AA

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Mgray82 said:
Don’t recall reading in the Big Book “only other drunks can help you get sober”. Could you point me to the page?

Let me ask you, what’s your remedy to stop an alcoholic from drinking? Prescribing them Antabuse?

My solution is getting and staying sober one day at a time.

**Only God can get me sober if I cooperate with the grace that he gives me. **Nobody else can, not even my own “will power”. Let’s establish that.

I go to AA to help myself. In return I help others. It’s a selfish program, take it or leave it.

Here’s a lupus support group;

lupus.org/webmodules/webarticlesnet/templates/new_researchbasic.aspx?articleid=864&zoneid=32

I’m sorry to know you have lupus. And know, you’re in my prayers.

I won’t go further with proof of alcoholism as a disease until you’ve answered the scenario I proposed a few posts back.

I have a disease. Don’t care if you believe it or not. You don’t affect my life or sobriety. And I’ll say this; I pray you or anyone in your family never has to experience what I went through out there in the depths of hell…you see, I prayed for death…it would have been easier. Glory to God for walking me through the doors of Alcoholics Anonymous. Adhere to what I’m telling you, rather you believe this is a disease, sin, a malady, a bad habit…it’ll rip your life apart. Calling it a disease is putting a candy wrapper on it. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy…

…I’ll end with that…
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Mgray,

I agree with that statement…based on the deposit of Faith in the Cathechism concerning grace…where do you have access to grace in the meetings of AA that you cannot find in the Sacraments or other sources of grace based on your Faith…?

Alcoholism is not now or ever been a disease in reality.
 
Pythons said:
I have known multiple people who went through ( some still practice AA ) and in every case…
…The people involved entered into a “cult like state” where they slashed contact with family members.
…Even family members who didn’t drink.

Two of my co-workers spent years in AA and they did stop drinking but one of the primary reasons they kept attending was all the sex…
…AA is big on that and it’s pretty much a given that THAT’s what you will be doing there in addition to the drinking problem.

I watched this group esentially destroy my Sisters life, true, she did cease drinking but the cost for her mental well being was horrific…
…I’ve known several people who went through “Shick Shadel” and in all those cases IT WORKED without the cultic stuff.
…In a fraction of the time I might add.

I know AA has worked for some people but from my experience it’s an absolute CULT…
…Better to buck up and pay the money and get into Shick Shadel and fix the problem.
…Then get involved with a “spiritual counselor” of AA that tells you when you can and can’t talk to family members who don’t even DRINK!

The fact is that the “Church of Scientology” has thousands upon thousands of people off booze and other drugs…
…But look at the cost - any cult can do this sort of thing.

Sorry for those that love AA and had a good experience with it - from my 1st hand experience it’s a cult, flat out…
…And if you go there married expect that you WILL CHEAT on your significant other.
…And have some spiritual guru telling you who you can and can’t talk to ( for your own good of course ).
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Pythons,

Good information…Shick Shadel actually incorporates the stuff that works based on the work of Reed Hester…another good resource other than the 12 step programs offered to most. Now I can include St. Jude, St. Gregory and Shick Shadel in my collection of alternative programs…thanx…
In the Handbook of Alcoholism Treatment Approaches - Effective Alternatives, “What Works? A Methodological Analysis”, Hester and Miller (1999) compared thirty types of therapy for alcohol/drug treatment based on a cumulative evidence score from the number of both positive and negative studies, a mean quality score for modality, and a mean severity score for modality.
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The top six treatment approaches identified by Hester and Miller are listed below. Schick Shadel Hospital incorporates various aspects of all of these treatment approaches in its multimodality treatment program.
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Community reinforcement in its aftercare planning and counseling sessions, and during its reinforcement sessions.

Motivational enhancement during outreach sessions or during interventions.

Social skills training needs are addressed via the continuing care planning process if identified during the course of treatment.

Behavioral contracting is used at Schick Shadel Hospital in cases of suicidal ideation or to assist in behavioral change when a patient’s actions are interfering with a positive treatment outcome. We have observed, during light sedation therapy, the benefits of reinforcing the positive affirmations our patients have selected. This is a proven positive experience for patients, and may be more effective in behavioral change than behavioral contracting.

