AA

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God blessed me with another day this morning. I woke up alive thanks be to God.

I’m going to stay clean and sober today like my program taught me…one day at a time.

God bless you all and have a merry Christmas!
 
God blessed me with another day this morning. I woke up alive thanks be to God.

I’m going to stay clean and sober today like my program taught me…one day at a time.

God bless you all and have a merry Christmas!
:Me two:thumbsup:
 
God blessed me with another day this morning. I woke up alive thanks be to God.

I’m going to stay clean and sober today like my program taught me…one day at a time.

God bless you all and have a merry Christmas!
Amen!
 
God blessed me with another day this morning. I woke up alive thanks be to God.

I’m going to stay clean and sober today like my program taught me…one day at a time.

God bless you all and have a merry Christmas!
Mgray,

Bless your staying alive and doing what is right. These threads run about 1000 posts and we are at the half-way point. Much time has been spent on the notion of

Morally Neutral Addiction/Recovery

and as Jesus Christ The Bearer of The Water of Life states dialogue on

Sin and Salvation is important.

You state you were Protestant and are becoming Catholic through RCIA and in that regard I assume you were baptized.

While you celebrate your success, I am concerned about the 95% of those that go to the faux-Christian system of the 12 step religion of AA and fail as well as those that have no appreciation for God…these are people that suffer too. For them they should know that the 12 step religion of AA ranks 37/48 when compared with methods that work and CBT has a better success rate.

While Bill Wilson is felt by some to be a God send…I suggest you meditate on the Revelation of the Father, and what was revealed in these last days…His Son…through which we have access to the father and all the tools anyone can hope to have…and in that regard…

To know the God of your understanding you need Faith, a gift that you receive in Baptism…

Faith and Reason are two wings that allow you to know…the God of our Understanding…
 
Again, those who fear that secular and sectarian pressures might lead Catholic recovering alcoholics away from the church, this is supplemental support:
calixsociety.org/

It may be especially necessary in certain areas of the country.
 
Again, those who fear that secular and sectarian pressures might lead Catholic recovering alcoholics away from the church, this is supplemental support:
calixsociety.org/

It may be especially necessary in certain areas of the country.
Jerusha,

This is a noble experiment…however based on untruth…
The Twelve Step program of Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) is generally accepted as the best therapy for those afflicted with the disease of alcoholism.
At this point the Calix Society can say: “Come back home. You must maintain your sobriety through your affiliation with Alcoholics Anonymous, but let us help you to regain the spiritual life without which you may not succeed in the never-ending fight against your addiction.” Perhaps the disease never will be conquered completely, but the sincere men and women of Calix have the answer of the Calix Society: “Substitute the cup that sanctifies for the cup that stupefies.”
AA/12 step religion is not generally accepted as the best therapy by those that know better…ie 37/48 when compared with methods that work and no published data suggesting greater than a 5% success rate. This premise is anomalous and jades the remainder of the thought.

You do not have to continue to go to AA to mainatain sobriety…you can get some real help and resolve your sin and seek salvation. This statement is only true if the premise is true and it is not universally true or fact.

It does show that the AA premise is non-denominational Christianity and for the lurkers looking for real help this is telling. In reality it is Methodism in disguise and that is why it is easy for courts to see this as religious and courts have seen AA as religion.

So the question for the 95% that fail, lurkers wondering why AA is not working for them or their loved ones is because while those that want others to think and believe that Alcoholism is a disease…you have to ask yourself…

Disease…

Treated by going to meetings, reading a book, working with Sponsors, all communication is up the chain of those with more time, all problems are met with…

Let’s do the sinner’s prayer
Do 90 in 90 call me back
Go to another meeting
Read this chapeter in the book
Go to a speaker meeting
Go to a Big Book Meeting

Treatment???:eek:

All by non-professionals whose only expertise is knowing the steps and taking you through them…Disease? Please…only those that swallowed the brainwashing that it is a disease believe it is a disease.
 
working with Sponsors, all communication is up the chain of those with more time,
I think it can be a good place to find the right confessor. I never found a sponsor who met my needs well enough. They were flying blind, just like I was. I found the right confessor, finally. And he looks like my father, too. :cool:
 
Treatment???:eek:
All by non-professionals whose only expertise is knowing the steps and taking you through them…Disease? Please…only those that swallowed the brainwashing that it is a disease believe it is a disease.
AA never says it’s a disease. The AMA said that. We call it an “allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind”. I agree with that assessment.

