AA

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So, to sum this up; alcoholism is not a disease, but I can’t prove it’s not.

Either God exists or He don’t.
This is a pointless discussion. Let them talk to themselves. I don’t really care what they decide. I know my own and others’ experiences from the inside. To me, the disease model is just the best one that helps the most people to recover. So far. I’m not going to go any further with this.
 
Why do I feel like I’m engaged with a debate with Protestants?

I hope you all are happy the Church has a guy with this much enthusiasm about AA as I do Christ’s Church.
 
This is a pointless discussion. Let them talk to themselves. I don’t really care what they decide. I know my own and others’ experiences from the inside. To me, the disease model is just the best one that helps the most people to recover. So far. I’m not going to go any further with this.
That’s the thing. Who cares if it isn’t a disease? Call it the beer-pox if you want…it’s dangerous and will ruin your life in an instant.

I ain’t doing this for them. It helps me with my sobriety, plus I pray someone reads this and sees the truth they’ve been looking for.
 
RJ,

The entire paragraph in red is think speak of the AA 12 step paragigm that I cannot dialogue in. I deny this entire concept as do others. It is not a disease. There is no allergy to alcohol. Do a google search on Alcohol Allergy and you will be astounded. It exists but it is rare and not attributable to the AA paradigm.

Your questions are good questions. There are answers and I suggest you do some reading and I would start with The Truth About Addiction by Stanton Peele, read the stuff on the websites St. Gregory, St Jude and Schick Shadel, as well as the stuff by Hester on what works.

I don’t have a problem with AA, I have a problem with truth. It is a lie that Alcoholism is a disease and while waiting for the proof it never came. I can provide you the evidence for this sham disease but I have to go pick up my daughter and friends. I shall return. Research the name Jellinek…he is the guy that published a paper that got this disease stuff started…I will later post it and those that point out the weakness of the paper that he later denied and more.
Look my brother, I don’t really care what you think about alcoholism. But rather you like to admit it or not, you know there’s some folks out there that take a little too kindly to it. So much so, they’d give their own soul for it.

I’m one of those sinners that happened to make it out alive. And I know that God put me in AA to rinse me of my quarrels with alcohol…the same God of “my understanding” that led me home to the Catholic Church and put me right here tonight to talk to you about it. If it weren’t for God giving me AA, I can assure you this conversation would not be happening. You are experiencing a miracle reading this very text. Don’t believe me? Ask God.

I know you’re smart and intellectual. I know you can tell that I’m not an idiot. So I ask you kindly to consider AA or alcoholism as a serious thing. You’ve used a lot of sarcasm, and I’m cool with it. But see, it ain’t real funny to me because I’m here typing this out to you while one of our brothers or sisters is out there dying from what we’re talking about.

I help these people daily. It’s what I do. I know what I know. You don’t believe it…fine. Doesn’t affect my life. But I don’t have to answer to The Lord as to why I never helped a drunk or addict. Because he knows I have.

I really suggest you pray about this.

Christ be with you.
 
Whether alcoholism is or is not a disease is a red herring in any discussion of problem and solution. Even if alcoholism were a classic, textbook disease, the alcoholic would still be responsible for everything s/he did under the influence. Therefore, alcoholism as “disease” is then relegated to alcoholism as “excuse”.

I acknowledge the phenomena of obsession and compulsion, and of craving, and I also don’t believe medicine or science truly knows what alcoholism is. At least, and answer to this question has not been authoritatively proffered, in my opinion. A medical doctor might wish to portray alcoholism as a disease so he can portray himself as a cure. This angle has been played ad nauseam by the recovery industry.

Not everybody believes in God or is willing to walk through the 12 steps and live their lives according to the values which develop as a byproduct of adopting the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA has a pretty poor “success” rate, at least insofar as the available data suggest. But it is possible to sober up while in AA and get oneself right with God, self and other human beings. I think far too many people balk at the possibility because they want to argue every small point and impress upon their groups their very tiresome “specialness”. That difference can very well kill them if they don’t get help somewhere.

Don’t get me wrong. I sobered up in AA, am very grateful for everything it taught me, and have been continuously sober for 28 1/2 years. It can work if people lay down their arms and try.
 