Brief interventions are the most researched modality. Counter Conditioning used by Schick Shadel Hospital can be classified as a brief therapy. Cooper, in “Brief Therapy in Clinical Psychology” (Cullari, Foundations of Clinical Psychology, 1998), quotes three definitions of Brief Therapy:

In this work by Hester…AA/12 steps ranks 37 when compared to the above

This can be found at their website here…

schickshadel.com/treatment-research/

A summary of Hesters book on what works can be found here…

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm
 
maryjk said:
No longer have a Big Book in my house. Didn’t have a use for it. See, you are back to “it is a disease.” Which means they need to see a doctor, right? AA seems want to have it both ways. It is a disease, but it is a disease that isn’t treated like one. They need to make up their mind. If it is a disease, then people need to seek treatment from a doctor, like they would for any other disease.If that works for you, great. I am sure if you have family they are very grateful that you are not drinking.A support group is great, but I wouldn’t go to a support group for treatment. I go to a doctor for treatment. A support group is for support.For your scenario? There isn’t a difference. AA doesn’t believe in labeling someone. You aren’t an alcoholic until you say you are, so neither are an alcoholic until they say they are and that they want help. (Another “is it a disease or isn’t it” problem with AA.)

That said, you can create any scenario you want to get whatever answers you want.
I am sorry you went through that. I am glad when you found a way out it didn’t hurt your relationship with God or the Church. Some people do leave the Church, choosing a higher power that isn’t God.
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People leave the church for all kinds of reasons. Which I’m not condoning…you know as well as I do it’s because they either weren’t properly catechized or they had no faith to begin with. Don’t give me that garbage.

Funny, I got sober through AA and now I’m in RCIA…go figure.

If it weren’t for God giving me AA, your Church wouldn’t be obtaining this new member. I’d probably be dead.
 
Pythons said:
I have known multiple people who went through ( some still practice AA ) and in every case…
…The people involved entered into a “cult like state” where they slashed contact with family members.
…Even family members who didn’t drink.

Two of my co-workers spent years in AA and they did stop drinking but one of the primary reasons they kept attending was all the sex…
…AA is big on that and it’s pretty much a given that THAT’s what you will be doing there in addition to the drinking problem.

I watched this group esentially destroy my Sisters life, true, she did cease drinking but the cost for her mental well being was horrific…
…I’ve known several people who went through “Shick Shadel” and in all those cases IT WORKED without the cultic stuff.
…In a fraction of the time I might add.

I know AA has worked for some people but from my experience it’s an absolute CULT…
…Better to buck up and pay the money and get into Shick Shadel and fix the problem.
…Then get involved with a “spiritual counselor” of AA that tells you when you can and can’t talk to family members who don’t even DRINK!

The fact is that the “Church of Scientology” has thousands upon thousands of people off booze and other drugs…
…But look at the cost - any cult can do this sort of thing.

Sorry for those that love AA and had a good experience with it - from my 1st hand experience it’s a cult, flat out…
…And if you go there married expect that you WILL CHEAT on your significant other.
…And have some spiritual guru telling you who you can and can’t talk to ( for your own good of course ).
Click to expand...
I just proposed to my girlfriend. This is an absolute insult and I’m utterly disgusted to read this.

These are the type of people we want out evangelizing?

Maybe that voice I hear in my mind really is God telling me “Come home. The Church needs you”.
 
Mgray82 said:
People leave the church for all kinds of reasons. Which I’m not condoning…you know as well as I do it’s because they either weren’t properly catechized or they had no faith to begin with. Don’t give me that garbage.

Funny, I got sober through AA and now I’m in RCIA…go figure.

If it weren’t for God giving me AA, your Church wouldn’t be obtaining this new member. I’d probably be dead.
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Mgray,

Some people get saved at Calvary Chapel and then go to RCIA

Some people get sober when they get saved at Calvary Chapel and then go to RCIA

go figure…
 
Mgray82 said:
Can the soul get sick…yes or no?
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Mgray,

Define Sickness?

What is the soul? Is it something that can acquire physical illness?

Concerning the 12 step/AA religion/disease model paradigm…you can read Soul Surgery here…

findpdf.net/reader/SOUL-SURGERY.html

A classic in the AA library…guess they think you do surgery on a soul:bigyikes:

Were you going to squash my denial that Alcholism is a disease…
🍿
 
CopticChristian said:
Mgray,

Define Sickness?

What is the soul? Is it something that can acquire physical illness?

