AA

[CopticChristian]

I would guess almost all people joining SA know that they are sick sinful human beings that want to change. If they don’t realize they are spiritual sick, as we all are, they will hopefully realize it quickly by working the 12 Steps.

There are plenty of websites out there dedicated to the 12 Steps. The program is not trying to hide anything. I’m not sure what you think AA or SA is trying to “hide” from incoming members. One of the first things you are likely to be told when joining the fellowship is that we are sick. Its true about you its true about me. Its not a big deal, its just the truth.

Andrew,

By your own admission, you provided your brain information that caused you to have habits. You are not sick. You practiced bad habits. If you believe you can practice bad habits would you accept that by good habit and the grace of God you can improve?

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

By your own admission, you provided your brain information that caused you to have habits. You are not sick. You practiced bad habits. If you believe you can practice bad habits would you accept that by good habit and the grace of God you can improve?

Of course we can improve, no one says you can’t. The sickness that I have is a result of my previous behavoir. Just like if I was to say over eat for 20 years, become obese and then finally change my behavoirs, the effects of 20 years of overeating will linger. I won’t magically drop 200 lbs the first year. Its a slow process. In the same way, by conditioning my brain over the course of 20 years through the use of pornography, it isn’t going to be healed overnight. I am still sick. I am in the PROCESS of recovery. Recovery takes time. It doesn’t just heal itself in a week (as it seems like you belief it does).

I would consider my faulty brain wiring a sickness, you don’t. That’s okay its just semantics. Its kind of like not calling morbid obesity a sickness. If I am 560 lbs, and I start eating healthy. I wiill remain morbidly obese for some time after changing my behaviors. It is not any different for addiction. You may not consider morbid obesity as being a sickness just as you don’t for addiction, but I would consider myself to be sick until I reached a healthy weight.

 

[Mgray82]

Mrgay,:banghead:

Do you play Chess? My favorite place to play is black. Since black is supposed to lose and I rarely do that means I play well. My favorite defense is the Sicilian.

I never learned in the 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and subsequent training to be trapped or to trap.

You are coming to me asking me to define something that you believe is a trap. Your thinking is unsane, in the vain of General Semantics, not consistent with reality.

Tell me what you believe this trap to be. Let’s discuss what it is you want to discuss. I am not trapping anyone, just providing information and discussing.

I rarely consult the medical dictionary except for spelling. What is it you believe that the medical dictionary is useful for?

Do you believe that sending someone to a Methodist Church would be the equivalent of AA?

Except, this game of chess isn’t really working because you’re not playing.

I’ve asked you the same question twice…I take it you’re ducking the question. That’s usually what someone does when they’re stuck as you are.

 

[Mgray82]

Coptic, since you believe the soul can become sick…and since you think the addict is really a slave to their sin, as you’ve arrived to this conclusion based on the Latin terminology of the word…how do you reconcile alcoholism as not a disease. Specifically of the soul. Since the word “disease” means “sick” in Latin?

(I answered the earlier question for you)

 

[Andrew1980]

Except, this game of chess isn’t really working because you’re not playing.

I’ve asked you the same question twice…I take it you’re ducking the question. That’s usually what someone does when they’re stuck as you are.

He also refuses to answer whether or not Christ is the answer/solution for addiction… He seems to believe that what his psychology has to offer is on par with finding Christ as the solution. IMO and that of Saint Augustine, whom he asked me to read up on, we will never find rest until we rest in Christ. Us addicts tried to find peace in vice and peace in pride and selfishness… it got us no where. Peace only can be found in Christ, yet some how he believes that people don’t want Christ shoved down their throats. IMO, it is better to be straight forward and hones as St Augustine was. If someone wants peace and happiness there is no other way. Christ is the way and no matter how “successful” his programs are at helping someone prevent problematic behaviors they are worthless if they don’t help someone find what they truly are looking for and that is Christ.

 

[sunga3001]

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[Jerusha]

People need alternatives until they are ready for God and you can’t do the work of God as the Protestant world believes in?] forcing God down their throat. That is why people fail. Protestant thought is " I will save you at all cost even if you resist"?

