AA

[CopticChristian]

Thats a straw man fallacy right there…

Right, and so when you eat wheat do you black out, drive around intoxicated, beg people for money because you need more money to buy wheat, and completely wreck your family and home life?

Mgray,

The Catechism is available on Audio, the USA Catechsim. It is about 42 bucks. I have listened to it while driving and after about the 6th tour I am discovering more and more. It is filled with stories of Saints I never heard of. As I see you are in RCIA this would be a bonus for you. If you learn the Catechism as well as you learned the big book, I will be calling you asking for help on apologetics.

Your understanding of disease and faux-disease of alcoholism is what causes your mind to react to Maryj. If you can recognize that drinking and any other addiction is not disease then your comments become none.

I ask you to rethink your notion of disease. You don’t have an allergy to alcohol because if you did you would, as Maryj indicated avoid the poison.

oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-alcohol/alcohol-allergies-do-they-exist/

Alcohol Allergies Do they Exist?

Often a true alcohol allergy is termed alcohol intolerance and not an allergy. Although research is limited, people with a true allergy to alcohol should avoid drinking.

So, correct your thinking in terms of allergy. You have no allergy to alcohol. You talked about tolerance and I explained it.

You have a problem with imbibing a substance you know is bad for you and your liver responds with tachyphylaxis which means you need to drink more to get the same effects and when you do the side effects cloud your mind in making decisions that you continually drink never reaching the goal of the effect you seek…

Maryj cannot eat wheat. She does not eat wheat for an effect. Wheat is a nutrient. She has a real disease that she manages by avoiding things that make her sick because she is interested in getting health.

Recognizing the need for health is a value that motivates change for those with addiction.

Renew your mind. It is no mystery. This is what tolerance is.

tachyphylaxis
[tak′ēfəlak′sis]
Etymology: Gk, tachys + phylax, guard
1 (in pharmacology) a phenomenon in which the repeated administration of some drugs results in a rapidly appearing and marked decrease in effectiveness.

I am not a fan of Wikipedia but it will do for a quick look

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_tolerance

So, while you wander this earth telling people that you know it is a disease based on the mystery of tolerance know that there is an answer to this mystery…you don’t have to go up in the sky, to the depths, it is near…on your lips and in your heart all you have to do is Say Jesus is Lord and Tachyphylaxis…and all mystery becomes as nothing…

 

[CopticChristian]

Your avatar is very suitable for you Coptic. (And that is of course, playful humor)

Mgray,

Thank you. It is a gentle reminder that regardless of what I think of myself…in God’s eyes I am probably as bright as he looks.

 

[maryjk]

Thats a straw man fallacy right there…

Right, and so when you eat wheat do you black out, drive around intoxicated, beg people for money because you need more money to buy wheat, and completely wreck your family and home life?

But it is a disease, right? Then treat it as such.

I do AA. I have a normal life. **I love it and don’t care what you think. **

God bless AA and the people in it. And God bless those that simply don’t understand it.

Which is really your point. It isn’t that we are closed minded or that we have never met/lived with anyone that lives with the sin of drunkenness. It is that you like AA and believe it in. And you think everyone around you needs to believe in it too.

 

[CopticChristian]

I do AA. I have a normal life. I love it and don’t care what you think.

God bless AA and the people in it. And God bless those that simply don’t understand it.

Mgray,

Love what you love. Like what you like. I do care what people think.

As we think, so we believe, as we believe so we act. To correct any action you have to know how people think. In my later years I am devoted to understanding how we think and how to help others understand how we think. In the end it is an understanding of what it is our minds were created for by our creator. To understand this is to understand creation.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

The Catechism is available on Audio, the USA Catechsim. It is about 42 bucks. I have listened to it while driving and after about the 6th tour I am discovering more and more. It is filled with stories of Saints I never heard of. As I see you are in RCIA this would be a bonus for you. If you learn the Catechism as well as you learned the big book, I will be calling you asking for help on apologetics.

