **You never did give a good answer to why it is that an alcoholic, after 5 years of sobriety (as an example…we could say 15 years as well) who drinks can drink a substantial amount of alcohol. Followed by their lives returning back to the exact miserable state it was in when he put the drink down 5 (or 15) years later. Then it progresses as if the alcoholic had never stopped in the first place. It picks up right where it left off. You can’t explain that! How does the phenomenon of craving return from a relapse?

We don’t see this with say opiate or cocaine addicts. They relapse after periods of sobriety, they die (usually). The common denominator is the same. Same symptoms.

Addiction (slavery as you put it) is a disease. You think it’s not…fine. You still can’t explain what it is. Whatever it is.

I’d also like to interject, if I may as to what Andrew1980 said to you. The Church sees no problem with it. As there are many priests who are alcoholic and sober through AA (Joseph C. Martin was an inspiration in my early recovery. God rest his soul). You say it’s a religion, the Church does not and in return condones their priests to attend if they want! How do you argue this??

Mgray,

What is clear is that those that accept the disease model are like disciples unwilling to yield that there are other ways…only your way or the highway.

When you counter with questions or aphorisms or testimonial, all you are doing is mouthing the AA/religion/medical/disease model and you just don’t know that and I do. I don’t accept this and the rub is you find it difficult to accept that there may be an alternate view and I do know that there are alternate views and am versed in them as well.

Your wasting your time, he just doesn’t get it, how do you know, attacking me as the messenger…is what the AA/disciples spout when confronted with notions that dispute what you have been taught. I would expect…I did not know that. Explain that to me. I always thought. Oh…I see…there is no level of give and take and logical sifting of the information, just resistance. This is part and parcel of this model of thinking.

I have no problem with the attacks. I know the message. I do not stand alone. It is only a theory, a model, not fact.

I explained that it is behavior. The drinking to get more effects is the function of the liver and I explained that. There have been studies with people like yourself who say that they can’t even use mouthwash. You believe that and because you believe that, so it is. Alcohol has been given to subjects like yourself that believe that unkowingly and nothing happens so this belief is a belief that has a self fulfilling prophecy.

The Church has no statement of Mormonism or Scientology either does it? Go look. So what. I have seen too many " I am a recovering alcoholic and recovering Catholic" that lost their faith in the halls of AA. In my opinion for those that became better Catholics there are as many that lost their faith. You hear of success not failure and there are failures.

It is a model, a theory…look here…

mendocino.edu/docs/aod/AddictionTheories_Wk_7.pdf

suite101.com/article/theories-about-substance-abuse-and-the-models-of-addiction-a238030

slideshare.net/DrSnipes/models-of-addiction#btnPrevious

family-drug-intervention.net/addiction_models.html

To this, those that respond that they don’t have the time to look then Ok, I do and to recommend anything to anybody I have to know what the alternatives are.

To anyone who needs help, reading these threads, know that AA is not the only way, it is a way and in fact there are better ways, since AA ranks 37/48.

Know that if you choose AA, you are choosing to be brainwashed into believing that you are diseased never to be cured and that ultimately the entire program is geared towards confessing your sins and then teaching some other soul this program. That is what it is. If someone is looking for help they should know that there are other ways to get help and

NOT BE DISEASED forever and a day and never to be cured and forever and a day bound to the stinkin thinkin of the AA paradgm…unless someone wants to go that route…then amen…let them go that route knowing full well what they are getting into…or go to

Shick Shadel
St. Gregory
St. Jude
Life Process
SMART

and you will not have a disease and you get help and you don’t have to go for life.

To be or not to be that is the question…

To be diseased or not be diseased is the question everyone looking for help should ask.

Do I want a disease?

Do I not want a disease?

Get help and decide which you want since the disease model is just a model and a theory.

Concerning priests and the Church I am working on something that would be similar to Celebrate Recovery…

Catechesis of the Vices…sounds good to me, what do you think?

