AA

[CopticChristian]

You actually think “sadness” and depression are the same thing, and maybe that an ice cream cone and a puppy might make that nasty ol’ sadness turn into sunshine and rainbows?

Crack the books. You have a lot to learn.

Silenced,

Many people think they are depressed and treated for depression that are not. People are overdiagnosed with depression all the time. Physicians admit that they overdiagnose depression when all it is is sadness.

I always have a lot to learn. A gentlemen a few weeks ago stopped taking all his meds, lifted himself out of sadness, and was happy as a lark when he discovered that all he was dealing with was temporary sadness, not depression, as he thought he had…even though a visit to a psychiatrist yielded no understanding, no insight, just a prescription, because he wasn’t depressed…Do you want to tell him different?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1949440/

Rates of diagnosis of depression have risen steeply in recent years. Gordon Parker believes this is because current criteria are medicalising sadness, but Ian Hickie argues that many people are still missing out on lifesaving treatment

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1962886/

Sadness is normal because life can be difficult.1 2 Sadness in bereavement, for example, is appropriate and healthy—I hope my children will be sad after I’ve gone. However, sadness is not depression: when it is combined with cognitive, emotional, somative, and behavioural features it becomes the syndrome of depression, with its multifactorial aetiology, so common in primary care. But diagnosis does not mean that treatment or medicalisation is needed

Which books should I hit…?

 

[CopticChristian]

…and Coptic, you and everyone else here has a soul! And last time I checked, there’s no soul doctors out there other than Jesus.

What makes your soul sick or diseased, may not be what makes my soul sick or diseased and vice versa. We’re all prone to our own vices, are we not? And some are certainly worse and more dangerous than others.

Thank you for finally admitting that alcoholism is a disease. I can now rest at ease…

Mgray,

Alcoholism is not now nor ever been a disease. I return your undeserved gratitude. Your reading skills may be lacking. I said Gluttony is a sin. Alcoholism is a sin. Sin is not a medical disease, diagnosed or treated by the medical community.

12 step disciples really are a strange bunch.

I am diseased. Can’t you accept that I am diseased. I am diseased gall nabit.

no you are not

Thank you for telling me I have a disease…I rest my case.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

Alcoholism is not now nor ever been a disease. I return your undeserved gratitude. Your reading skills may be lacking. I said Gluttony is a sin. Alcoholism is a sin. Sin is not a medical disease, diagnosed or treated by the medical community.

We’ll see what Jesus says when we get to Heaven

 

[CopticChristian]

We’ll see what Jesus says when we get to Heaven

Mgray,

So,

anyone that has any common sense lurking and reading about AA/12 step religion and wondering if they should go to AA will read your posts and ask themselves…

disease?

Jesus?

Heaven?

what do I do to get help with this bad habit I have? Do I need or want religion or should I get some help and then find religion, considering that the religion thing ranks 37/48…based on

what someone says
what Coptic says
what someone told me

no

Research by Dr. Reid Hester

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

So,

anyone that has any common sense lurking and reading about AA/12 step religion and wondering if they should go to AA will read your posts and ask themselves…

disease?

Jesus?

Heaven?

what do I do to get help with this bad habit I have? Do I need or want religion or should I get some help and then find religion, considering that the religion thing ranks 37/48…based on

what someone says
what Coptic says
what someone told me

no

Research by Dr. Reid Hester

Yeah, well…that’s because he’s in charge. You’re not. You’re no expert in anything.

He healed me (with the help of AA). You or no other doctor with their idea or scripts of Antabuse healed me. Except the doctor who did tell me to go to AA.

I don’t care what you think doc. There’s a whole different argument out there for alcoholism being a disease supported by doctors rather you like it or not.

You’re 1 opinion from one side.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

What it true recovery? What does it look like? How does someone know it when they get it?

True recovery is finding and knowing Christ… See St Augustine. You know you are there when all that matters to you is striving to find and to carry out God’s will in all things. When you have cast off self centeredness and live for others in love then you know you are there.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

The work of Virginia Satir, Fritz Perl and Milton Erickson would be contrary to your belief as it concerns changing thinking taking years. It also contradicts the word.