I know of no one who has “recovered” in a 28 day “treatment center”. Not even a year-long program. Treatment is a bout discovering you are indeed an alcoholic. Recovery happens in the real world. Treatment helps you get over the jitters, but I was barely sober after 28 days. I went to the Mayo clinic for treatment and it was those very professionals who told me that unless I go to AA I would not survive. They were right. I have never actually swallowed the “disease” claim. I almost think it’s a cop out for some. But the allergy and obsession make sense to me. It’s like thinking you can moderate your eating of strawberries if you’re allergic. I consider myself allergic to alcohol so I don’t consume it.

I also go to my Priest for a 5th step as often as I can… however, I call it the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. 😉

Again, Merry Christmas!
Steph
 
AA never says it’s a disease. The AMA said that. We call it an “allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind”. I agree with that assessment.

I know of no one who has “recovered” in a 28 day “treatment center”. Not even a year-long program. Treatment is a bout discovering you are indeed an alcoholic. Recovery happens in the real world. Treatment helps you get over the jitters, but I was barely sober after 28 days. I went to the Mayo clinic for treatment and it was those very professionals who told me that unless I go to AA I would not survive. They were right. I have never actually swallowed the “disease” claim. I almost think it’s a cop out for some. But the allergy and obsession make sense to me. It’s like thinking you can moderate your eating of strawberries if you’re allergic. I consider myself allergic to alcohol so I don’t consume it.

I also go to my Priest for a 5th step as often as I can… however, I call it the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. 😉

Again, Merry Christmas!
Steph
I never thought about. I know a lot of people who didn’t like the disease analogy but I never really cared what it was referred as. I just knew it was destroying me and my relationship with everyone I loved. I Am forever thankful for the people l met in those meetings, the encouragement they gave me, the story’s they shared .
 
AA never says it’s a disease. The AMA said that. We call it an “allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind”. I agree with that assessment.

I know of no one who has “recovered” in a 28 day “treatment center”. Not even a year-long program. Treatment is a bout discovering you are indeed an alcoholic. Recovery happens in the real world. Treatment helps you get over the jitters, but I was barely sober after 28 days. I went to the Mayo clinic for treatment and it was those very professionals who told me that unless I go to AA I would not survive. They were right. I have never actually swallowed the “disease” claim. I almost think it’s a cop out for some. But the allergy and obsession make sense to me. It’s like thinking you can moderate your eating of strawberries if you’re allergic. I consider myself allergic to alcohol so I don’t consume it.

I also go to my Priest for a 5th step as often as I can… however, I call it the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. 😉

Again, Merry Christmas!
Steph
Steph,

You know what you experience and what you learn.

Recovery. How about stop drinking and start living?

Allergy is nonsense. There is such a thing as allergy to alcohol but not related to getting drunk and it is rare. Obsession of the mind is focus on thought and habit.

The Mayo Clinic sent you to AA and fortunately you fell into the 5% that succeeded however that does not relate to fact. You are improved.

Believing you are an alcoholic or any other such thought is a as you believe, so you think and act. If you chose to believe you made a mistake and chose not to drink ever again, then you are no longer anything but someone that learned from their mistakes.