If you look at the classical representations of the progress of alcoholism, you will see that hunger for God, and desire for God’s healing is a part of that progression. I firmly believe that the person who has not reached that point will not succeed, which is the reason for the failure rate. Unfortunately, the alcoholic or addict is impatient, and wants it to happen IMMEDIATELY. Therefore, they tend to OD on a false, fevered religiosity. AA says that it takes time, and working on defects of character is essential. The Mormon approach is to encourage and exploit that fevered religiosity, without addressing the more subtle sins of thought and false assumptions. The Catholic approach is to encourage frequent confession, with a non-judgmental approach. This coincides perfectly with the AA approach.

Yes, I suppose I am still AA, just don’t go to meetings. Some of the social consequences of being active AA and maintaining a self-label that is no longer appropriate became problematic. I am now just a normal non-drinker.

Coptic is just as stubborn as Tom Nosser. And just as much dedicated to the belief that everyone MUST see things his way.

 

[Cat]

If AA is a “religion,” then alcohol is a bigger and BADDER religion that causes alcoholics to slowly destroy themselves and die a miserable, agonizing death, cripple their families, twist their children’s thought processes, alienate their friends and acquaintances, lose their jobs and depend on others for basic survival needs (thus depriving others of money and resources), and contribute to crimes such as rape, theft, and murder (drunken driving).

All of this drags our society down.

It doesn’t the heck matter whether if it’s called a “disease” or something else. This whole conversation is just a lot of esoteric mind games. If thinking of it as a “disease” somehow helps the alcoholic to recover, then let the alcoholic think of it as a “disease” and let him/her be!

Coptic Christian, a doctor, insists that alcoholism is NOT a disease. His approach is also legitimate, and will no doubt work for many alcoholics, and that’s good, too. If refusing to believe that alcoholism is a disease and working through another method to become sober helps, then let the alcoholic do this and leave him/her be!

We’re talking about people dying and taking others with them here. As long as no one is committing a sin in their approach to stop dying from alcohol overuse, then who cares? Do what works already!

Over the last three years, I have lost 80 pounds. When I think back on what motivated me to finally lose weight and try to eat healthier, a lot of it has to do with a comment that a man made on that summer replacement show, “Extreme Makeover.” One of the obese men said, “I’m committing suicide and I’m doing it with food.”

Something about that comment clicked in my mind and did it for me. It doesn’t matter whether his comment is medically or psychologically “accurate” or not. (I happen to think it is accurate.) It DID THE TRICK and got me going!

I’m sure millions of other people heard that comment and it did absolutely nothing for them. I’m not proposing that the AMA and the American Psychological Society start referring to “obesity” as a “Suicide Method.” But for ME, that thinking process worked and to a certain extent, it still works. I’ve gained some of the weight back, but I still eat healthier and do more than I did 80 pounds ago.

Just let people get healed and don’t worry about how it happens! Keep trying SOMETHING until something works!

 

[Jerusha]

Yep, the law of pragmatics works here. If it works, and the individual sincerely believes it works, then work it. If the individual does not believe, then it won’t work.

 

[silenced]

Andrew,

There are mental disorders that have the ability of being corrected.

Sadness often times thought of as depression
Habit percieved of as addiction
Prove your faulty wiring theory…

You actually think “sadness” and depression are the same thing, and maybe that an ice cream cone and a puppy might make that nasty ol’ sadness turn into sunshine and rainbows?

Crack the books. You have a lot to learn.

 

[CopticChristian]

Why do you refuse to answer this question? You seem to believe that rooting out problematic behavior is “success”.

IMO, any recovery, short of finding lasting peace in Christ is a faux recovery. It still leaves the person looking for more and searching for Christ. We can’t find true recovery unless we have found Christ. This is what the 12 Steps aims at. Any good recovery program MUST do the same, if they do not, then the person may stop their problematic behavoir, but they will have made little progress in finding the true peace and happiness that ONLY comes from Christ.