Do you give your patients alcohol as medication doctor?

But, you certainly are on to something. This phenomena is not common in narcotic addicts though right doc? When they relapse after sufficient sobriety times they can die very easily from too much narcotic.

How do you reconcile this?

I’ll be sure to get all this to the orthopedic surgeon who attends AA meeting with me by the way.
Mgray,

Alchohol is an OTC medication found in products like Nyquil…Alcohol infusions are used by Some Plastic Surgeons that do liposuction to prevent fat embolism.

There are many different ways to kill yourself with numerous poisons. Arsenic has its time frame. Cocaine is dangerous, Heroin is dangerous, it is difficult to overdose on Marijuana, Barbs can kill you particularly when combined with alcohol…Alcohol in combination can be deadly…Poisons are dangerous…

How do I reconcile what?

Tell the Orthopedic Surgeon when you meet him to read the study by Jellinek and point him to this website here…

soberforever.net/current_research.cfm

and here…

soberforever.net/researchdisease2003.cfm
The disease concept originated in the 1800s with a fellow by the name of Dr. Benjamin Rush. He believed those who drank too much alcohol were diseased and used the idea to promote his prohibitionist political platform.
The first step was** Jellinek **publishing his findings in his book “The Disease Concept of Alcoholism,” which was based on selected subjects who fit the criteria supporting Mann’s preconceived conclusions. Later, E.M. Jellinek was asked by Yale University to refute his own findings. He complied. E.M. Jellinek’s The Disease Concept of Alcoholism did not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
Early in the 20th Century, the validity of the disease concept was often debated in medical circles. However, in 1956 the American Medical Association (AMA) proclaimed alcoholism an “illness.” Then, in 1966, the AMA proclaimed alcoholism a disease. The decision was embroiled in controversy. Historically, Marty Mann had her hand in much of this and manipulated information and doctors into agreeing with the disease concept. Marty Mann used her position as founder of the NCA (National Counsel for Alcoholism) to promote the disease concept through Jellinek and the founder of the NIAAA (National Institute for Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse) whose founder worked with Marty Mann during the institute’s early development.
and here…

soberforever.net/alcoholism-disease.cfm
First it is important to understand that the disease theory is just that - a theory. Additionally, it is important to understand that this theory is only accepted as fact by the rehab, rehabilitation, and treatment industry here in the United States. The rest of the world considers the disease theory for alcoholism pure bunk. In his book Why We Should Reject The Disease Concept of Alcoholism, Herbert Fingarette, Ph.D., makes the following observations:
Let me know what the good Doctor thinks of these facts:thumbsup:
 
I’ve never relapsed after this much sobriety time. Coming into AA I relapsed a handful of times with the longest period of sobriety being around 30-45 days. I have 2 years now.
Mgray,

Some people relapse more than others. Some stop drinking and never drink again. Some stop drinking and then can drink and I know for you that is anathema but it is true. I am grateful you have not had a drink for 2 years.

Have you read the entire Catechism?
 
So, to sum this up; alcoholism is not a disease, but I can’t prove it’s not.

Either God exists or He don’t.
Alcoholism is not a disease.👍…this is fact

You can’t prove that it is not? Why do you have to prove that something is not something that it is not.

Start with this. Medical Conditions that are diseases. What is the definition of a disease?

God exists and he gave us a mind, and a Church and grace and Virtues and gifts of theSpirit…amen
 
This is a pointless discussion. Let them talk to themselves. I don’t really care what they decide. I know my own and others’ experiences from the inside. To me, the disease model is just the best one that helps the most people to recover. So far. I’m not going to go any further with this.
RJ,

This is truly sad that what you believe is contrary to published data. The Medical model is 37/48 as it regards means to help people. Believe what you like but know the truth.

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
Why do I feel like I’m engaged with a debate with Protestants?

I hope you all are happy the Church has a guy with this much enthusiasm about AA as I do Christ’s Church.
Mgray,

I have the same opinion when trying to discuss why the Church has all you need with those that believe they need AA…they cling to the program, The Big Book and tales of success here and there…rather than the truth and fact.