Your understanding of disease and faux-disease of alcoholism is what causes your mind to react to Maryj. If you can recognize that drinking and any other addiction is not disease then your comments become none.

I ask you to rethink your notion of disease. You don’t have an allergy to alcohol because if you did you would, as Maryj indicated avoid the poison.

oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-alcohol/alcohol-allergies-do-they-exist/

Alcohol Allergies Do they Exist?

So, correct your thinking in terms of allergy. You have no allergy to alcohol. You talked about tolerance and I explained it.

You have a problem with imbibing a substance you know is bad for you and your liver responds with tachyphulaxis which means you need to drink more to get the same effects and when you do the side effects cloud your mind in making decisions that you continually drink never reaching the goal of the effect you seek…

Maryj cannot eat wheat. She does not eat wheat for an effect. Wheat is a nutrient. She has a real disease that she manages by avoiding things that make her sick because she is interested in getting health.

Recognizing the need for health is a value that motivates change for those with addiction.

I love the Catechism and you can bet, soon I will have read it all (whilst I’m simultaneously reading Selected Readings of Tomas Aquinas). This also while reading the entirety of the Bible including the Deuterocanonical books in which I’ve never read before. (Protestant of 29 years before coming Home)

I’ve read the Big Book completely 4 different times.

I appreciate the suggestion and will consider purchasing an audio version of the CCC.

I’m also happy that for once you acknowledge me as being intelligent and not some idiot…

However!

I think what cause me to respond to Maryj was not my understanding of the disease, but my fingers on the keyboard, then clicking submit

 

[VirtusTransitus]

Last post on this.

I know many physicians. None of them would be on a message board telling alcoholics who are sober to stop doing what’s working simply because their own egos are at stake.

Any one reading this who is (or thinks they might be) an alcoholic: do your research, get many opinions. There is not only one way to get sober and get your life back. But many of us have had great success in AA. Not just with chemical sobriety, but with total sobriety.

CC - God Bless. Do no harm.

 

[Mgray82]

But it is a disease, right? Then treat it as such.

Which is really your point. It isn’t that we are closed minded or that we have never met/lived with anyone that lives with the sin of drunkenness. It is that you like AA and believe it in. And you think everyone around you needs to believe in it too.

If I may, I’m actually dual addicted…I made a reference to cocaine earlier in this post…so my sin would not include drunkeness in regards to cocaine. Obviously, the bible doesn’t speak explicitly on the substance cocaine or any other drug as it does “wine” or “strong drink”. But we all know what the bible teaches about it…so that’s besides the point…

I have never said you are closed minded…re-read this whole thread! Nor did I ever say everyone around me should believe in it…stop putting words in my mouth!

I’m just arguing my points and defending what I believe…Coptic mentioned apologetics. Isn’t that what we’re doing here? Debating? Regardless what you or I think, neither of us are going to walk away a “winner” or changed in thought or belief in anyway.

But you certainly will know why I believe it.

 

[CopticChristian]

I love the Catechism and you can bet, soon I will have read it all (whilst I’m simultaneously reading Selected Readings of Tomas Aquinas). This also while reading the entirety of the Bible including the Deuterocanonical books in which I’ve never read before. (Protestant of 29 years before coming Home)

I’ve read the Big Book completely 4 different times.

I appreciate the suggestion and will consider purchasing an audio version of the CCC.

I’m also happy that for once you acknowledge me as being intelligent and not some idiot…

However!

I think what cause me to respond to Maryj was not my understanding of the disease, but my fingers on the keyboard, then clicking submit

Mgray,

You suffer. You suffer dearly. You suffer to the extent that it would cause me and others to feel pity.

however

You suffer from the same malady I suffer from in the human condition we live in.

