AA

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

This is tangential thinking at it’s best. Kreeft and soul sickness? What does that have to do with your planning to squash and prove that Alcholism is a disease 100%…cmon…have at it…

What makes a soul sick…let me guess…SIN???

Yes, I agree.

But there’s more to the sin than just the sin. For example, the alcoholic’s body and it’s ability to devour an indescribable amount of alcohol.

Kinda goes with where I was going in my scenario…

How can an alcoholic who stays sober for 5 years, relapses and consumes that much alcohol live to tell about it?

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

This is tangential thinking at it’s best. Kreeft and soul sickness? What does that have to do with your planning to squash and prove that Alcholism is a disease 100%…cmon…have at it…

What makes a soul sick…let me guess…SIN???

I was close…the transcript of the talk is here…

integratedcatholiclife.org/2011/11/dr-kreeft-how-to-win-the-culture-war/

and for this malady you go to the source of salvation…AA…forget that …go to Church

I don’t go to AA for salvation…

 

[VirtusTransitus]

Virus,

Can’t you do all this “sin” stuff with a Catholic priest with the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and be absolved and receive grace…? after all you have to do this anyway…why the middle man?

God is the middle man. The group is a fraternity of built in support. If you have never wondered what the point of a six pack or a single glass of wine is, the you really can’t relate to an alcoholic. So the group - rather than the church - provides specific fraternity to help meld the spiritual side of religion with the practical side of addiction.

 

[estesbob]

You’re wasting your time with this bunch…

Yes -as are you and I .

 

[Mgray82]

And that is the proof that alcoholism is a disease Coptic.

If you can answer how someone can stay sober for 5 years, relapse, then binge till they crash or run out of support (for the alcohol)…you would have cured the disease and millions of people and medical professionals would consider you a world renowned hero.

 

[Mgray82]

Yes -as are you and I .

I may be the only truth of AA and alcoholism they read on the Internet.

That’s the motivation I’m giving myself…

All in good love

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, I agree.

But there’s more to the sin than just the sin. For example, the alcoholic’s body and it’s ability to devour an indescribable amount of alcohol.

Kinda goes with where I was going in my scenario…

How can an alcoholic who stays sober for 5 years, relapses and consumes that much alcohol live to tell about it?

Mgray,

The reason that the alcoholic can relapse and live to tell about it is because it is hard to overdose and kill yourself on alcohol. If you have not noticed those that drink themselves to death take a long time to do it…it is a slow painful death…not quick and that is why they live to tell about it…

 

[CopticChristian]

God is the middle man. The group is a fraternity of built in support. If you have never wondered what the point of a six pack or a single glass of wine is, the you really can’t relate to an alcoholic. So the group - rather than the church - provides specific fraternity to help meld the spiritual side of religion with the practical side of addiction.

Virus,

Then AA is unecessary and any support group will do.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

People leave the church for all kinds of reasons. Which I’m not condoning…you know as well as I do it’s because they either weren’t properly catechized or they had no faith to begin with. Don’t give me that garbage.

Funny, I got sober through AA and now I’m in RCIA…go figure.

If it weren’t for God giving me AA, your Church wouldn’t be obtaining this new member. I’d probably be dead.

Been watching this discussion. Remember…

Take what you need and leave the rest.
How important is it?
Live and let live
Let go and let God.

The people who are so anti-AA have closed minds. They can’t understand how it helps. They haven’t lived it. So say a prayer and let it go.



Glad you got sober, and welcome home!

 

[CopticChristian]

**And that is the proof that alcoholism is a disease **Coptic.

If you can answer how someone can stay sober for 5 years, relapse, then binge till they crash or run out of support (for the alcohol)…you would have cured the disease and millions of people and medical professionals would consider you a world renowned hero.

Mgray,

That’s it? That’s all you got? You want me to accept this as proof that alcoholism is a disease?

Now just imagine I am on the phone…Dr. Jones…this is Dr. Coptic…now Mgray here just provided me proof that Alcoholism is a disease…hmmmm howde do dat…well he told me about these two guys drinking Bud-lite…and one drank a 6 pack and then could not stop and got into trouble…Ok…hmmm that was all…yup…no medical literature? Nope…No studies? Nope…No epidemiologic data…Nope…Was there any reference to when this disease was claimed to be a disease and why and by whom…Nope just a story about a six pack…

Tell you what Dr. Coptic…I wouldn’t take this proof too seriously…

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

The reason that the alcoholic can relapse and live to tell about it is because it is hard to overdose and kill yourself on alcohol. If you have not noticed those that drink themselves to death take a long time to do it…it is a slow painful death…not quick and that is why they live to tell about it…

No, it’s what we alcoholics call a “tolerance”.