I have this same experience with Protestants as I do with AA disciples.
 
Look my brother, I don’t really care what you think about alcoholism. But rather you like to admit it or not, you know there’s some folks out there that take a little too kindly to it. So much so, they’d give their own soul for it.

I’m one of those sinners that happened to make it out alive. And I know that God put me in AA to rinse me of my quarrels with alcohol…the same God of “my understanding” that led me home to the Catholic Church and put me right here tonight to talk to you about it. If it weren’t for God giving me AA, I can assure you this conversation would not be happening. You are experiencing a miracle reading this very text. Don’t believe me? Ask God.

I know you’re smart and intellectual. I know you can tell that I’m not an idiot. So I ask you kindly to consider AA or alcoholism as a serious thing. You’ve used a lot of sarcasm, and I’m cool with it. But see, it ain’t real funny to me because I’m here typing this out to you while one of our brothers or sisters is out there dying from what we’re talking about.

I help these people daily. It’s what I do. I know what I know. You don’t believe it…fine. Doesn’t affect my life. But I don’t have to answer to The Lord as to why I never helped a drunk or addict. Because he knows I have.

I really suggest you pray about this.

Christ be with you.
Mgray,

Where is it you contend that I inferred that Alcohol and Sin are not serious things?
 
Whether alcoholism is or is not a disease is a red herring in any discussion of problem and solution. Even if alcoholism were a classic, textbook disease, the alcoholic would still be responsible for everything s/he did under the influence. Therefore, alcoholism as “disease” is then relegated to alcoholism as “excuse”.

I acknowledge the phenomena of obsession and compulsion, and of craving, and I also don’t believe medicine or science truly knows what alcoholism is. At least, and answer to this question has not been authoritatively proffered, in my opinion. A medical doctor might wish to portray alcoholism as a disease so he can portray himself as a cure. This angle has been played ad nauseam by the recovery industry.

Not everybody believes in God or is willing to walk through the 12 steps and live their lives according to the values which develop as a byproduct of adopting the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA has a pretty poor “success” rate, at least insofar as the available data suggest. But it is possible to sober up while in AA and get oneself right with God, self and other human beings. I think far too many people balk at the possibility because they want to argue every small point and impress upon their groups their very tiresome “specialness”. That difference can very well kill them if they don’t get help somewhere.

Don’t get me wrong. I sobered up in AA, am very grateful for everything it taught me, and have been continuously sober for 28 1/2 years. It can work if people lay down their arms and try.
Silenced,

You hit on another problem with the disease model. If someone has a disease then it relieves them of responsibility. I have seen it and heard it.

Alcholism is habit. A bad habit. The Church says it is vice and if you read the AA 12 and 12 while discussing the character defects that they define as sin…there you will read about the 7 deadly sins…and guess what…Gluttony is one of them…excess and in Church lingo Alcoholism is a vice…and these sins can be overcome…and they can be overcome with or without AA…but they cannot be overcome without the grace of God, gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Virtues…and these are all the tools you need…

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
Lets say you’re right. Alcoholism is not a disease.

But it’s something. You and I both know that.

It’s something you and I don’t fully understand either.

But what I know that you don’t is…whatever IT is, I have it. And take it from me…you don’t want it.

I asked you if you thought the soul could become sick. You poked fun at my question. Without answering I’d like you to reconsider…Can the soul become sick?

I’d also suggest you listen to the audio of the lecture I mentioned and not read it online because its an hour long with a question and answer session at the end.

Christ be with you sir.
 
Lets say you’re right. Alcoholism is not a disease.

But it’s something. You and I both know that.

It’s something you and I don’t fully understand either.

But what I know that you don’t is…whatever IT is, I have it. And take it from me…you don’t want it.

I asked you if you thought the soul could become sick. You poked fun at my question. Without answering I’d like you to reconsider…Can the soul become sick?

I’d also suggest you listen to the audio of the lecture I mentioned and not read it online because its an hour long with a question and answer session at the end.

Christ be with you sir.
Mgray,

People drink. Some people drink a little. Some people drink lots.