 

[benjohnson]

I thinck Coptic’s message is wise, in that if there are methods that are effective to combat one’s own destructive habits, one should chose the method that is in line with Church teaching, or is at least neutral. A method that is contrary to Church teaching should be avoided if possible.

I know form my own life, I’ve had better sucuess relying on God than relying on my peers in helping me cutail bad habits or sin.

 

[CopticChristian]

10 years.

I was never able to remain clean/sober in AA or NA for long, despite doing each and every thing I was told to do, reading everything there was to read, working the steps, etc and fully expecting that it would work, as I was told it would. When I got out, I found many many people for whom the program had not worked. Yes, some had not given it a good try–but many had–they had tried over and over again, desperately, while their lives fell apart around them, and were told after each failure to “keep coming back, it works if you work it, you’ll die if you don’t!”. They were told this by fellow 12 step members, by probation officers, by judges, by employee assistance program directors, by CPS, by rehabs, by well meaning laypersons, by clergy, etc. So, like me, they kept going back–and back–and back. And many relapsed over and over and over again. They lost jobs, health, custody, even their lives. But no one–EVER–suggested they try a different method.

As soon as I tried a different method, I was able to stop drinking and using Rx painkillers (the drug I was addicted to) that first day, and have not used since.

Z,

It is good to hear that you found help. How you found it only you know. The motivation that you found was the key. It would help to know why you chose to do what you did to resolve your issues. This is the first step towards resolution, ie having a reason to change.

You had a problem, you found help, you do not have nor did you ever have a disease.

 

[CopticChristian]

I thinck Coptic’s message is wise, in that if there are methods that are effective to combat one’s own destructive habits, one should chose the method that is in line with Church teaching, or is at least neutral. A method that is contrary to Church teaching should be avoided if possible.

I know form my own life, I’ve had better sucuess relying on God than relying on my peers in helping me cutail bad habits or sin.

Ben,

I have followed your posts on the 500 years. This caused me to conclude that when dialoguing with Protestants I have to change my paradigm. There are not Protestants.

Anglo/Lutheran dialogue is different than dialogue with most seperated from the OHCAC and I am less inclined to challenge the Anglo/Lutheran than others.

I found your posts in the 500 thread honest and sincere.

Relying on God is what the halls of AA want however in doing so you automatically accept without knowing as you go that you will be forever labeled ADDICT or ALCOHOLIC as if the Scarlet Letter were revived today and that the disease you accept will never be cured. Many going for help do not know this and they should know this. Why the secret?

Going to AA means you will have to accept you are diseased and you will have to accept that you will never be cured and you will forever and a day have to accept that this will be part of your life…if you choose to go to AA…go with full knowledge of what you are getting into…or do something else.

The reason for the book noted below is that the halls of AA are filled with secrets you know not until you get there and after a few years you learn…

 

[benjohnson]

Ben,

I found your posts in the 500 thread honest and sincere.

That’s kind! Thank you! I find your willingness to proclaim the truth refreshing and instructional.

…

If I may,and if I understand correctly, Catholics are blessed to have two exceedingly powerfull things to consider while contiplating sin.

1. Guardian angles - each person has one that accompanies us in our life. Our sins are known to God, but also to this angel. This angle has holy inteligence and prays for us. Perhaps it would be wise to consider the distress we put on our angel when we sin. Perhaps we should do better, not only for ouselves, but to resping to the prayers of our angel.
2. The Final Judgement - in the end, all our sins will be known to one another. Your family and friends will know your secret hidden sins. Your children and spouse will witness it. Perhaps consider if the sin is worth distressing those that love you.

Perhaps if one is drawn to the idea of AA peer-based help, they should consider that as Catholic Chistians, they already have the best help available: The Blessed Virgin Mary, the angels, Saints in Heaven, God, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all witnessing and want the best for you.

For myself, the hope of these holy witnesses will draw me up away from sin much better than my peers that, perhaps, are wallowing in sin.

I appologise if I got any part of the theology incorrect, This is how Lutherans understand guardian angles and the final judgement… and I would appreciate correction!

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s kind! Thank you! I find your willingness to proclaim the truth refreshing and instructional.

