AA

[TheRealJuliane]

Coptic, she is just lacking a sense of humor.

Now, about the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ???

I am not lacking a sense of humor, thank you very much. And I am very tired of the disease of last-word-ism.

Goodbye, and God bless you.

 

[Mgray82]

MGray:
But you are talking about a departure from the Traditions. See?

In what way? And which Tradition?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

RJ,

I did not start this thread. I have experience, knowledge, and have researched this topic ad nauseum prior to this thread being started. My intent was to discover how to make it work. As a Phyisician I tackle everything so that I understand it and can teach it. I had good intentions when I took this study underway. The study unfortunately did not end up as I planned as I was unable to swallow things that are not true.

I am content to take the dialogue to Sin and Salvation…I have asked and been ignored.

What is the role of Theologic virtues in human virtues and the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit?

I asked this of Andrew, Mgray…and I get no response…their minds are focused on their program while proclaiming to be better Catholics…all I want is for everyone to be a better Catholic…

can we go there, in the Spirit of Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life…

Morally neutral Addiction/Recovery

vs

Sin/Salvation…

That response was not directed at you, you will see from my quote. I have nothing more to say to you, and I feel sorry for you.

 

[Jerusha]

READ that section of the 12X12, please.

 

[estesbob]

Intersting thread. Some doubt Coptic is a physician , some doubt I am a drunk. I guess I can live with that -

 

[Mgray82]

READ that section of the 12X12, please.

I have read the 12 and 12…

I’m not understanding what you are trying to point me to…

I was referring to evangilization in AA.

I may be confused.

 

[Mgray82]

Intersting thread. Some doubt Coptic is a physician , some doubt I am a drunk. I guess I can live with that -

I really enjoyed the link you provided to our separated brethren’s take on AA. Seeing that, I have to give Coptic some credit…

Why’d you take it down. As with this thread, it provided a good laugh.

 

[estesbob]

I really enjoyed the link you provided to our separated brethren’s take on AA. Seeing that, I have to give Coptic some credit…

Why’d you take it down. As with this thread, it provided a good laugh.

The Landover Baptist Church link? I thought perhaps what it said was redundant. -

 

[Jerusha]

I have read the 12 and 12…

I’m not understanding what you are trying to point me to…

I was referring to evangilization in AA.

I may be confused.

Sometimes, especially with some of the people with personality disorders you may see in AA, the evangelization you may see can take a malicious and subtle twist. May be that splinter groups tailored to religious and cultural differences are more appropriate. Take a look at the other subject in which I participate.

 

[Mgray82]

The Landover Baptist Church link? I thought perhaps what it said was redundant. -

It may have been appropriate. There are those here working with the same frame of mind even though their theology is different.

 

[Mgray82]

Sometimes, especially with some of the people with personality disorders you may see in AA, the evangelization you may see can take a malicious and subtle twist. May be that splinter groups tailored to religious and cultural differences are more appropriate. Take a look at the other subject in which I participate.

I see what you’re saying…

There’s not much if any religious dialogue in any meetings I personally attend. Not to say that’s there’s none anywhere.

I just say in the fellowship of another, you may get an opportunity to witness. I’d never bring it up as a topic at the group.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

As a physician I do not seek information for statistics on what works from Google. Try the NIH website or look into reading published literature. If you read this thread I provided studies. I provided the work of Reid Hester, Phd. He points out FACT 37/48 for AA concerning methods that work…in other words there are 36 more effective methods.

I provided you the St. Jude website.

soberforever.net/current_research.cfm

and here

soberforever.net/drhanson.cfm

I posted this before…

The LA times and Scientific American are not where you find data. Show me what you found and I will tell you what it really says rather than what you think it says…

Facts are Facts

Here is a study on Physician attitudes on Faith based Treatement…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22476161

Psychiatr Serv. 2012 Jun;63(6):597-604. doi: 10.1176/appi.ps.201100315.
Physicians’ beliefs about faith-based treatments for alcoholism.
Lawrence RE, Rasinski KA, Yoon JD, Koenig HG, Meador KG, Curlin FA.
SourceDepartment of Psychiatry, Columbia University Medical Center, 1051 Riverside Dr., Box 103, New York, NY 10032, USA. rlawrence@uchicago.edu

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: The study examined physicians’ beliefs about faith-based alcohol treatments vis-à-vis Alcoholics Anonymous, pharmacologic treatment, and residential treatment.

Who says this is a fact?

I say it is a fact and if you look at sites that publish fact like St. Jude they say it is a fact. Accept it.

Coptic, here are the articles from Scientific American and LA Times that you offered to interpret for me: scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-alcoholics-anonymous-work and articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/03/news/la-heb-sheen-aa-20110302

These are not intended to be authoritative or scholarly articles, of course, but they’re from mainstream news sources unlike some of the muckraker-type sites on the web.