Your priest as a confessor is great.

and having gone to AA, the God of your understanding is known by Faith…a gift you get in Baptism…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”

CHAPTER THREE
MAN’S RESPONSE TO GOD

Baptism

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm
  • Faith as a virtue is more than what Protestant’s call trust…it is how we come to know the living God and if in your quest for the God of your understanding then you need Faith to understand…
1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith "work through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83
What you believe is known by Revelation, as revealed to the Church and is seen in the Catechism, so it behooves you to know what is revealed so that you can know and profess it…therefore you must read and study the Catechsim…something John Paul II, says…
I therefore strongly urge my Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate, for whom the Catechism is primarily intended, to take the excellent opportunity afforded by the promulgation of this Latin edition to intensify their efforts to disseminate the text more widely and to ensure that it is well received as an outstanding gift for the communities entrusted to them, which **will thus be able to rediscover the inexhaustible riches of the faith. **
It requires you to profess it and to expound it and it plays a role in human virtue as well…
1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77
So when you were Baptized, you were given the gifts of Faith, Hope and Charity…and these virtues that allow you to animate moral life, give life to moral virtues, allow you to have the capacity to act as a child of God because on your own you can do nothing…
 
I never thought about. I know a lot of people who didn’t like the **disease analogy **but I never really cared what it was referred as. I just knew it was destroying me and my relationship with everyone I loved. I Am forever thankful for the people l met in those meetings, the encouragement they gave me, the story’s they shared .
Estes,

This is a step forward and progress to realizing that it is an analogy and not a disease…

I suggest anyone wanting to see the truth about this myth, read this book, the lurkers wondering about this nonsense can see that it is only a myth perpetuated by those that choose not to learn from the past…recall you cannot change the past, but you can learn from it…Most 12 step disciples learn this…

It is also important to recongize that AA/12 step religion is a mix of Christian thought and most closely aligned with the Methodist beliefs…The Catechism of the USA for adults states the following…
The Catholic Church retains the structures of episcopal leadership and sacramental life that are the gift of Christ to his Church (cf. CCC, nos. 765, 766) and that date back to apostolic times. At the same time, the Catholic Church recognizes that the Holy Spirit uses other churches and ecclesial communities “as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church” (CCC, no. 819; LG, no. 8). Depending on what and how much of the elements of sanctincation and truth (UR, no. 3) these communities have retained, they have a certain though imperfect com¬munion with the Catholic Church. There are also real differences. In some cases “there are very weighty differences not only of a historical, sociological, psychological and cultural character, but especially in the interpretation of revealed truth” (UR, no. 19).
amazon.com/Heavy-Drinking-Myth-Alcoholism-Disease/dp/0520067541

Technically speaking AA is not an ecclesial community and therefore would be absent any means of grace or salvation however if one chose to go to a Methodist Church and learn the Methodist method rather than going to AA and get the same indoctrination into Alcoholic/Sinner…abstinence and the meetings…the Methodist participant would exit a sinner and not diseased…on the other hand…

The Catholic Church recognizes other religions as an attempt for those that do not know God to prepare for the fullness of the Gospel…
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
Therefore those that go to AA and plan to become Catholic would be considered as prepared to hear the Gospel…

Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease [Paperback]
 
Again, Coptic, I go to the culture in which you live and work.

I agree with you, alcohol abuse is a a sin. However, a diabetic who does not take care of his(her) disease is sinning. A person who has emotional problems and refuses meds and counseling is sinning. Therefore, disease is an excellent analogy, reducing self-perpetuating guilt. The strong prohibition of alcohol use in LDS culture places social stigma on drinking, to the point that a person who has had a drinking problem is also severely socially stigmatized. Since alcohol use and the loss of sexual self-control are inextricably intertwined, both are so severely stigmatized in LDS culture that forgiveness (from their god) only happens when the community forgives them-- which is likely to be never. So, your difficulty with the analogy becomes particularly clear when we look at forgiveness within the Catholic Tradition vs. forgiveness within LDS tradition. Participation in the AA community, where there is a strong LDS community, is therefore severely stigmatized.

Point-- some of the most well-known deep-enders among LDS apologists on the internet are known to have had problems with alcohol. Point-- B.H. Roberts, a LDS apologist from the early 20th century is known as having had a difficult personality, and a drinking problem in his younger years. He became a GA, church historian, and was probably a private non-believer, conforming to his church for purely worldly reasons. Point-- personal experience.
 
Again, Coptic, I go to the culture in which you live and work.

