AA

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, these kinds of pronouncements from you are why I think you are making a mistake in how you express your views.

I’ve haven’t had time to reply to your last post addressed to me, and I don’t know when I will have that time—it won’t be this week at any rate. But I do want to find the time to do so. Perhaps I can post bits and pieces of a reply when I’m able.

Abide,

Take your time.

You believe I am making a mistake in expressing my views.

Faith Based work as in AA…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22476161

Psychiatr Serv. 2012 Jun;63(6):597-604. doi: 10.1176/appi.ps.201100315.
Physicians’ beliefs about faith-based treatments for alcoholism.
Lawrence RE, Rasinski KA, Yoon JD, Koenig HG, Meador KG, Curlin FA.

METHODS:
A survey was mailed to a national sample of U.S. primary care physicians and psychiatrists. It included a brief vignette of a nominally religious 47-year-old man hospitalized for acute alcohol poisoning who requested addiction treatment. Physicians rated the likely effectiveness of three treatment methods: Alcoholics Anonymous, pharmacological therapy by an addiction specialist, and a residential program. Physicians were asked whether they would refer the patient to a faith-based program (beyond Alcoholics Anonymous) and whether an emphasis on spirituality is critical to 12-step program success.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9358602

The universality of a self-help program of American origin: narcotics anonymous in Israel.
Ronel N.
Source
Bob Shapell School of Social Work, Tel Aviv University, Ramat Aviv, Israel.

Abstract
A phenomenological field study of Narcotics Anonymous (NA) in Israel focused on the way a self-help program, based on American Christian ideology was adopted in Israel.

AA/12 steps is Faith based as I have expressed before, it is based on Methodism, Oxford Groupers and has been delcared to be religous by some courts and religion by others. Dick B. outlines the religious roots of AA…

dickb.com/articles.shtml

These are facts…AA is a Faith based approach to a problem of behavior that forces acceptance of the disease model as you have seen…a disease that is not a disease…

that leaves my impression and understanding based on studies as to the opinion of this approach that you may not like, however not a mistake.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, these kinds of pronouncements from you are why I think you are making a mistake in how you express your views.

I’ve haven’t had time to reply to your last post addressed to me, and I don’t know when I will have that time—it won’t be this week at any rate. But I do want to find the time to do so. Perhaps I can post bits and pieces of a reply when I’m able.

Abide,

Hope you have not forgotten me…since you last posted I have discovered more and just recently I was asked to review the following program…

behaviortherapy.com/

scroll down to the bottom of this website and you will see…

Intro
Motivation
Urges
Self-Management
Lifestyle

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01389297

Motivation

and Dr. Peele’s Modules

Motivation is the 3rd Module…

If you click on those you will see something that is forthcoming and avaiable as an evidence based program that works.

Many people ask why so many priests go to AA, my answer is based on what Catholics post here, they probably don’t know any better. I will probably go to my local Bishop and inform him and may write a letter to the Vatican about the dissemination of Disease/Religion/12 steps of AA. Might as well…

Perhaps if the Bishop knew of alternatives fewer priests would be in AA…

 

[Mgray82]

Went to a recovery dance last night. Drug and alcohol free, to celebrate 2013.

Doctors office wasn’t open. But AA was.

 

[CopticChristian]

Went to a recovery dance last night. Drug and alcohol free, to celebrate 2013.

Doctors office wasn’t open. But AA was.

Mgray,

Fortunately you don’t have a disease. If you were sick with a disease there are Doctors on call and emergency rooms…

…this website below has all the reasons that addiction is not a disease…

soberforever.net/current_research.cfm

• The Baldwin Research Project of 1990
• Alcoholism is Not a Disease
• Treatment Doesn’t Work
• New York State OASAS Certified Treatment Programs
• Adolescent Treatment Research
• ‘Addiction and the Brain’
• Alcoholism is Not a Disease
• No Genetically or Biological Predisposition found in ‘Addictive’ Behaviours

A book, called Heavy Drinking, exposes the myth of the Disease and from that book comes the following, same as what you will find above…