Here are some articles on Catholicism and AA:
This one is “The Catholic Church and AA” from Fr. Robert Burns, C.S.P–silkworth.net/religion_clergy/01035.html

“Ask an Apologist” at CAF–“Does the Catholic Church approve of AA?”: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=275019

More information on Fr. Serpa’s answer in the above thread, “The Catholic Contribution to the 12-step Movement” from Catholic Culture: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=703

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, you suffer from “lastworditis”.

Is that located in your medical books?

Mgray,

I suffer daily. I groan, however, my groans are turned into prayer because I do not know how to pray as I ought…however

I believe
I live
I strive
and I pray…

You may be on to something. I believe that you should consider changing this to “last wordism”…then you can start a group…

Wordism Anonymous and it to the growing list of nonsense

AA - Alcoholics Anonymous
ACA - Adult Children of Alcoholics
Al-Anon/Alateen, for friends and family members of alcoholics
CA - Cocaine Anonymous
CLA - Clutterers Anonymous
CMA - Crystal Meth Anonymous
Co-Anon, for friends and family of addicts
CoDA - Co-Dependents Anonymous, for people working to end patterns of dysfunctional relationships and develop functional and healthy relationships
COSA - formerly Codependents of Sex Addicts
COSLAA - CoSex and Love Addicts Anonymous
DA - Debtors Anonymous
EA - Emotions Anonymous, for recovery from mental and emotional illness
EHA - Emotional Health Anonymous, for recovery from mental and emotional illness
FA - Families Anonymous, for relatives and friends of addicts
FA - Food Addicts in Recovery Anonymous
FAA - Food Addicts Anonymous
GA - Gamblers Anonymous
Gam-Anon/Gam-A-Teen, for friends and family members of problem gamblers
HA - Heroin Anonymous
MA - Marijuana Anonymous
NA - Narcotics Anonymous
NAIL - Neurotics Anonymous, for recovery from mental and emotional illness
Nar-Anon, for friends and family members of addicts
NicA - Nicotine Anonymous
OA - Overeaters Anonymous
OLGA - Online Gamers Anonymous
PA - Pills Anonymous, for recovery from prescription pill addiction.
SA - Sexaholics Anonymous
SA - Smokers Anonymous
SAA - Sex Addicts Anonymous
SCA - Sexual Compulsives Anonymous
SIA - Survivors of Incest Anonymous
SLAA - Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous
UA - Underearners Anonymous
WA - Workaholics Anonymous **
Wordism A**

 

[CopticChristian]

Lastwordism is a disease.

One of the ways to combat this is the deflation of ego…(hint, hint)

Mgray,

You have learned nothing…

The first step, as you know, is the most important step…and every 12 step person knows that if you cannot accept this step then the others are impossible. You also have to tell people that the steps get harder as you go…

We admitted that we were powerless over words/Dictionary and that our lives have become unmanageable…

Now please stay in the framework of the 12 step/religion/disease model…for squirrels sake…

 

[CopticChristian]

I am not lacking a sense of humor, thank you very much. And I am very tired of the disease of last-word-ism.

Goodbye, and God bless you.

RJ,

Thank you. So all can see how easy it is for minds to accept disease that is not a disease…just the mere mention of a disease and people believe it exists. No proof necessary, no science, just say it is and people believe it. Now people can understand how the false thinking of Acoholism as disease got started.

 

[CopticChristian]

That response was not directed at you, you will see from my quote. I have nothing more to say to you, and I feel sorry for you.

RJ,

Thank you,

In consideration that I am trying to keep the focus within the context of

Morally Neutral Addiction/Recovery

and

Sin/Salvation…

I know you can pray for me however I don’t know that your sorrow will suffice for my sorrow. My sorrow is neccessary in the Sacrament of Reconciliation…but I appreciate your thinking of me…

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

1454 The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.53

Perhaps you may be thinking that I am poor in spirit or I need mercy…

•

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
• Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. (Verse 4)
• Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
• Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
• Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
• Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
• Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
• Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

 

[CopticChristian]

Intersting thread. Some doubt Coptic is a physician , some doubt I am a drunk. I guess I can live with that -

Estes,

I doubt myself all the time. If anyone doubts that AA is failing them or has anything to offer, Dr. Nancy Handmaker just sent this to me…

Dr. Coptic,

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.

In patient stays in non-12 step programs…combined with

Cognitive-behavioral therapy in conjunction with naltrexone is leading in clinical trials. If there are anxiety disorder that complicates the addiction, appropriate medication and care would be needed for long-term success.A good assessment is important.

If you need more information, I’ll contact you.

Warm regards,

Nancy Handmaker PhD

Sent from my iPhone

Considering what works, Dr. Handmaker is an associate of Dr. Reid Hester that wrote the book and classified AA/12 steps as having no better than 37/48 success rate and published data says that AA has no better than a 5% success rate.