You are corect I do not understand the people that drink lots. What I do understand is that I don’t have to understand this to understand that when someone wants to change habits how to do that. Understanding the why this happens has little to do with how to change the habit in my opinion.

Whatever you think you have as long as you think you have it and if you think you have it then you have it and it sounds like what you think you have you don’t want others to think they have.

I did not poke fun. I never saw a soul, cannot see a soul, sort of have an understanding of the Soul and the best I can offer is how Aqunas sees the Soul…found here…

psyking.net/id46.htm
SOUL AND ITS FACULTIES
The soul consists of faculties: the rational faculty, the sensitive faculty and the nutritive faculty.
The rational faculty is higher than the sensitive faculty and the sensitive faculty is higher than the nutritive faculty.
The rational faculty includes the active and passive intellect and the will. The sensitive faculty is the sensible body and has 5 exterior senses and 4 internal senses. The nutritive faculty includes the powers of nutrition, growth, and reproduction.
The interior sense pertains to operations at the level of sensitive life and to psychological functioning not involving reason. This sense includes estimative powers for animals and cognitive powers for humans. Animals are dependent on it because they can not reason. Humans us it through their instinctive estimating because they can reason. This sense in humans leads to imagination and sensory memory.
The senses also involve appetites or emotions. Aquinas indicates that the power of appetite is twofold and involves sensitive appetite at the sensitive level and volition or will at the rational level. Sensitive appetite desires objects that are sensed. The two major kinds of sensitive appetites are: 1) the concupiscible, because they desire the objects of sensible pleasure, and 2) the irascible, whose function is to urge a fight for the objects in questions when there are difficulties securing them. The concupiscible emotions include love, desire, joy, hatred, aversion, and sorrow. The irascible includes, hope, despair, courage, fear, and anger. Aquinas calls the act of a sensitive appetite a passion. (Watson & Evans, 1991, p.137).
Aquinas also attempted to describe free will. He says that it arises from freedom of the intellect. For him free choice is free judgment. Free will is evidenced in voluntary activities about which judgments are made. We desire happiness, which is found in the good, by our very nature, proceeding from the will. The desire comes from the will itself and is not imposed on us from without, as is the case of violence. Aquinas believes that we can not help desiring because we are the creatures that we are. In comparing intellect and will, Aquinas believes that will is subordinate and intellect is dominant.
According to Aquinas, sense experience provides the stimulus for setting into operation the "agens intellectus - the fact that human beings alone possess the power of abstraction. He believed that for any person possessing the ability for abstract thinking was an act of God. Therefore, the intellectual process resulting from abstraction becomes an aspect of revelation. Aquinas also believed, similar to John Locke, that prior to man having sensory experience the possible intellect is like a “tabula rasa,” a blank slate, devoid of ideas.
Can the faculties of the soul be disordered or “sick” yes…based on my understanding of the soul as seen above.

If I have time I shall listen to the lecture and questions and answers…will you tell me as well

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
Mgray,

People drink. Some people drink a little. Some people drink lots.

You are corect I do not understand the people that drink lots. What I do understand is that I don’t have to understand this to understand that when someone wants to change habits how to do that. Understanding the why this happens has little to do with how to change the habit in my opinion.

Whatever you think you have as long as you think you have it and if you think you have it then you have it and it sounds like what you think you have you don’t want others to think they have.

I did not poke fun. I never saw a soul, cannot see a soul, sort of have an understanding of the Soul and the best I can offer is how Aqunas sees the Soul…found here…

psyking.net/id46.htm

Can the faculties of the soul be disordered or “sick” yes…based on my understanding of the soul as seen above.

If I have time I shall listen to the lecture and questions and answers…will you tell me as well

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
The biggest lie the Devil ever told the world was that he didn’t exist.
 
The biggest lie the Devil ever told the world was that he didn’t exist.
Mgray,

I asked a simple question…

Have you read the Catechism in its entirerty and you respond with Satan. Can you answer a simple question? I have done my best to aid you in responding with truth and fact. Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
Virus,

Then AA is unecessary and any support group will do.👍
Of course. If I were to invent a support group that treats the spiritual malady as well as the physical addiction, then it would work and be fine.