Understand that I see no where in any post that I suggested you are an idiot. Go back and read my responses to you. Would I address an idiot with ideas that an idiot would not understand. I explained Tolerance for you and other things you can glean from posts. Do you believe that if I believed that you were an idiot I would take the time to explain anything to you?

Note that when you write and when you talk…

however, but, alas…

negates everything that precedes what you say and by way of example I provided you a response that shows you exactly what I mean. Here is a suggestion. Think through what you want to say before you put words to posting/paper/speaking…and if you think however/but/alas…rethink it because what you will say will not be positive. I suggest avoiding these words in communication.

I love you but…

I am without sin in my walk however

get it…

I also suggest you think about using your mind to create your world…stop thinking I will stay sober today…

Wake up and imagine you are drink free until noon, at noon, imagine you are drink free until evening etc…when you do this your mind responds to positive (name removed by moderator)ut to the subconscious so that as you imagine what it is you are doing, then you will be doing that…in time you can wake up and imagine that your day is drink free, full of health, so

not I will
I am

So tell me about the character defects.

 

[estesbob]

To the OP-hopefully you are still around after your thread was hijacked-in answer to your original question this might help:

12-step-review.org/

 

[maryjk]

I’m just arguing my points and defending what I believe…Coptic mentioned apologetics.** Isn’t that what we’re doing here? **Debating? Regardless what you or I think, neither of us are going to walk away a “winner” or changed in thought or belief in anyway.

But you certainly will know why I believe it.

Actually, I was answering the OP. Remember him???

Is the twelve steps of AA something good and has it helped you in you Catholicism?

My first post was in direct response to that post.

And my answer was, no it didn’t help anyone I know in their Catholicism. In fact, it wasn’t until the people I know, left AA (and Al-Anon) did they grow in their Catholicism.

Many others here have quoted studies showing that there are many other, better ways to address drunkenness or “alcoholism.”

That is what I am discussing. What about you?

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

You suffer. You suffer dearly. You suffer to the extent that it would cause me and others to feel pity.

however

You suffer from the same malady I suffer from in the human condition we live in.

Understand that I see no where in any post that I suggested you are an idiot. Go back and read my responses to you. Would I address an idiot with ideas that an idiot would not understand. I explained Tolerance for you and other things you can glean from posts. Do you believe that if I believed that you were an idiot I would take the time to explain anything to you?

Note that when you write and when you talk…

however, but, alas…

negates everything that precedes what you say and by way of example I provided you a response that shows you exactly what I mean. Here is a suggestion. Think through what you want to say before you put words to posting/paper/speaking…and if you think however/but/alas…rethink it because what you will say will not be positive. I suggest avoiding these words in communication.

I love you but…

I am without sin in my walk however

get it…

I also suggest you think about using your mind to create your world…stop thinking I will stay sober today…

Wake up and imagine you are drink free until noon, at noon, imagine you are drink free until evening etc…when you do this your mind responds to positive (name removed by moderator)ut to the subconscious so that as you imagine what it is you are doing, then you will be doing that…in time you can wake up and imagine that your day is drink free, full of health, so

not I will
I am

So tell me about the character defects.

See, here’s what you don’t get. I can’t say I’ll be sober tomorrow as I don’t know if I’ll make it there.

Do you know if you will be alive tomorrow my friend?

That was the point to that whole “I’m sober, but I don’t know about tomorrow” thing.

I rethink and recheck before I post. I think of (I think it’s Mark 7 and I’m paraphrasing), “it’s not what comes out of a person that defiles them”.

I know and believe what I’m typing here.

It’s 12:21 here in Ohio…pretty sure I’ll be sober til midnight. Don’t know if I’ll be alive though. God’s will be done, not mine.

What about character defects?

 

[CopticChristian]

To the OP-hopefully you are still around after your thread was hijacked-in answer to your original question this might help:

12-step-review.org/

Est,

The OP says…

Is the twelve steps of AA something good and has it helped you in you catholicism?