Concerning the 12 step/AA religion/disease model paradigm…you can read Soul Surgery here…

findpdf.net/reader/SOUL-SURGERY.html

A classic in the AA library…guess they think you do surgery on a soul:bigyikes:

Were you going to squash my denial that Alcholism is a disease…
🍿
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Your obviously not familiar with Peter Kreeft…
 
Mgray82 said:
I just proposed to my girlfriend. This is an absolute insult and I’m utterly disgusted to read this.

These are the type of people we want out evangelizing?

Maybe that voice I hear in my mind really is God telling me “Come home. The Church needs you”.
Click to expand...
M,

Lighten up…this is probably because of the stance the Big Book takes on adultery…something I found very disheartening…BE HONEST…TELL THE TRUTH…confess your sins, except ADULTERY…HUH>>>

sharonohara.com/article11.html
It’s interesting to take a historical look at how the founders of AA handled this question. In the AA Big Book, much emphasis is laid on the importance of honesty: "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has the capacity to be honest," it says right at the beginning of Chapter Four entitled “How It Works.” However, when it comes to the question of making amends, the founders emphasized caution, suggesting in Step Nine that it is a good idea to make direct amends "except when do to so would injure themselves or others."
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I believe that this was the Achilles heel in the 12 step religion of AA that I found inconsistent with Catholic teaching…HIDE your ADULTERY…:eek:
 
Pythons said:
I have known multiple people who went through ( some still practice AA ) and in every case…
…The people involved entered into a “cult like state” where they slashed contact with family members.
…Even family members who didn’t drink.

Two of my co-workers spent years in AA and they did stop drinking but one of the primary reasons they kept attending was all the sex…
…AA is big on that and it’s pretty much a given that THAT’s what you will be doing there in addition to the drinking problem.

I watched this group esentially destroy my Sisters life, true, she did cease drinking but the cost for her mental well being was horrific…
…I’ve known several people who went through “Shick Shadel” and in all those cases IT WORKED without the cultic stuff.
…In a fraction of the time I might add.

I know AA has worked for some people but from my experience it’s an absolute CULT…
…Better to buck up and pay the money and get into Shick Shadel and fix the problem.
…Then get involved with a “spiritual counselor” of AA that tells you when you can and can’t talk to family members who don’t even DRINK!

The fact is that the “Church of Scientology” has thousands upon thousands of people off booze and other drugs…
…But look at the cost - any cult can do this sort of thing.

Sorry for those that love AA and had a good experience with it - from my 1st hand experience it’s a cult, flat out…
…And if you go there married expect that you WILL CHEAT on your significant other.
…And have some spiritual guru telling you who you can and can’t talk to ( for your own good of course ).
Click to expand...
Wow.

You are seriously misguided.

Lots of folks don’t get sober in AA. Just like lots of folks don’t get sober going to therapy.

But AA is most certainly not a cult.

I’ve been to AA meetings in many different states and cities and have never walked out of a meeting thinking it was a hookup scene or a cult.

I’m sorry you have such a bad perception of such a very good program.
 
VirtusTransitus said:
Wow.

You are seriously misguided.

Lots of folks don’t get sober in AA. Just like lots of folks don’t get sober going to therapy.

But AA is most certainly not a cult.

I’ve been to AA meetings in many different states and cities and have never walked out of a meeting thinking it was a hookup scene or a cult.

I’m sorry you have such a bad perception of such a very good program.
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Which brings to mind, I wonder what the church thinks about us Cult members going to Mass every Sunday. Lord knows there’s no Catholics in AA.
 
CopticChristian said:
M,

Lighten up…this is probably because of the stance the Big Book takes on adultery…something I found very disheartening…BE HONEST…TELL THE TRUTH…confess your sins, except ADULTERY…HUH>>>

sharonohara.com/article11.html

I believe that this was the Achilles heel in the 12 step religion of AA that I found inconsistent with Catholic teaching…HIDE your ADULTERY…:eek:
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I can take your sarcasm. But you’re bashing my program. I’ve got to be defensive in good charity.
 
CopticChristian said:
M,

Lighten up…this is probably because of the stance the Big Book takes on adultery…something I found very disheartening…BE HONEST…TELL THE TRUTH…confess your sins, except ADULTERY…HUH>>>

sharonohara.com/article11.html

I believe that this was the Achilles heel in the 12 step religion of AA that I found inconsistent with Catholic teaching…HIDE your ADULTERY…:eek:
Click to expand...
The Big Book certainly does NOT encourage people to hide adultery. Poor sponsorship might lead someone to make a serious mistake. But that’s different.