It’s interesting that you’re so anti-AA. Why would I need to reinvent AA? Curious idea.

You seem to wrapped up in the language of disease or not, etc. Perhaps you’re just an unusually polite troll who likes to argue? Not sure.

But there is a simple fact that completely disarms what you are saying.

Huge numbers of alcoholics across the globe get and remain sober because of AA. It works - very, very well. It may not work for everyone, but what that really means in my experience is that not everyone is ready to give their will and lives over to the care of God (as they understand him). All of the folks I know who either didn’t get sober, or didn’t stay sober, have one thing in common. They either were never able to come to terms with their lack of real control over events in their lives, or they eventually thought they were “cured” and tried to start controlling everything again.

Some people can get and stay sober by just will. But those folks are probably not the garden variety alky.

Some people can get and stay sober purely through detox followed by intensive counseling. And maybe those numbers are as good or better than AA (I doubt it, but maybe).

What AA does, however, is fix both my behavioral problems and my spiritual problems.

Religion helps me develop my idea of God, my relationship with God.

AA helps me apply that relationship in my daily life in a very practical and healthy way.

You’d go broke trying to get a counselor to give you what AA provides for $1 a meeting (and only if you CHOOSE to give that $1).
 
You are corect I do not understand the people that drink lots. What I do understand is that I don’t have to understand this to understand that when someone wants to change habits how to do that. Understanding the why this happens has little to do with how to change the habit in my opinion.
The fallacy in your argument is the faulty assumption that we’re discussing a habit.

Obsessions are not habits.

Even if you do not buy the “allergy” idea - some sort of chemical hook that makes a person’s reaction alcohol physiologically different between people - you would be mistaken (gravely so) if you think that a man drinking himself literally to death is simply unable to break a bad habit. It’s a mental obsession that requires a two pronged solution - abstinence tied with spiritual balance. Because (for whatever reason) alcoholics cannot take that first drink without grave consequences (if left to their own devices.)
 
Coptic Christian says: “You are corect I do not understand the people that drink lots. What I do understand is that I don’t have to understand this to understand that when someone wants to change habits how to do that. Understanding the why this happens has little to do with how to change the habit in my opinion.”

This quote indicates to me that Coptic Christian has never experienced addiction. Addicts don’t often want to change habits, they want to keep right on doing what they’re doing at the expense of everyone and everything around them. Is this a habit? Bad behavior? Willful misconduct? Or are they physiologically driven by euphoric recall or fear of physical pain and mental anguish? Addiction is a complex condition. I don’t know that I would call it a disease, but neither would I dismiss it as a habit.

Understanding the mechanics of addiction is key to changing the “habit”. No drunk, no junkie, has an on/off switch. Adding insult to injury is the fact that many young people who are engaging in typical, age-appropriate experimental drinking, are being labeled as alcoholics by their parents or friends and shoved into treatment centers where often there are no professionals on board. If they weren’t drunks when they went in they might be inspired to get drunk and stay drunk as soon as they get out.

This is not a simple problem, and it is being made worse by the recovery industry and the fact that we just do not know the most effective way to treat the alcoholic. There are treatment methodologies other than AA, but it is difficult to find meetings or practitioners in most towns across the U.S. Also, they have not been on the scene as long as AA and their statistics and self-evaluations are green. I maintain that it is impossible to measure success of AA or any other treatment method because alcoholics lie, manipulate, exaggerate. And there is always an agenda on the other end of the survey - nobody really knows how successful AA or any of the others might be. When I was treated in 1984 I was told that out of 1,000 people, 100 are alcoholic. 97% were the working stiff variety, and that 3-4 went to AA and only 2-3 remained sober. It’s just more complicated than it looks to the casual observer.
 
The fallacy in your argument is the faulty assumption that we’re discussing a habit.

Obsessions are not habits.

Even if you do not buy the “allergy” idea - some sort of chemical hook that makes a person’s reaction alcohol physiologically different between people - you would be mistaken (gravely so) if you think that a man drinking himself literally to death is simply unable to break a bad habit. It’s a mental obsession that requires a two pronged solution - abstinence tied with spiritual balance. Because (for whatever reason) alcoholics cannot take that first drink without grave consequences (if left to their own devices.)
👍

This is basically what I believe about alcoholism.