The non-alcoholic would be comatose in the scenario I provided you.

This is what the medical profession can’t answer.

This is where you and millions of others are stumped.

Alcoholism is a disease.

 

[Mgray82]

Been watching this discussion. Remember…

Take what you need and leave the rest.
How important is it?
Live and let live
Let go and let God.

The people who are so anti-AA have closed minds. They can’t understand how it helps. They haven’t lived it. So say a prayer and let it go.



Glad you got sober, and welcome home!

I’m coming to the end of it.

And thanks.

 

[CopticChristian]

**No, it’s what we alcoholics call a “tolerance”. **
The non-alcoholic would be comatose in the scenario I provided you.

This is what the medical profession can’t answer.

This is where you and millions of others are stumped.

Alcoholism is a disease.

Mgray,

Let me unstump you…what you call Tolerance is what we Physicians call “Tachyphylaxis”…it is common that when a medication is provided continually that the body reacts in a way to cause the body to need more to get the same effect…it is a function of the mitochondria in the liver as they rev up their function to detox the liver of poisons…

The medical profession, that includes me, have demystified this scenario by explaining that the physiological experience of tachyphylaxis is what you lay people call tolerance and believe that it is attributable magically to alcohol and those that drink it…

As a member of the medical profession just having answered this stumper and demystifying it for the millions of others that may have been stumped…I can’t claim a noble prize because this is common knowledge in the medical profession.

Alcoholism is not now or ever been a disease in reality.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Mgray,

The reason that the alcoholic can relapse and live to tell about it is because it is hard to overdose and kill yourself on alcohol. If you have not noticed those that drink themselves to death take a long time to do it…it is a slow painful death…not quick and that is why they live to tell about it…

Here’s a question for you. If alcoholism is not a disease, why does it seem to continue to progress even when alcoholics get sober? It is well-known that when alcoholics go out and start drinking again, their disease process does not start at the beginning again, no matter how many years they’ve been sober, but actually increases rapidly, as though the disease has been waiting for them all along, and the progress is easily observed. They can arrest the progress temporarily, but if they continue to drink, it really doesn’t take all that long until they start having life-threatening problems.

You can think of alcoholism as a disease, or an allergy to alcohol, but it is more than a character failing. It is a metabolic phenomenon that happens to some people and not to others. I think many people can develop the conditions but perhaps they don’t have the same metabolic addiction as true alcoholics. I don’t pretend to understand alcoholism but what I do know is that people who drink alcoholically are not in control of their actions. And I know that AA helps a lot of people get sober. Al-Anon also helps their families change so the alcoholic can stay sober. Maybe it’s a healthy addiction in trade for an unhealthy one.

It doesn’t replace church, that I do know. And it doesn’t conflict with church, either. If someone starts talking about being a “recovering Catholic” in a meeting, I just stop the meeting and remind them that we’re not supposed to be including our religious beliefs other than mentioning our Higher Power. It’s not a big deal. People talk bad about the Church everywhere.

I really don’t know why anyone here has a problem with AA. If it helps people, who are you to discourage people from going?

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

Let me unstump you…what you call Tolerance is what we Physicians call “Tachyphylaxis”…it is common that when a medication is provided continually that the body reacts in a way to cause the body to need more to get the same effect…it is a function of the mitochondria in the liver as they rev up their function to detox the liver of poisons…

The medical profession, that includes me, have demystified this scenario by explaining that the physiological experience of tachyphylaxis is what you lay people call tolerance and believe that it is attributable magically to alcohol and those that drink it…

As a member of the medical profession just having answered this stumper and demystifying it for the millions of others that may have been stumped…I can’t claim a noble prize because this is common knowledge in the medical profession.

Alcoholism is not now or ever been a disease in reality.

Uh-huh…you’re the same doctor that told me its hard to overdose on alcohol.

You certainly haven’t drank with a guy like me.

 

[CopticChristian]

Here’s a question for you. If alcoholism is not a disease, why does it seem to continue to progress even when alcoholics get sober? It is well-known that when alcoholics go out and start drinking again, their disease process does not start at the beginning again, no matter how many years they’ve been sober, but actually increases rapidly, as though the disease has been waiting for them all along, and the progress is easily observed. They can arrest the progress temporarily, but if they continue to drink, it really doesn’t take all that long until they start having life-threatening problems.