The disease model was proposed by a guy named Jellinek…subsequently dispelled as untrue by even him and is referred to as Junk Science…

Jellinek’s highly influential articles were based on questionnaires completed by 98 male members of A.A. Of the 158 questionnaires returned, Jellinek had eliminated 60, ex¬cluding the data from some A.A. members who had pooled and averaged their answers on a single questionnaire because they shared their newsletter. Jellinek also excluded all ques¬tionnaires filled out by women because their answers differed greatly from the men’s. No wonder Jellinek spoke of the limi¬tations of the data. And no wonder his data conformed so closely to the A.A. model. Even in 1960, Jellinek acknowl¬edged the lack of any demonstrated scientific foundation for his proposals.

and what you don’t know can hurt you…the reason you are told it is a disease is to cause you to seek help…

Misleading the Public for Its Own Good

Another important influence on the public conduct of sci¬entists is the concern that revealing the bankruptcy of the classic disease concept might discourage heavy drinkers from seeking help. The essence of this rationale is that if chronic drinkers are told that there is no disease of alcoholism, they will see their drinking as a personal failing; out of guilt and shame, they will tend to hide or deny their problems. But however well-intentioned, this line of thinking can confuse the issue for the public. When scientists use the word disease in regard to alcoholism, the public naturally assumes that de¬cisive scientific evidence justifies the usage.

In technical publications unread by the general public, at least several scientists have discussed the social utility of clas¬sifying alcohol abuse as a disease:
In specific circumstances it may be desirable for sociocultural, legal, political, and therapeutic goals to label alcohol dependenceas a “disease,” perhaps especially at the time of acute physical symptomatology. At the same time the alcohol-dependent per¬son may appropriately be labeled as “sick.” Such circumstances should be carefully delineated and limited in application to spe¬cific situations.

To have persuaded society to shift a particular type of deviancy from the bad role to the sick role could . . . whatever the logic, whatever the science, prove to be an event of importance.

The decision as to when a syndrome is to be designated a disease is in large measure socially determined and must be congruent with wider cultural interests and habits.
Calling alcoholism a disease, rather than a behavior disorder, is a useful device both to persuade the alcoholic to admit his alco¬holism and to provide a ticket for admission into the health care system. I willingly concede, however, that alcohol dependence lies on a continuum and that in scientific terms behavior disorder will often be a happier semantic choice than disease.23

1. The four sources quoted are Pattison, “The Selection of Treat¬
   ment Modalities for the Alcoholic Patient” (1985), 192; Edwards,
   “The Status of Alcoholism as a Disease” (1970), 161; Edwards et
   al., Alcohol-Related Disabilities (1977), 9; and Vaillant, The Natural
   History of Alcoholism (1983), 20.

The above information is available in Heavy Drinking…the Myth…

 

[jesuspsr]

Went to a recovery dance last night. Drug and alcohol free, to celebrate 2013.

Doctors office wasn’t open. But AA was.

Me to!

One Day At A Time

 

[jesuspsr]

When I was answering the phone lines at central office a couple of years ago with my sponsor a gentleman walked in and handed him a Dr. prescription.
On it was written:
Big Book
12X12
As Bill Sees It
Introduction Packet

I couldent believe it, and I knew no one else would, so I had him make me a copy of it.
View attachment 15804

Pretty cool.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

Hope you have not forgotten me…since you last posted I have discovered more and just recently I was asked to review the following program…

Hi Coptic, I haven’t forgotten. I’m just working towards a deadline and really focused on my work, so when I visit CAF these days I’m mostly reading joke threads or playing word games in the Clubhouse.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Coptic, I haven’t forgotten. I’m just working towards a deadline and really focused on my work, so when I visit CAF these days I’m mostly reading joke threads or playing word games in the Clubhouse.

Abide,

Ok

A drunken man staggers in to a Catholic church and wanders over to the confessional box. He opens the door, sits down and says nothing.

The bewildered priest waits for a few minutes, allowing the drunken man some time to collect his thoughts. Growing impatient, the priest coughs to attract his attention, but still the man says nothing.