I agree with you, alcohol abuse is a a sin. However, a diabetic who does not take care of his(her) disease is sinning. A person who has emotional problems and refuses meds and counseling is sinning. Therefore, disease is an excellent analogy, reducing self-perpetuating guilt. The strong prohibition of alcohol use in LDS culture places social stigma on drinking, to the point that a person who has had a drinking problem is also severely socially stigmatized. Since alcohol use and the loss of sexual self-control are inextricably intertwined, both are so severely stigmatized in LDS culture that forgiveness (from their god) only happens when the community forgives them-- which is likely to be never. So, your difficulty with the analogy becomes particularly clear when we look at forgiveness within the Catholic Tradition vs. forgiveness within LDS tradition. Participation in the AA community, where there is a strong LDS community, is therefore severely stigmatized.

Point-- some of the most well-known deep-enders among LDS apologists on the internet are known to have had problems with alcohol. Point-- B.H. Roberts, a LDS apologist from the early 20th century is known as having had a difficult personality, and a drinking problem in his younger years. He became a GA, church historian, and was probably a private non-believer, conforming to his church for purely worldly reasons. Point-- personal experience.
Jerusha,

Were you LDS at one time?

I was watching the television and saw that a star was drugging herself to death until it became known that she was in an incestuous relationship with her father since age 19 among other things.

If you can imagine and believe that all of this exess is nothing more than self medication or self excess for reasons that abound…then this makes sense. No rehab, no repeat of the steps, no 90 in 90, sinners prayer, asking for relief would have helped resolve the internal conflict of the star that carried the burden of incest…CBT and real help can aid those that suffer from excess and an attempt to self medicate away their problems with drugs, porn, people whatever…the underlying problem is the problem and not a disease…just problems magnified to the point that instead of recognizing the need for help and seeking help…reasons cause stagnation and excess and thus the problem…not a disease…just a problem looking for a solution…

CBT is the best help to be offered for those that need help for problems and it isn’t meant to last a lifetime, nor stigmatize anyone with the notion that they are diseased.
 
I went through CBT for treatment of the thought patterns associated with depression, and it was VERY effective. I recommend it for anyone.

No, I have never been LDS. However, I was raised among them in Hancock County, Illinois (ask 2pekin). Therefore, there was cultural influence (contamination). Many also bear intergenerational prejudice against people with deep non-Mormon roots in that county.
 
I’m fully aware of Sister Ignatia’s involvement. but thanks for the link. AA does not teach people how to stop drinking. It’s a program that teaches a certain type of “spirituality”, and tells people that if they confess their sins to other members, pray to the god of their choice, etc they will stop drinking as a result. This has absolutely no basis in medical fact or evidence-based treatment. Although God may of course heal whom He chooses and I don’t deny that–it happens all the time–He does not require that they be in AA for Him to do so. We don’t tell people with other disorders, be they physical or mental, to go to such meetings, and follow such steps in order to be cured. They may choose to pray to God for healing and if they do so good for them, but we still provide them with evidence based treatment, medication if called for, therapy, etc. We don’t just tell people “go to these meetings and do the steps and you will be healed” and then, if they are NOT healed as a result, tell them"well, you must be ‘one of those unfortunates’ mentioned in the Big Book who cannot be honest, or you didn’t do one of the steps correctly, or something–but keep coming back and keep trying over and over and over". No, we offer them medical treatment for their medical disorder.

AA was put together in the 1930’s by a stockbroker and a proctologist based on the methods of the Oxford Group, as I mentioned. AT that time there was very little in the way of successful medical treatment for alcoholics or addicts. That is no longer true–yet AA has steadfastly refused to incorporate new scientific facts and findings into the program, nor have they updated the Big Book to be better understood by a new generation–it is filled with dated terminology and references to people and events in the distant past that almost no one today would recognize, as well as extremely sexist sections (the chapter “To The Wives”, ostensibly written by Bill’s wife, was actually written by Bill himself, and assumes that all alcoholics are men, and that their wives are “nags and wet blankets” that drive hubby to drink or to cavort with other women. etc).

AA presents itself as a highly successful program, however, AA’s very own triennial survey of membership, it was reported that only 5% of incoming members are still there, sober, one year later. After this became public, they ceased asking that question in the surveys.