You can think of alcoholism as a disease, or an allergy to alcohol, but it is more than a character failing. It is a metabolic phenomenon that happens to some people and not to others. I think many people can develop the conditions but perhaps they don’t have the same metabolic addiction as true alcoholics. I don’t pretend to understand alcoholism but what I do know is that people who drink alcoholically are not in control of their actions. And I know that AA helps a lot of people get sober. Al-Anon also helps their families change so the alcoholic can stay sober. Maybe it’s a healthy addiction in trade for an unhealthy one.

It doesn’t replace church, that I do know. And it doesn’t conflict with church, either. If someone starts talking about being a “recovering Catholic” in a meeting, I just stop the meeting and remind them that we’re not supposed to be including our religious beliefs other than mentioning our Higher Power. It’s not a big deal. People talk bad about the Church everywhere.

I really don’t know why anyone here has a problem with AA. If it helps people, who are you to discourage people from going?

RJ,

The entire paragraph in red is think speak of the AA 12 step paragigm that I cannot dialogue in. I deny this entire concept as do others. It is not a disease. There is no allergy to alcohol. Do a google search on Alcohol Allergy and you will be astounded. It exists but it is rare and not attributable to the AA paradigm.

Your questions are good questions. There are answers and I suggest you do some reading and I would start with The Truth About Addiction by Stanton Peele, read the stuff on the websites St. Gregory, St Jude and Schick Shadel, as well as the stuff by Hester on what works.

I don’t have a problem with AA, I have a problem with truth. It is a lie that Alcoholism is a disease and while waiting for the proof it never came. I can provide you the evidence for this sham disease but I have to go pick up my daughter and friends. I shall return. Research the name Jellinek…he is the guy that published a paper that got this disease stuff started…I will later post it and those that point out the weakness of the paper that he later denied and more.

 

[CopticChristian]

Uh-huh…you’re the same doctor that told me its hard to overdose on alcohol.

You certainly haven’t drank with a guy like me.

Mgray,

You are alive…so you did not overdose and die. I worked in the Emergency room at San Francisco, Tucson, Orange County and elsewhere…never do I recall a death from alcohol overdose…heroin yes…not alcohol…

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

Let me unstump you…what you call Tolerance is what we Physicians call “Tachyphylaxis”…it is common that when a medication is provided continually that the body reacts in a way to cause the body to need more to get the same effect…it is a function of the mitochondria in the liver as they rev up their function to detox the liver of poisons…

The medical profession, that includes me, have demystified this scenario by explaining that the physiological experience of tachyphylaxis is what you lay people call tolerance and believe that it is attributable magically to alcohol and those that drink it…

As a member of the medical profession just having answered this stumper and demystifying it for the millions of others that may have been stumped…I can’t claim a noble prize because this is common knowledge in the medical profession.

Alcoholism is not now or ever been a disease in reality.

Do you give your patients alcohol as medication doctor?

But, you certainly are on to something. This phenomena is not common in narcotic addicts though right doc? When they relapse after sufficient sobriety times they can die very easily from too much narcotic.

How do you reconcile this?

I’ll be sure to get all this to the orthopedic surgeon who attends AA meeting with me by the way.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

You are alive…so you did not overdose and die. I worked in the Emergency room at San Francisco, Tucson, Orange County and elsewhere…never do I recall a death from alcohol overdose…heroin yes…not alcohol…

I’ve never relapsed after this much sobriety time. Coming into AA I relapsed a handful of times with the longest period of sobriety being around 30-45 days. I have 2 years now.

 

[Mgray82]

RJ,

The entire paragraph in red is think speak of the AA 12 step paragigm that I cannot dialogue in. I deny this entire concept as do others. It is not a disease. There is no allergy to alcohol. Do a google search on Alcohol Allergy and you will be astounded. It exists but it is rare and not attributable to the AA paradigm.

Your questions are good questions. There are answers and I suggest you do some reading and I would start with The Truth About Addiction by Stanton Peele, read the stuff on the websites St. Gregory, St Jude and Schick Shadel, as well as the stuff by Hester on what works.

I don’t have a problem with AA, I have a problem with truth. It is a lie that Alcoholism is a disease and while waiting for the proof it never came. I can provide you the evidence for this sham disease but I have to go pick up my daughter and friends. I shall return. Research the name Jellinek…he is the guy that published a paper that got this disease stuff started…I will later post it and those that point out the weakness of the paper that he later denied and more.

So, to sum this up; alcoholism is not a disease, but I can’t prove it’s not.

Either God exists or He don’t.