No one said changing thinking takes years. That can take a day; re-routing our neurons takes years. It doesn’t happen over night.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

We agree that Christ is the answer. You therefore fulfill my and others that understand that through the religion of AA you figured that out and you don’t need AA to figure that out.

What about the people that somehow can’t find Christ, do they remain forever hopelessly addicted?

I asked you to listen to Augustine, not read, it appears that you do not take direction well.

I didn’t say you needed AA to figure that out. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth. In no instance did I say or have I said that AA is the only way to get sober. I think you are either intentionally misreading posts or are delusional. Although based on several of your comments I am leaning towards delusional borderline needing to be committed.

People who can’t find Christ will never find true peace. They can break an addiction and move on without the problematic behavior, but doing so does NOT provide them what they are looking for. Every human being, atheist, agnostic, 90 yo, 15 yo is searching for Christ. Any solution without Christ at its center is not a real solution. What value is it to gain sobriety from an addiction, but to lose your soul? It is of no value.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

We agree that Christ is the answer. You therefore fulfill my and others that understand that through the religion of AA you figured that out and you don’t need AA to figure that out.

What about the people that somehow can’t find Christ, do they remain forever hopelessly addicted?

I asked you to listen to Augustine, not read, it appears that you do not take direction well.

Show me where I can find a tape to listen to Augustine. Last I had heard most recording devices in the 4th and early 5th century weren’t the best. If you have discovered a rare recording I will definitely take a listen.

 

[CopticChristian]

I didn’t say you needed AA to figure that out. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth. In no instance did I say or have I said that AA is the only way to get sober. I think you are either intentionally misreading posts or are delusional. Although based on several of your comments I am leaning towards delusional borderline needing to be committed.

People who can’t find Christ will never find true peace. They can break an addiction and move on without the problematic behavior, but doing so does NOT provide them what they are looking for. Every human being, atheist, agnostic, 90 yo, 15 yo is searching for Christ. Any solution without Christ at its center is not a real solution. What value is it to gain sobriety from an addiction, but to lose your soul? It is of no value.

Andrew,

I agree with this. Here is the rub. The problem is addiction and you are pointing out the need the world has for Christ. Addiction is habit/sin…sin only if you have a notion of sin and if not then it is habit. Not understanding sin does not mean you cannot change your behavior.

 

[CopticChristian]

No one said changing thinking takes years. That can take a day; re-routing our neurons takes years. It doesn’t happen over night.

Andrew,

It takes about 45 days to change a habit or form one. You may want to spend some time watching the BBC Brain Story available on YouTube.

 

[silenced]

True recovery is finding and knowing Christ… See St Augustine. You know you are there when all that matters to you is striving to find and to carry out God’s will in all things. When you have cast off self centeredness and live for others in love then you know you are there.

An atheist cannot recover from alcohol dependence unless he converts to Christianity? That’s a rather small way of looking at hope.

 

[CopticChristian]

True recovery is finding and knowing Christ… See St Augustine. You know you are there when all that matters to you is striving to find and to carry out God’s will in all things. When you have cast off self centeredness and live for others in love then you know you are there.

Andrew,

Then as Jesus Christ the bearer of Water of life says…you should be thinking

Sin/Salvation

not

Addiction/Recovery…

I agree with sin and salvation…

 

[Andrew1980]

Mgray,

Alcoholism is not now nor ever been a disease. I return your undeserved gratitude. Your reading skills may be lacking. I said Gluttony is a sin. Alcoholism is a sin. Sin is not a medical disease, diagnosed or treated by the medical community.

12 step disciples really are a strange bunch.

I am diseased. Can’t you accept that I am diseased. I am diseased gall nabit.

no you are not

Thank you for telling me I have a disease…I rest my case.

I realize that you are likely not far into your profession. In fact, your about me section references only a masters which is very limited in the field that you proclaim great expertise. You seem to believe that no mental disorders should be classified as a disease, when in fact their are many.