That part of the steps is meant to keep folks from unnecessarily causing pain - mostly to others - in some momentary zeal of working through the steps.

Furthermore, the steps are not a one and done deal. You’ll go through the steps many times and make amends over time as situations change.

Adulterers are NOT encouraged to hide their adultery. They are driven towards honesty. Good sponsorship would drive a person to first stop living in sin; second make things right with their spouse as soon as possible, regardless of how the marriage ends up.

I’m sure there are bad meetings out there where some of this garbage is being spewed. In those meetings, you won’t find any good sobriety. In meetings with solid sobriety, you won’t even sniff any of that garbage. There are FAR, FAR more solid AA groups than those you are describing here.
 
CopticChristian said:
Mgray,

What does Peter Kreeft have to do with AA? I know he is a convert. Does he support AA?
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I don’t know that he supports AA. But he proposes philosophical evidence that the soul can become sick…kinda like the “spiritual malady” AA talks about.

Now, you don’t have to believe Mr. Kreeft’s argument. But having lived with a “soul sickness”, I sure do…

May I suggest listening to a lecture he gave at the Institute for the Psychological Sciences…
 
VirtusTransitus said:
The Big Book certainly does NOT encourage people to hide adultery. Poor sponsorship might lead someone to make a serious mistake. But that’s different.

That part of the steps is meant to keep folks from unnecessarily causing pain - mostly to others - in some momentary zeal of working through the steps.

Furthermore, the steps are not a one and done deal. You’ll go through the steps many times and make amends over time as situations change.

Adulterers are NOT encouraged to hide their adultery. They are driven towards honesty. Good sponsorship would drive a person to first stop living in sin; second make things right with their spouse as soon as possible, regardless of how the marriage ends up.

I’m sure there are bad meetings out there where some of this garbage is being spewed. In those meetings, you won’t find any good sobriety. In meetings with solid sobriety, you won’t even sniff any of that garbage. There are FAR, FAR more solid AA groups than those you are describing here.
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You’re wasting your time with this bunch…
 
VirtusTransitus said:
The Big Book certainly does NOT encourage people to hide adultery. Poor sponsorship might lead someone to make a serious mistake. But that’s different.

That part of the steps is meant to keep folks from unnecessarily causing pain - mostly to others - in some momentary zeal of working through the steps.

Furthermore, the steps are not a one and done deal. You’ll go through the steps many times and make amends over time as situations change.

Adulterers are NOT encouraged to hide their adultery. They are driven towards honesty. Good sponsorship would drive a person to first stop living in sin; second make things right with their spouse as soon as possible, regardless of how the marriage ends up.

I’m sure there are bad meetings out there where some of this garbage is being spewed. In those meetings, you won’t find any good sobriety. In meetings with solid sobriety, you won’t even sniff any of that garbage. There are FAR, FAR more solid AA groups than those you are describing here.
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Virus,

Can’t you do all this “sin” stuff with a Catholic priest with the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and be absolved and receive grace…? after all you have to do this anyway…why the middle man?
 
Mgray82 said:
I don’t know that he supports AA. But he proposes philosophical evidence that the soul can become sick…kinda like the “spiritual malady” AA talks about.

Now, you don’t have to believe Mr. Kreeft’s argument. But having lived with a “soul sickness”, I sure do…

May I suggest listening to a lecture he gave at the Institute for the Psychological Sciences…
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Mgray,

This is tangential thinking at it’s best. Kreeft and soul sickness? What does that have to do with your planning to squash and prove that Alcholism is a disease 100%…cmon…have at it…

What makes a soul sick…let me guess…SIN???

I was close…the transcript of the talk is here…

integratedcatholiclife.org/2011/11/dr-kreeft-how-to-win-the-culture-war/
What is the horror inside your soul? Sin. All sin is the Devil’s work, though he usually uses the flesh and the world as his instruments. Sin means inviting the Devil in. And we do it. That’s the only reason why he can do his awful work; God won’t let him do it without our free consent. And that’s why the Church is weak and the world is dying: because we are not saints.
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and for this malady you go to the source of salvation…AA…forget that …go to Church
 
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