I have no doubt if you are a drunk if you say so…if so, get some help as based on what works…

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, here are the articles from Scientific American and LA Times that you offered to interpret for me: scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-alcoholics-anonymous-work and articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/03/news/la-heb-sheen-aa-20110302

These are not intended to be authoritative or scholarly articles, of course, but they’re from mainstream news sources unlike some of the muckraker-type sites on the web.

Here are some articles on Catholicism and AA:
This one is “The Catholic Church and AA” from Fr. Robert Burns, C.S.P–silkworth.net/religion_clergy/01035.html

“Ask an Apologist” at CAF–“Does the Catholic Church approve of AA?”: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=275019

More information on Fr. Serpa’s answer in the above thread, “The Catholic Contribution to the 12-step Movement” from Catholic Culture: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=703

Abide,

The articles you quoted are nebulous and should be understood as

those that go to AA voluntarily with the desire to get help…get help…

Because the study lacked a group of people who received no treatment, however, it does not reveal whether any of the methods are superior to leaving people to try to stop drinking on their own.

The Moss article you quoted can be read in it’s entirety here…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2220012/

The best way to read an aritcle is to read the introduction, then the conclusion, spend lots of time on the conclusion looking for words like “may”…“could”…“we believe”…etc that tells you it is not fact and not universally accepted, then go back and read the entire article.

The L.A. Times references a study however there is no way to find and read it so it is just a bunch of number written by a reporter.

The Vatican has issued Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life that says…

Morally Neutral Language of Addiction/Recovery

has replaced

Sin/Salvation

Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest
Zwingli was a Catholic Priest
Erasmus was a Catholic Priest

and they all stand at the foundation and speak for Protestant thought…

I have no need to listen to any Catholic priest on any issue when the Vatican says I should dialogue on

Morally Neutral Language of Addiction/Recovery

vs

Sin/Salvation…

I don’t care who started what…I care what works…don’t you?

Would you be interested in discussing the Theologic Virtues and the role they play in human virtue?

 

[Jerusha]

those that go to AA voluntarily with the desire to get help…get help…

I think this is a critical part of the problem. Too many meetings are seriously swamped by people who go only because the judge says so.

Some of the problems in AA are paralleled with those of Mormonism. “The courage to change the things we can,” for example, is often ignored in favor of “The serenity to accept the things we cannot change.” Little wisdom in that. Same as in Mormonism, which justifies human suffering. Another parallel is in taking step-work to people who are not qualified to counsel afterwards.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think this is a critical part of the problem. Too many meetings are seriously swamped by people who go only because the judge says so.

Some of the problems in AA are paralleled with those of Mormonism. “The courage to change the things we can,” for example, is often ignored in favor of “The serenity to accept the things we cannot change.” Little wisdom in that. Same as in Mormonism, which justifies human suffering. Another parallel is in taking step-work to people who are not qualified to counsel afterwards.

Jerusha,

You are correct. The problem is those that know AA, know AA. The Addiction counselors are steeped in AA and they are counselors whose only knowledge is to reinforce AA. How many times does someone have to recite the sinners prayer or go to 90 in 90…go to another meeting, etc…if they don’t get it, they don’t get it…and if not getting it means they continue bad habits…then where is the failure?..with the person or the program?..in that regard…there are other resources that are non-12 step…

soberrecovery.com/links/alternativetreatmentcenters.html

So that the hammer of AA can be used for the nail that wants that hammer…it is not the only way, only a way, and facts show that it has a miserable success rate when considering all comers…it works for those it works for…

I just got off the phone with Shick Shadel in Denver. They have an iteresting program…

also, if you research articles on Naltrexone/CBT…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10553740

Naltrexone and cognitive behavioral therapy for the treatment of outpatient alcoholics: results of a placebo-controlled trial.
Anton RF, Moak DH, Waid LR, Latham PK, Malcolm RJ, Dias JK.
SourceAlcohol Research Center, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston 29425, USA.

RESULTS: The study completion, therapy participation, and medication compliance rates in the trial were high, with no differences between treatment groups. Naltrexone-treated subjects drank less, took longer to relapse, and had more time between relapses. They also exhibited more resistance to and control over alcohol-related thoughts and urges, as measured by a subscale of the Obsessive Compulsive Drinking Scale. Over the study period, 62% of the naltrexone group did not relapse into heavy drinking, in comparison with 40% of the placebo group.

So, the motivated person that has stopped drinking looking for help will do better in 12 weeks than doing nothing. The other note is that in 12 weeks you are futher ahead than you would be if you chose to read a book, attend meetings, and believe you are forever diseased.

Those looking to get help can find someone that practices CBT/Naltrexone and if motivated can have better assurance than if they attended meetings and read a book and made a list of sins after a year…

They can then look to address their sin and salvation…