I have demonstrated that the nature of an addicts brain is different from the general societies. This has been documented numerous times by numerous studies. I call this difference a sickness, you seem to think it is not. It looks like you are far in the minority.

msnbc.msn.com/id/44147493/ns/health-addictions/t/addiction-now-defined-brain-disorder-not-behavior-issue/

I truly believe that you have personal pride issues that need tending too. I know you are likely to blow this off, but very few people post 10-20 times a day everyday on internet forums unless there are underlying behavoir issues. I would strongly recommend you get help or atleast diagnosed. I am not saying this to be rude or facetious, but because the manner in which post and the way you address other members of the forums and multiple members of the forums leads me to believe you are actually struggling with some disorder yourself. I am not a psychologist, but it isn’t often I discuss topics of disagreement with someone on an internet forum and worry about their mental health. In this case, I am getting an uneasy feeling that you may be reaching out for help.

God Bless!

 

[CopticChristian]

Yeah, well…that’s because he’s in charge. You’re not. You’re no expert in anything.

He healed me (with the help of AA). You or no other doctor with their idea or scripts of Antabuse healed me. Except the doctor who did tell me to go to AA.

I don’t care what you think doc. There’s a whole different argument out there for alcoholism being a disease supported by doctors rather you like it or not.

You’re 1 opinion from one side.

Mgray,:hypno:

I am a messenger of many opinions…see here…the lurkers will look, you may want to see what they are viewing before responding…

soberforever.net/current_research.cfm

soberforever.net/currentresearchBRI1990-1.cfm

soberforever.net/researchdisease2003.cfm

The “recovery” community’s adoption of the disease concept began with an early AA member named Marty Mann. Her efforts, combined with a somewhat dubious scientist named E.M. Jellinek, began national acceptance of the disease concept. It was Jellinek’s self-proclaimed “scientific” study that opened the door for the medical community’s support. E.M. Jellinek’s study was funded by the efforts of Marty Mann and R. Brinkley Smithers. And, like so many other circumstances involving Jellinek and Mann, the study was bogus, if not outright fraudulent. The surveys Jellinek based his conclusions on were from a handpicked group of alcoholics. There were 158 questionnaires handed out and 60 of them were suspiciously not included. His conclusion was based on less than 100 handpicked alcoholics chosen by Marty Mann. Mann, of course, had a personal agenda to remove the stigma about the homeless and dirty alcoholic or “bowery drunk” in order to gain financial support from the wealthy. By removing the stigma, the problem becomes one of the general population, which would then include the wealthy. The first step was Jellinek publishing his findings in his book “The Disease Concept of Alcoholism,” which was based on selected subjects who fit the criteria supporting Mann’s preconceived conclusions. Later, E.M. Jellinek was asked by Yale University to refute his own findings. He complied. E.M. Jellinek’s The Disease Concept of Alcoholism did not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

soberforever.net/currenttreatdoesnt.cfm

Treatment Doesn’t Work

Drug and Alcohol Addiction Treatment Research

Like Alcoholics Anonymous, treatment professionals claim success in the face of contradicting evidence. AA groupers boast “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.” The truth is people rarely succeed when following the path of those in AA. As stated previously, 95% of the existing treatment centers in the United States adhere to the 12 Step philosophies. Not surprising, the success rate of treatment is no different from the success rate of AA: 3%.

soberforever.net/currentresearchOASASstudy.cfm

A report by Linda C. Sobell, PhD, John A Cunningham, PhD, and Mark B. Sobell, PhD called Recovery from Alcohol Problems With and Without Treatment: Prevalence in Two Population Surveys also confirms the previous statement. This is a published report presented in the American Journal of Public Health, July 1996, Vol. 86, No. 7. This report demonstrates that more alcoholics recover without treatment than do those who receive treatment, at a rate of more than 3:1. To say that “Treatment Doesn’t Work” according to this study, and many others would grossly understating he impact of treatment.

soberforever.net/alcoholism-disease.cfm

In another article authored by Dr. Phil Stringer entitled Disease, Victimization, and Personal Responsibility he raises the question, “How many people who never decide (emphasis added) to drink would ‘catch’ the ‘disease’ of alcoholism?” The obvious answer is none. In the traditional meaning of the word “disease,” a chosen behavior (i.e. drinking alcohol or taking drugs) does not define a disease in that one can just as reasonably choose not to drink or use drugs. The disease theory simply provides the person with a drug or alcohol problem an easy out from taking responsibility for themselves, their behavior, and the problems they cause others.