It is part compulsion, part addiction (some people seem to be more susceptible than others), part bad habit (one can become an alcoholic-type drinker if conditions are right). It destroys lives - the alcoholic’s life and the people around him/her who are trying to control the compulsion and mop up the mess created by the alcoholic.

Alcoholics sometimes try for years, even decades, to stop or control their drinking. Like Bill W., they think if they can just do this or that, they will be able to break their compulsion, but it doesn’t work. They feel helpless and that drives them back to the alcohol. For whatever reason, admitting they are powerless in their efforts to stop drinking is a relief within their obsessed minds. It may be the first time they have heard THE TRUTH in a very long time. They truly do not know how to stop drinking, and everything they have tried, does not work, or does not work for long. They are disheartened, discouraged, and in despair. All the things they do while drinking are causing so many problems, yet they still crave that drink. And the next one, and the next. When they are sober, they regret what they do, and yet…the drink lures them back, time and time again.

The 12 steps are one plan for an alcoholic to get his/her life back on track, once the decision is made to stop drinking once and for all. But that decision can be so difficult, that the mind of an alcoholic can only face it one day at a time. It is overwhelming to think, “I can NEVER drink again.” It is not as overwhelming to think, “Right now, I am not going to drink.” And moment by moment, the “right nows” add up, and pretty soon the alcoholic can face the rest of the steps and cleaning up his life.

I don’t understand people who are so critical of AA. It helps many people quit drinking and stay sober. The 12 Steps help other addictions as well. They are quite Catholic in nature - the 4th Step (Made a searching and fearless inventory of ourselves) is an examination of conscience and the 5th Step (Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs) is confession (although since everyone is not Catholic, it’s permitted to confess to a trusted person such as a sponsor). Many Catholics will go ahead and do their 5th Step with a priest.

Sure, AA is “spiritual” and not religious. That way, even atheists can use the Steps with success. A lot of alcoholics and their families have had very negative experiences with God, with churches or organized religion. If AA or Al-Anon were a religious program, they’d have no options. Sure, some people come into an AA meeting angry at God for not keeping them from drinking. That’s OK. They can call God whatever they want. Those of us who know Him better are OK with that. I hear in Al-Anon meetings, “I had to find another God,” than the God of their childhood whom they interpret to be judging, condemning, etc. Well, it was always their own misunderstanding of who God is, but I just turn that over to God to sort out.

What thinking of alcoholism as a disease accomplishes is taking the responsibility for fixing them OFF of the shoulders of the people who loved them. The slogan is “I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it, and I can’t cure it.” The alcoholic must be the one who seeks and maintains his/her own sobriety, rather like how someone with diabetes must change their diet, control their blood sugars, and take care of themselves. Or someone with a known heart condition must cooperate with their doctors’ recommendations. Yet, the alcoholic can think of his problem as something he is not in total control of, because the reality is, he is not. The mental image I like to think of is someone dancing with a bear. Maybe AA turns the bear into a teddy bear, but you can’t just walk away when the bear’s claws are in your back.

I do know of people who have stopped drinking without any other support. So yes, it can be done. But those people are the exception and not the rule. Drinking is an isolating action to begin with, so breaking the isolation is itself very helpful, for the alcoholic and for their families and friends. Just knowing that you are NOT alone, that others have been where you are, and have made it out the other side, and lived to tell the tale (and with a great sense of humor!) gives one a great deal of hope.

I am very curious to know what CopticChristian would offer alcoholics and their families instead of AA. Would he give every alcoholic a copy of the Catechism? What does he suggest, especially considering most people cannot possibly afford one of the fancy detox centers? Extensive therapy? Weekly meetings with a priest? Daily Mass? Then what about the people who are Protestants, or Jews, or Satanists? Do they not deserve sobriety because they are not Catholic? What exactly would CopticChristian suggest that an alcoholic do, on a daily basis, to get and stay sober?
 
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