Andrew,

What it true recovery? What does it look like? How does someone know it when they get it?

 

[CopticChristian]

Of course we can improve, no one says you can’t. The sickness that I have is a result of my previous behavoir. Just like if I was to say over eat for 20 years, become obese and then finally change my behavoirs, the effects of 20 years of overeating will linger. I won’t magically drop 200 lbs the first year. Its a slow process. In the same way, by conditioning my brain over the course of 20 years through the use of pornography, it isn’t going to be healed overnight. I am still sick. I am in the PROCESS of recovery. Recovery takes time. It doesn’t just heal itself in a week (as it seems like you belief it does).

I would consider my faulty brain wiring a sickness, you don’t. That’s okay its just semantics. Its kind of like not calling morbid obesity a sickness. If I am 560 lbs, and I start eating healthy. I wiill remain morbidly obese for some time after changing my behaviors. It is not any different for addiction. You may not consider morbid obesity as being a sickness just as you don’t for addiction, but I would consider myself to be sick until I reached a healthy weight.

Andrew,

The work of Virginia Satir, Fritz Perl and Milton Erickson would be contrary to your belief as it concerns changing thinking taking years. It also contradicts the word.

 

[CopticChristian]

Except, this game of chess isn’t really working because you’re not playing.

I’ve asked you the same question twice…I take it you’re ducking the question. That’s usually what someone does when they’re stuck as you are.

Mgray,

Dictionaries are compendiums of word usage. I provided you a definition from “not a dictionary” but a search for the etymology of the word and knowledge that the word addict was formulated from Latin describing a slave, and that slaveship was temprorary, not permanent. That word has come to be used contrary to its initial definition “slave forever”.

So your mind is confused. I used the etymology of a word and you want to dabble in the dictionary.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

Dictionaries are compendiums of word usage. I provided you a definition from “not a dictionary” but a search for the etymology of the word and knowledge that the word addict was formulated from Latin describing a slave, and that slaveship was temprorary, not permanent. That word has come to be used contrary to its initial definition “slave forever”.

So your mind is confused. I used the etymology of a word and you want to dabble in the dictionary.

Coptic, can the soul have a disease?

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, since you believe the soul can become sick…and since you think the addict is really a slave to their sin, as you’ve arrived to this conclusion based on the Latin terminology of the word…how do you reconcile alcoholism as not a disease. Specifically of the soul. Since the word “disease” means “sick” in Latin?

(I answered the earlier question for you)

Mgray,

I have never seen a soul, touched a soul, heard a soul, tasted a soul, but I believe in a soul. The best I can offer you is that Aquinas attributes to the soul Intellect and Will. That seems to make sense to me. Aquinas also attributes to the soul “apetites”…and those apetites can be disordered.

An addict is not a slave to their sin, they sin and that behavior causes an addictive or behavior that is habit. That habit distorts their thinking and beliefs so that they continually and habitually do not seek the greater good. Now that we are transitioning into theology here if you act in a way that does not cause you to seek the good for which you were created habitually you seek other than God. You can reorder your actions with the gifts you have been given by your own effort and resolve coflicts to the greater good and knoweldge of God making use of gifts you have been given.

Alcoholics sin in their excess, ie Gluttony of drink and exercise their will towards a lesser good and by doing so they sin. Do you want to think of sin as holes in the soul, Ok…that works…grace fills those holes and then you are no longer sick and no longer diseased.

 

[CopticChristian]

He also refuses to answer whether or not Christ is the answer/solution for addiction… He seems to believe that what his psychology has to offer is on par with finding Christ as the solution. IMO and that of Saint Augustine, whom he asked me to read up on, we will never find rest until we rest in Christ. Us addicts tried to find peace in vice and peace in pride and selfishness… it got us no where. Peace only can be found in Christ, yet some how he believes that people don’t want Christ shoved down their throats. IMO, it is better to be straight forward and hones as St Augustine was. If someone wants peace and happiness there is no other way. Christ is the way and no matter how “successful” his programs are at helping someone prevent problematic behaviors they are worthless if they don’t help someone find what they truly are looking for and that is Christ.