The priest then knocks on the wall three times in a final attempt to get the man to speak. Finally, the drunk replies: “No use knockin’ mate, there’s no paper in this one either.”

 

[AbideWithMe]

Abide,

Ok

Crude but funny! Thanks.

Happy New Year to all.

 

[CopticChristian]

Crude but funny! Thanks.

Happy New Year to all.

Abide,

This is posted to you but any of the 12 step knowledgeable people can help out and agree or disagree…consider the following scenario…

Let us just say for discussion sake that someone drank, drank more, lost their job, their family, went to jail, stole, lied, manipulated people and was immodest, and finally went to AA. After 5 years this person turned their life around…this person now does the following….

This person extends themselves regularly to people, loving them, volunteering, helping when asked and looking for ways to contribute and finding joy in doing it….

This person is no longer troubled by things that caused trouble in the past, has peace and not turmoil and deals with people with patience, they are kind to people and people like this person.

This person appears to be showing general goodness, is not selfish, does not steal, is generous and has a gentle manner as opposed to an angry temperament. The family can count on them as they are faithful to them and to others, a person of their word.

In their personal life rather than being worldly, they have found modesty and do not dress outlandish, exercise self control with the opposite sex and are models of a chaste life. People of the opposite sex trust this person and see a model of goodness and genuineness

Is there agreement of diagreement that what I posted is a change in what was to a rehabilitated, recovered individual previously out of control?

 

[estesbob]

Abide,

This is posted to you but any of the 12 step knowledgeable people can help out and agree or disagree…consider the following scenario…

Let us just say for discussion sake that someone drank, drank more, lost their job, their family, went to jail, stole, lied, manipulated people and was immodest, and finally went to AA. After 5 years this person turned their life around…this person now does the following….

Is there agreement of diagreement that what I posted is a change in what was to a rehabilitated, recovered individual previously out of control?

Hes just a drink away tron returning to where he was 5 years ago]

 

[LongJourney]

He is just a drink away from returning to where he was 5 years ago.

Probably, but not necessarily.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hes just a drink away tron returning to where he was 5 years ago]

Estes,

Ok, for discussion sakes let us agree that you are correct. Would you consider this person that is a drink away has made progress, not perfection.

You would agree that the 12 step paradigm accepts progress and not perfection.

So, does this person exhibit progress and is making a positive effort knowing that they are one drink away from where they were 5 years ago?

 

[CopticChristian]

Probably, but not necessarily.

LJ,

So you do not necessarily agree totally as far as where this person is.

Would you agree that this person has made progress and if we found someone that was doing this after their former life then we would consider this person to be in recovery and rehabilitated and not necessarily one drink away from their former life?

 

[LongJourney]

LJ,

So you do not necessarily agree totally as far as where this person is.

Would you agree that this person has made progress and if we found someone that was doing this after their former life then we would consider this person to be in recovery and rehabilitated and not necessarily one drink away from their former life?

Not necessarily one drink away from their former life. Such a person is in recovery, as the individual has regained control over his life.

 

[CopticChristian]

Not necessarily one drink away from their former life. Such a person is in recovery, as the individual has regained control over his life.

LJ,

So the person I described is in recovery…good enough. Now as a Catholic may I ask you this…would you agree that this is our profession of Faith?

We believe (I believe ) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begottenSon of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God ) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for usmen and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man ; was crucified also for us underPontius Pilate, suffered and wasburied ; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe ) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son ), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by theProphets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. **We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. **And we look for (I look for) theresurrection of the dead and thelife of the world to come. Amen."

Now the Catechism is divided into 4 parts…

Profession of Faith…seen above
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ, commandments and Morality
Prayer…

In light of this can we agree that as the Catechism says, we are baptized for the remission of sins and the Catechism says that we recieve the gifts of Faith/Hope/Charity…the theologic virtues…fair enough…

Now in consideration that God calls us, we respond, and that the Catechism says we can know God…can we agree as the Catechism states concerning theologic virtues…

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

and the gift of Faith…

• Faith

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith "work through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83

as we know when Peter was asked, who do you say I am…Jesus told Peter that it was not flesh that revealed this but Faith, a gift from the Father…and

IN BRIEF
44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.