…

If I may,and if I understand correctly, Catholics are blessed to have two exceedingly powerfull things to consider while contiplating sin.

1. Guardian angles - each person has one that accompanies us in our life. Our sins are known to God, but also to this angel. This angle has holy inteligence and prays for us. Perhaps it would be wise to consider the distress we put on our angel when we sin. Perhaps we should do better, not only for ouselves, but to resping to the prayers of our angel.
2. The Final Judgement - in the end, all our sins will be known to one another. Your family and friends will know your secret hidden sins. Your children and spouse will witness it. Perhaps consider if the sin is worth distressing those that love you.

Perhaps if one is drawn to the idea of AA peer-based help, they should consider that as Catholic Chistians, they already have the best help available: The Blessed Virgin Mary, the angels, Saints in Heaven, God, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all witnessing and want the best for you.

For myself, the hope of these holy witnesses will draw me up away from sin much better than my peers that, perhaps, are wallowing in sin.
I appologise if I got any part of the theology incorrect, This is how Lutherans understand guardian angles and the final judgement… and I would appreciate correction!

Ben,

As you believe, so you think, as you think so you act…too many wandering this earth have little to concern themselves about in their times of trial. If all had the sense that you express, fewer would do the things they do to others let alone to themselves…

We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…true, so true…

 

[silenced]

See “My Name Is Bill” by Susan Cheever. It’s available on Amazon.com. She interviewed his attending nurses who were there in his final days.

Ah. Hearsay. Impressive. Not.

 

[silenced]

Cat,

Your sentiment is helpful in the sense that if it were a disease it would be true. The fact is that it is not and never was a disease, it was just declared to be a disease, and the treatment is not treatment. As a physician it is impossible to justify calling it a disease in spite of what is said.

The disease model. Note Model, is not universally accepted and there are better alternatives. You say "seems’ to work and in reality data shows that it ranks 37/48 as successful in approaches for a difficult problem, in other words there are 36 better ways. Data shows that the rate of success is no better than 5% or doing nothing. That is reality.

What are those better ways? Where’s the list?

I believe the word “disease” came into the recovery lexicon just as a reference point because recovery had to develop its own language so that those IN recovery could communicate. Lots of this language is tired and inaccurate and almost meaningless. I wouldn’t get too worked up over the disease model, except when discussing the proliferation of unscrupulous treatment centers popping up on every corner raking in big bucks from the insurance companies.

Now, if the treatment is not a treatment, then why am I sober?

 

[silenced]

" . . . and you will not have a disease and you get help and you don’t have to go for life."

There is nothing in AA’s Steps or Traditions or Concepts that requires anyone to “go [to meetings] for life.” This little slip of propaganda almost got by me, buried in a bunch of blowhard pontifications. It simply does not stand. And the deliberate misrepresentation of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous underlines the sinister way in which AA morphs from “program” to “cult”. I find this truly, disturbingly reckless, to the point of dishonesty.

I’ll be watching for more of these distortions of the truth.

 

[CopticChristian]

What are those better ways? Where’s the list?

I believe the word “disease” came into the recovery lexicon just as a reference point because recovery had to develop its own language so that those IN recovery could communicate. Lots of this language is tired and inaccurate and almost meaningless. I wouldn’t get too worked up over the disease model, except when discussing the proliferation of unscrupulous treatment centers popping up on every corner raking in big bucks from the insurance companies.

Now, if the treatment is not a treatment, then why am I sober?