Andrew,

We agree that Christ is the answer. You therefore fulfill my and others that understand that through the religion of AA you figured that out and you don’t need AA to figure that out.

What about the people that somehow can’t find Christ, do they remain forever hopelessly addicted?

I asked you to listen to Augustine, not read, it appears that you do not take direction well.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you look at the classical representations of the progress of alcoholism, you will see that hunger for God, and desire for God’s healing is a part of that progression. I firmly believe that the person who has not reached that point will not succeed, which is the reason for the failure rate. Unfortunately, the alcoholic or addict is impatient, and wants it to happen IMMEDIATELY. Therefore, they tend to OD on a false, fevered religiosity. AA says that it takes time, and working on defects of character is essential. The Mormon approach is to encourage and exploit that fevered religiosity, without addressing the more subtle sins of thought and false assumptions. The Catholic approach is to encourage frequent confession, with a non-judgmental approach. This coincides perfectly with the AA approach.

Yes, I suppose I am still AA, just don’t go to meetings. Some of the social consequences of being active AA and maintaining a self-label that is no longer appropriate became problematic. I am now just a normal non-drinker.

Coptic is just as stubborn as Tom Nosser. And just as much dedicated to the belief that everyone MUST see things his way.

Jerusha,

I expect progress, not perfection and you have achieved that. You understand that there is a failure rate and that is progress.

Reasons for failure are subject to discussion that will go endlessly as if asking why someone drinks. It is the same asking why they don’t stop.

You humor me.

AA
SMART
CBT
Brief Intervention
and others

are modes of addressing a problem…Do I want you to consider alternatives, of course, do I have any particular mode in mind, of course, am I prejudiced against AA, by no means because to AA is given the failure rate of no better than spontaneous recovery and ranks 37/48 when compared to other methods. You choose not to accept that, then I can’t take you to the sky, to the abyss, because the information is in your mind, in your heart, that what is true is true, you need only confess it with your lips.

 

[CopticChristian]

If AA is a “religion,” then alcohol is a bigger and BADDER religion that causes alcoholics to slowly destroy themselves and die a miserable, agonizing death, cripple their families, twist their children’s thought processes, alienate their friends and acquaintances, lose their jobs and depend on others for basic survival needs (thus depriving others of money and resources), and contribute to crimes such as rape, theft, and murder (drunken driving).

All of this drags our society down.

It doesn’t the heck matter whether if it’s called a “disease” or something else. This whole conversation is just a lot of esoteric mind games. If thinking of it as a “disease” somehow helps the alcoholic to recover, then let the alcoholic think of it as a “disease” and let him/her be!

Coptic Christian, a doctor, insists that alcoholism is NOT a disease. His approach is also legitimate, and will no doubt work for many alcoholics, and that’s good, too. If refusing to believe that alcoholism is a disease and working through another method to become sober helps, then let the alcoholic do this and leave him/her be!

We’re talking about people dying and taking others with them here. As long as no one is committing a sin in their approach to stop dying from alcohol overuse, then who cares? Do what works already!

Over the last three years, I have lost 80 pounds. When I think back on what motivated me to finally lose weight and try to eat healthier, a lot of it has to do with a comment that a man made on that summer replacement show, “Extreme Makeover.” One of the obese men said, “I’m committing suicide and I’m doing it with food.”

Something about that comment clicked in my mind and did it for me. It doesn’t matter whether his comment is medically or psychologically “accurate” or not. (I happen to think it is accurate.) It DID THE TRICK and got me going!

I’m sure millions of other people heard that comment and it did absolutely nothing for them. I’m not proposing that the AMA and the American Psychological Society start referring to “obesity” as a “Suicide Method.” But for ME, that thinking process worked and to a certain extent, it still works. I’ve gained some of the weight back, but I still eat healthier and do more than I did 80 pounds ago.

Just let people get healed and don’t worry about how it happens! Keep trying SOMETHING until something works!