46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 § 1: DS 3026),

48 We really can name God, starting from the manifold perfections of his creatures, which are likenesses of the infinitely perfect God, even if our limited language cannot exhaust the mystery.

49 Without the Creator, the creature vanishes (GS 36). This is the reason why believers know that the love of Christ urges them to bring the light of the living God to those who do not know him or who reject him.

God calls us, we respond, and God gives us the tool of Faith to know and understand revealed truths…Ok…

I cannot imagine that any Catholic would find this objectionable or would argue these issues.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hes just a drink away tron returning to where he was 5 years ago]

Estes,

So this person, one drink away, achieved the result that I posted and to do it they needed help…look at the following scenario…

This person that turned their life around did not do it on their own. They needed help. They talked to someone, let us say a Sponsor and that sponsor may eve be a priest. While doing what is necessary to cause a change they realized that what they knew about life formerly was not wise and in making decisions they learned that they had to have some understanding that they got through the process and with that understanding they gained some wisdom. This person also through working their program learned ways to act correctly, developed strength and assurance in their attitude to make sound decisions learning to properly judge right and wrong. They became able to overcome their fears. These fears previously were a source of discontent. They were arrogant at one time and learned to be humble and is approaching God…they saw a wonder and awe and a desire to please God, not wanting to offend God. These things are the result of the program. They knew that they could not change the past, but they could learn from it and the program and this realization caused the change.

Would you agree at least in part that a program would cause someone to effect changes I described?

 

[CopticChristian]

Not necessarily one drink away from their former life. Such a person is in recovery, as the individual has regained control over his life.

LJ,

Ok, so this person who was a horrible mess because of wrong action with whatever poison…started this way, by first giving up the substance and then going to a program for help and this is how it started…

So, this person when they first started out got smart. They got educated in what was right. The program, the sponsor, the reading, talking to others, frequently being with other people made a difference. They started deliberately doing acts that were good and did not sway in spite of temptation and repeatedly put forth effort. This person asked for God’s help, seeking God and in doing so learned to put certain principles into action. Previous to this awakening this person acted unreasonably and now with the use of reason was able to discern moral issues and choose wisely. This person realizing wrongs committed changed their attitude towards others and was honest and treated people fairly. This person had fears and soon learned with practice to facing difficulty without fear and in practicing these habits noticed that it was a good thing to pay attention to inclinations of desire and temper them as it regards pleasure and selfishness. This person learned that by understanding all these things, changing the way they saw things, using their intellect, right action and knowing that what they did was nothing more than willing this or that and found that they could reasonably address emotions, desires and actions. In doing these things they found themselves approaching God for help regularly.

Would you agree that first you have to give up whatever substance you need to overcome, then find a program, work the program and what I have outlined here is the beginning of the program.

What I have done is posted in reverse…the beginning of the program, progress in the program, and what the program has done for this person today that may or may not be one drink away from their problem…

Would this be acceptable?

 

[LongJourney]

Sure. But you are addressing a more general way to recovery than what AA teaches. I don’t object. Whatever works.

BTW, many psychologists/counselors require their client to abstain from drinking/using during therapy. It is often used as an escape from having insight into their issues, whether it is the primary presenting problem or not. Particularly when PTSD is involved. Remembering may be emotionally difficult.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sure. But you are addressing a more general way to recovery than what AA teaches. I don’t object. Whatever works.

BTW, many psychologists/counselors require their client to abstain from drinking/using during therapy. It is often used as an escape from having insight into their issues, whether it is the primary presenting problem or not. Particularly when PTSD is involved. Remembering may be emotionally difficult.

LJ,

Help me out here, throw me a bone…regardless of the more general way…whatever the program may be would you agree that the results of what this person started with, the progress, and ultimate outcome would be deemed admirable and consistent with what is commonly called “recovery”…?