Silenced,

Here is Reid Hesters CV

behaviortherapy.com/rkhvita.pdf

Here you will find links to EVIDENCE base ALTERNATIVES

behaviortherapy.com/

links to evidence base practice sites & alternative self-help groups in the addictions

Alltyr Dr. Mark Willenbring’s clinic in St. Paul MN that provides clinical services and consultation to providers.
Alternative Support Groups
Andrew Tartarsky’s Harm Reduction web site (New York, NY)
CRA and CRAFT
Guided Self-Change Clinic at Nova Southeastern University
Harm Reduction Therapy Center (San Francisco CA)
ModerateDrinkingOptions.com Arnold Washton’s programs in NYC and Princeton, NJ
Moderation Management
Responsible Recovery (a harm reduction center in the San Francisco Bay area)
SMART Recovery

and here you will find the results of the work by Hester…WHAT WORKS

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

and there you will find on the list 37/48 12 step facilitation and 38/48 Alcoholics Anonymous…

You are sober because you stopped drinking. If you read the Truth About Addiction, there you will find many that are sober because of what is called Spontaneous Recovery, people like Bing Crosby to name a few. There are others…

THE DISEASE MODEL

THE AMERICAN DISEASE MODEL and the Diseasing of America…

G. Alan Marlatt (1985) also addressed the moral issue, observing that more recent models of alcoholism may actually facilitate recovery. He wrote, “By attempting to remove the moral stigma associated with drinking problems, the diagnosis of alcoholism as a disease en¬courages many individuals to seek medical treatment for their disorder” (p. 6). The underlying theme of the American Disease Model of alcoholism can be traced back to the early nineteenth century writings of the American Physician, Benjamin Rush. However, it was the work of Jellinek (1952, I960) and his associates at the Yale Center for Alcohol Studies that popularized the modern version.
Fingarette (1988), however, points out that, although it is the single most popularly accepted view of alcohol-. few people, even those working in the field, can recite the disease theory of alcoholism. His definition of the disease model of alcoholism (pp. 2-3) contains the following components:
• It is a specific disease to which only some
people are vulnerable.
• The disease will develop if someone who is
vulnerable takes up drinking.
• The disease is progressive: it starts with social
drinking and progresses to heavy drinking,
drinking alone or in secret, ultimately leads
to the development of tolerance with physical
withdrawal symptoms upon cessation of
the drinking.
• The drinker begins to experience blackouts and
other symptoms of heavy use.
• The alcoholic finally succumbs to uncontrolled use.
• The alcoholic “hits bottom” and suffers physical or
emotional collapse and premature death.
• The only other alternative is life-long abstention.

and here you will find links to discussion of how the notion of disease was introduced

soberforever.net/current_research.cfm

In treatment and 12 step groups the individual is told that they can only live “one day at a time.” Additionally, they are told that they should never be fooled into believing they can be cured, and if they don’t attend meetings they will inevitably fall prey to their “disease doing push-ups in the parking lot.”

I posted this site before and you seem not to have seen it…

Glad you don’t drink anymore…glad you’re OK…

 

[CopticChristian]

" . . . and you will not have a disease and you get help and you don’t have to go for life."

There is nothing in AA’s Steps or Traditions or Concepts that requires anyone to “go [to meetings] for life.” This little slip of propaganda almost got by me, buried in a bunch of blowhard pontifications. It simply does not stand. And the deliberate misrepresentation of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous underlines the sinister way in which AA morphs from “program” to “cult”. I find this truly, disturbingly reckless, to the point of dishonesty.

I’ll be watching for more of these distortions of the truth.

Silenced,

There is lots about AA that is not talked about…in the books, in the literature, but AA requires you to believe that you are diseased for life, every meeting you go to you say…

“Hi, I am Silenced and I am an Alcoholic”…forever and a day as long as and whenever you go to a meeting…“Hi Silenced”

Tell me what you believe is dishonest. The above is true. Once a drunk, always a drunk. Once diseased always diseased.

A colleague of mind recently finsihing addiction counseling training told me as we discussed the AA/12 step/disease model…she said…“I know it is not a disease, but that is what we tell people, and it is just a way to trick people into Christianity”…and in my opinion it is and has Protestant roots. There may be something to be said for a dose of Protestant thought to get people on track and help them become better Catholics, but it is not a disease and this is not treatment.

While you believe it morphs into a cult, what I see when discussing and you and others lurking will see is the same mentality as the Once Saved Always Saved group. There is no discussing anything with the OSAS because they found Jesus…and that is OK…but the resistance to reality and the truth is the same. It is difficult to make headway in dialogue with either crowd.