Support groups are fine as far as that goes, but they are not cures. God can most certainly heal someone of ANY disease of course, but He does not need AA to do so.

All that being said, if people are comfortable in AA and feel it is helping them, more power to them. Fr. Serpa here has in past linked to a Catholic 12 step page that may be helpful to some, here:

12-step-review.org/

and here is a link to some other support groups:

orange-papers.org/orange-alt_list.html
AA began the whole thing of making your own higher power as a way to not turn-off agnostics and atheists.

In practice AA groups often close with the Serenity Prayer or the Our Father. The latter is fundamentally Christian, or we might go so far as to say, fundamentally Catholic (like baptism).

So, AA contradicts itself in those respects.

But AA attempts to function within diversity of beliefs, people, and cultures similar to the U.S. military or the United States of America along with it’s U.S. Constitution which one infers from “separation of church and state.”

AA is no more anti-Christian than the U.S. military or the United States of America with its atheists, Muslims, and many Protestants and others of every religious beliefs.

Like the U.S. military has non-Christians and atheists in its ranks but unites people around a common goal of the military, so to AA unites diverse groups of people around their common goal: stop drinking.

I agree with you AA has a low success rate. But so does the Catholic Church when it comes to turning the vast majority of Catholics into saints.

And you are correct, AA’s methods are not that of scientific rationalism but more akin to that of Catholicisms and religions, a spiritual, non-rational method to growth and conversion.

Medical science really has no cure for substance addictions so far. Perhaps one day. Or perhaps maybe it never will. Baffled, medical science embraces the ancient thinking of religions: will power and “wanting.”

But wanting to change is not evidence of freedom, it is the evidence of enslavement of the lack of liberty or freedom. It’s ironic that it is political philosophers that comprehend this better than medical scientists. It’s what those philosophers call having 1st, 2nd, 3rd order desires and so on.
 
AA began the whole thing of making your own higher power as a way to not turn-off agnostics and atheists.

In practice AA groups often close with the Serenity Prayer or the Our Father. The latter is fundamentally Christian, or we might go so far as to say, fundamentally Catholic (like baptism).

So, AA contradicts itself in those respects.

But AA attempts to function within diversity of beliefs, people, and cultures similar to the U.S. military or the United States of America along with it’s U.S. Constitution which one infers from “separation of church and state.”

AA is no more anti-Christian than the U.S. military or the United States of America with its atheists, Muslims, and many Protestants and others of every religious beliefs.

Like the U.S. military has non-Christians and atheists in its ranks but unites people around a common goal of the military, so to AA unites diverse groups of people around their common goal: stop drinking.

I agree with you AA has a low success rate. But so does the Catholic Church when it comes to turning the vast majority of Catholics into saints.

And you are correct, AA’s methods are not that of scientific rationalism but more akin to that of Catholicisms and religions, a spiritual, non-rational method to growth and conversion.

**Medical science really has no cure for substance addictions so far. Perhaps one day. **Or perhaps maybe it never will. Baffled, medical science embraces the ancient thinking of religions: will power and “wanting.”

But wanting to change is not evidence of freedom, it is the evidence of enslavement of the lack of liberty or freedom. It’s ironic that it is political philosophers that comprehend this better than medical scientists. It’s what those philosophers call having 1st, 2nd, 3rd order desires and so on.
Time,

There will never be a cure as long as people think of it as something to be cured. It is not a disease and the tragedy is that it is difficult to eliminate the word from dialogue.

What can be done is recognition that people make choices, people need help, and there are 36 better ways of getting that help and you don’t have to believe you are diseased to get help. This is the first and most important step. When people know and realize that help can be had then help can be sought in the proper venue, rather than in the miserable venue and failure of Faith based work as in AA.
 
When people know and realize that help can be had then help can be sought in the proper venue, rather than in the miserable venue and failure of Faith based work as in AA.
Coptic, these kinds of pronouncements from you are why I think you are making a mistake in how you express your views.

I’ve haven’t had time to reply to your last post addressed to me, and I don’t know when I will have that time—it won’t be this week at any rate. But I do want to find the time to do so. Perhaps I can post bits and pieces of a reply when I’m able.
 
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