This thread is not hijacked. It may not be going where you want it to go. This is the CAF and I see that my evaluation of the 12 steps as good/no good and others is right on.

I have addressed and other’s have addressed Catholicism and when I get a response to character defects I will continue to do so.

You want to promote AA and you only handle one arm of the OP.

 

[CopticChristian]

See, here’s what you don’t get. I can’t say I’ll be sober tomorrow as I don’t know if I’ll make it there.

Do you know if you will be alive tomorrow my friend?

That was the point to that whole “I’m sober, but I don’t know about tomorrow” thing.

I rethink and recheck before I post. I think of (I think it’s Mark 7 and I’m paraphrasing), “it’s not what comes out of a person that defiles them”.

I know and believe what I’m typing here.

It’s 12:21 here in Ohio…pretty sure I’ll be sober til midnight. Don’t know if I’ll be alive though. God’s will be done, not mine.

What about character defects?

Mgray,

You suffer from distortion and generalization. Show me where I suggested anything about tomorrow.

I said…Imagine right now…not tomorrow…right now…I am drink free and healthy at noon…that is only a few hours away…or if it is noon…I am drink free now and healthy at dinner…show me where I indicated tomorrow.

What is your understanding of Character defects and why they are important.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

See, here’s what you don’t get. I can’t say I’ll be sober tomorrow as I don’t know if I’ll make it there.

Do you know if you will be alive tomorrow my friend?

That was the point to that whole “I’m sober, but I don’t know about tomorrow” thing.

I rethink and recheck before I post. I think of (I think it’s Mark 7 and I’m paraphrasing), “it’s not what comes out of a person that defiles them”.

I know and believe what I’m typing here.

It’s 12:21 here in Ohio…pretty sure I’ll be sober til midnight. Don’t know if I’ll be alive though. God’s will be done, not mine.

What about character defects?

Well…

AA makes a mistake in talking peole into this mindset. They call it ‘defects of character’. I think that is wrong. Our characters do take some damage and are affected in a negative way, but our own choices cause the defect. The defects are not innate.

 

[Mgray82]

To the OP-hopefully you are still around after your thread was hijacked-in answer to your original question this might help:

12-step-review.org/

AA is a “simple program for complicated people”.

Coptic and Maryj would have to agree here as they’ve completely complicated this thread.

You either go to AA or you do something else, that’s all there is to it. The “theology” or “medical science” (which most drunks could care less about) really is irrelevant to the outcome of the program; to get sober.

 

[Mgray82]

Well…

AA makes a mistake in talking peole into this mindset. They call it ‘defects of character’. I think that is wrong. Our characters do take some damage and are affected in a negative way, but our own choices cause the defect. The defects are not innate.

Didn’t make a mistake talking me into it.

Call it “sins”…same outcome.

I agree.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

You suffer from distortion and generalization. Show me where I suggested anything about tomorrow.

I said…Imagine right now…not tomorrow…right now…I am drink free and healthy at noon…that is only a few hours away…or if it is noon…I am drink free now and healthy at dinner…show me where I indicated tomorrow.

What is your understanding of Character defects and why they are important.

I made my point.

And to answer your question;

Sins

 

[Mgray82]

Just re-read a post I made. I need to make a correction;

“there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.” - Mark 7:15

I misquoted completely, forgive me for I am a fallible human being.

 

[estesbob]

AA is a “simple program for complicated people”.

Coptic and Maryj would have to agree here as they’ve completely complicated this thread.

You either go to AA or you do something else, that’s all there is to it. The “theology” or “medical science” (which most drunks could care less about) really is irrelevant to the outcome of the program; to get sober.

I have been sober for 28 years. AA got me here. i found over the years it is useless to argue with those who are either not alcoholics and or have never attended AA.

 

[CopticChristian]

I made my point.

And to answer your question;

Sins

Mgray,

Character defects are sins.

Does the big book in any way or anywhere say this?

How did you come to understand that your character defects are sin?