The program/book/what has been swallowed becomes a point of contention…rather than explain this or provide me information…it is "Oh, yeah, well then tell me why…I am this or tell me what you know about my disease or if you don’t have it how can you…etc…it is just the paradigm speaking. It is usually a difficult irrational conversation. Many that lurk will reflect and recgonize this pattern in those they know that are part of this paradigm or those that are early on in the paradigm will recognize this perspective.

You don’t like the exposition of what it is, Ok. I understand that.

 

[Mgray82]

The Church has no statement of Mormonism or Scientology either does it? Go look. So what. I have seen too many " I am a recovering alcoholic and recovering Catholic" that lost their faith in the halls of AA. In my opinion for those that became better Catholics there are as many that lost their faith. You hear of success not failure and there are failures.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

1. the Catechism (which you’ve read entirely, I haven’t yet) has no opinion or statement on every silly “religion” that pops up. If it did, it would be a much thicker book.
2. Comparing AA to Mormonism is a strawman fallacy yet again. Priests don’t go to the Mormon temple to get sober like they do with AA.
3. I went to AA a Protestant and am now entering the Catholic Church. Should I start addressing myself at meetings as a recovering Protestant? I’m a living testament that this statement is silly. People are going to leave or bash the Catholic Church for whatever reason they choose. AA has no opinion on that, you know that.

 

[Andrew1980]

I haven’t read up on many other forms of recovery, but I would be VERY leery about any recovery program that didn’t have at its final solution the need to turn your lives and wills over to God.

People in recovery quickly realize that drinking, lust or whatever their particular vice is; is the least of their real issues. As a recovering member of SA, I now know that lust was only a surface issue, as hideous of a sin as it is. Had I been able to address lust without working towards a complete submittal to Christ, my recovery would have been meaningless. Who cares if you stop drinking or stop lusting, but remain a self-centered, ego driven idiot. What SA helped me see is that my will was nuts and that to truly live as I ought to live, I needed to completely abandon myself to God and his providence for my life. Had I been able to take a magic pill that would have helped me to stop lusting, I would have never addressed all my underlying other sins, pride being the worst. Thus, my addiction has been a great blessing as it has helped me see the need and provided a tremendous desire to completely turn my life over to Christ. I have seen the program work similarly in several other lives.

What good is recovery from these surface vices (drinking, lusting, eating) if we do not address the need to turn our wills and lives over to God? In my opinion, the best part of SA is that it helped me to see these defects in my life more clearly and start the long process of becoming a better person. As I become a better person, my lust naturally took care of itself.

Their is a lot of scientific data behind the disease model for addiction as well. Through our habitual sins we actually re-wire our brains to seek comfort in our addictions. For me, when I would get anxious, stressed, tired, hungry, angry, etc, my mind would seek out lust in some capacity to escape the situation. I still know today that I am not like a normal “luster” if their is such a thing. I am assuming that most people who make the sinful decision to lust after someone, won’t end up spending hours/days/weeks trying not to lust again. The pre-occupation and ritualization phase of addiction can be brutal for addicts. I am assuming that is what sets us apart from other members of society. For instance, back in my acting out days, there were several times that I would literally drive to a strip club, not go in, fight with myself about how wrong it was, drive back home, then back to the club, back home, back to the club, occasionally spending 4-5 hours in a vehical trying not to go into the club. Eventually, within a week, I would likely fall to the process of pre-occupation and ritualization. I’ve even dumpster dived to get my old porn out of a dumpster that I had pitched my porn in a few days earlier. i dug through other’s peoples trash, old food, banana peels, looking for porn. I don’t see how this is normal behavior. I know it isn’t. It doesn’t bother me in the least to know that I am addict, that my mind doesn’t respond to lust like most peoples. All I know is that to stay sober for me, means no allowing myself to lust at all. And it means working diligently towards a complete submittal of my life and will to Christ. Any “solution” that doesn’t lead towards that end conclusion is borderline worthless. Afterall, what good is any suffering if it doesn’t lead us to Christ?