There are hundreds of researchers who have looked carefully at the alcoholism disease theory. Most have rejected the notion that alcoholism is a disease. The studies that have touted alcoholism as a disease are researchers who derive a living, in one way or another, from the treatment industry. These are hardly sources that can be trusted.

Love your enemies, hate the message, not the messenger…

checkmate…

 

[Andrew1980]

An atheist cannot recover from alcohol dependence unless he converts to Christianity? That’s a rather small way of looking at hope.

I didn’t say that… he can recover, but he will not find what he is looking for. Without a doubt he can move past his addiction, however, each of is seeking to know God. If we don’t know God we will never find true peace and happiness in this life time.

 

[CopticChristian]

I realize that you are likely not far into your profession. In fact, your about me section references only a masters which is very limited in the field that you proclaim great expertise. You seem to believe that no mental disorders should be classified as a disease, when in fact their are many.

I have demonstrated that the nature of an addicts brain is different from the general societies. This has been documented numerous times by numerous studies. I call this difference a sickness, you seem to think it is not. It looks like you are far in the minority.

msnbc.msn.com/id/44147493/ns/health-addictions/t/addiction-now-defined-brain-disorder-not-behavior-issue/

I truly believe that you have personal pride issues that need tending too. I know you are likely to blow this off, but very few people post 10-20 times a day everyday on internet forums unless there are underlying behavoir issues. I would strongly recommend you get help or atleast diagnosed. I am not saying this to be rude or facetious, but because the manner in which post and the way you address other members of the forums and multiple members of the forums leads me to believe you are actually struggling with some disorder yourself. I am not a psychologist, but it isn’t often I discuss topics of disagreement with someone on an internet forum and worry about their mental health. In this case, I am getting an uneasy feeling that you may be reaching out for help.

God Bless!

Andrew,

I suffer daily. Breathing is a chore, lifting my arms is a chore. Putting on clothing is a chore. I have pain in my shoulder. You worry about me. Thank you. I will tell my children and grandchildren of your concern. Friends and colleagues will be told as well.

I have free time now and again and I could

Go to strip bars
Drink until I cannot drive
Watch Porn till my toes go numb
Go looking for the latest and greatest drug
Eat chocolate until I cannot stop

Instead I exercise my body and mind when I have free time, expressing my ideas, and sharing things I believe to be true.

Do you believe that some of the other stuff would be more productive?

Notice that the article you post is from …

The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) just released this new definition of addiction after a four-year process involving more than 80 experts.

This society is/was spawned by the 12 step industry. What do you expect them to say? They are advertising for future business. I don’t believe this society has anything to offer truth in reality.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

Then as Jesus Christ the bearer of Water of life says…you should be thinking

Sin/Salvation

not

Addiction/Recovery…

I agree with sin and salvation…

Addiction is simply when a sin has become habitual to the point that the person becomes much more susceptable to commiting the sin and then repeating the sin frequently. Recovery is the process of coping with the effects of habitual sin and seeing the root causes of our sin in order to be able to live a life free of sin in the grace of God.

The bible states that those who sin become a SLAVE to sin. This is a great description of addiction. We become slaves to our sins.

 

[CopticChristian]

10148456]I didn’t say that… he can recover, but he will not find what he is looking for. Without a doubt he can move past his addiction, however, each of is seeking to know God. **If we don’t know God we will never find true peace and happiness in this life time./**QUOTE]

Andrew,

I am with you and now we are talking religion and not science, sin and salvation. I encourage you to listen, not read Augustine.

Have you started reading the Catechism or thought of purchasing an Audio Catechism?

 

[CopticChristian]

Addiction is simply when a sin has become habitual to the point that the person becomes much more susceptable to commiting the sin and then repeating the sin frequently. Recovery is the process of coping with the effects of habitual sin and seeing the root causes of our sin in order to be able to live a life free of sin in the grace of God.

The bible states that those who sin become a SLAVE to sin. This is a great description of addiction. We become slaves to our sins.

Andrew,

Now that you understand this do you believe that there is a possiblity of better habits that might be worth pursuing…?