Cat,

compare and contrast what you said and thought with the following, from The Truth About Addiction…amen…

How Uncle Ozzie Quit Smoking

How do so many people quit the toughest of all drugs? Let’s examine the remarkable story of my uncle Ozzie. Ozzie was born in Russia in 1915 but came to the United States as a small child. As a teenager he developed an addiction to smoking. Outwardly calm, Ozzie did not have obvious reasons for smoking. Nonetheless, he continued to smoke into the early 1960s. But Ozzie quit smoking in 1963, the year before the surgeon general’s 1964 report making clear that cigarettes cause cancer.

I didn’t actually notice my uncle had quit until years after the fact, when I saw him at a family gathering when I was home from school, after I became interested in the question of addiction. I asked him, “Ozzie, didn’t you used to smoke?” Ozzie then told me his story.

He began smoking at the age of eighteen and continued smoking for thirty years. Ozzie described his smoking as “a horrible habit”—he smoked four packs a day of unfiltered Pall Malls. He kept a cigarette burning constantly at his workbench (Ozzie was a radio and TV repairman). He described how his fingers were stained a permanent yellow. But, he said, until the day he quit, he had never even considered giving it up. On that day the price of a pack of cigarettes rose from thirty to thirty-five cents. While eating lunch with a group of fellow employees, Ozzie went to the cigarette machine to purchase a pack. A woman co-worker said, “Look at Ozzie—if they raised the price of smokes to a dollar, he’d pay them. He’s a sucker for the tobacco companies!”

Ozzie replied, “You’re right—I’m going to quit.”

The woman, also a smoker, said, “Can I have that pack of cigarettes you just bought?” Ozzie answered, “What, and waste thirty-five cents?” He smoked that pack and never smoked again. A few years ago, Ozzie died. He was over ninety years old.

Why did my uncle Ozzie quit? To understand that, you’d have to understand what kind of person
he was. Ozzie was a union activist and shop steward. Adamantly left-wing, he was a man who lived by his beliefs. It was Ozzie’s job to stand up for any worker sanctioned by the company. As a result, he believed, he was punished for his activism by being sent out to the worst parts of the city on television repair calls.

Why did Uncle Ozzie quit smoking that one day, after thirty years of constant, intense smoking? He had never previously considered quitting, but less than twenty-five words thrown out by a blue-collar colleague somehow caused him to drop the addiction. We will return to this question in the next module, but for now it is enough to recognize that he did it.

Without the aid of a support group or medicated patch, Ozzie overcame his smoking addiction. And fifty million other American ex-smokers have done the same thing.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yep, the law of pragmatics works here. If it works, and the individual sincerely believes it works, then work it. If the individual does not believe, then it won’t work.

Jerusha,

This would be identified as the Placebo effect. If you think AA is going to work and you believe that it will work then it works.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

I have never seen a soul, touched a soul, heard a soul, tasted a soul, but I believe in a soul. The best I can offer you is that Aquinas attributes to the soul Intellect and Will. That seems to make sense to me. Aquinas also attributes to the soul “apetites”…and those apetites can be disordered.

An addict is not a slave to their sin, they sin and that behavior causes an addictive or behavior that is habit. That habit distorts their thinking and beliefs so that they continually and habitually do not seek the greater good. Now that we are transitioning into theology here if you act in a way that does not cause you to seek the good for which you were created habitually you seek other than God. You can reorder your actions with the gifts you have been given by your own effort and resolve coflicts to the greater good and knoweldge of God making use of gifts you have been given.

Alcoholics sin in their excess, ie Gluttony of drink and exercise their will towards a lesser good and by doing so they sin. Do you want to think of sin as holes in the soul, Ok…that works…grace fills those holes and then you are no longer sick and no longer diseased.

…and Coptic, you and everyone else here has a soul! And last time I checked, there’s no soul doctors out there other than Jesus.

What makes your soul sick or diseased, may not be what makes my soul sick or diseased and vice versa. We’re all prone to our own vices, are we not? And some are certainly worse and more dangerous than others.

Thank you for finally admitting that alcoholism is a disease. I can now rest at ease…