AA

[Andrew1980]

Andrew1980;10144354:

Andrew,

I had no idea that weight watchers required you to confess your sins.

The Catholic church requires you to confess your sins. SA encourages people to follow that teaching. I’m not sure what is wrong with encouraging people to confess their sins? Can you explain, why we shouldn’t confess our sins?

 

[maryjk]

They can, who is stopping them? All I know is that the 12 Steps is definitely a great benefit for many people. Is it the only way to stop acting out compulsions? Of course not. No one claims that it is.

In my experience one of the great things about the 12 Steps is that it doesn’t let you take the easy way out, so to speak. To get recovery, you surrender yourself to God.

Actually you surrender yourself to … well… whatever. A higher power greater than yourself, which could be anything or anyone. And turn your life over to God “as you understand him,” which could be a cupcake.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

1. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

1. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Of course that doesn’t get into the “its a disease,” which also means it isn’t your fault. I mean would you blame someone for having cancer? Or arthritis? Of course not, but someone living in sin, now that is a problem.

If that isn’t an easy way out, I don’t know what is.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

So then anyone with addiction/Vice/Habit is lost if they do surrender to a 12 step/religion program and cannot find help and resolve their problems. Is this what you believe?

Not at all, what I am saying is that they need Christ. Ultimately, there is no other solution. Christ came for all, he is the way the truth and the light. The 12 steps is just one of probably a billion processes to find him. We need Christ, pure and simple. Anything less, is just a poor substitute for what a human is looking for in this world. It will leave them empty and not filled. It is Christ that has the living water that suffices for that which we desire and it is the living water which allows us to thirst no more.

 

[CopticChristian]

The reason they did that was not to denigrate religion or to promote indifferentism or any such thing, but to cast the widest net – to reach athiests or agnostics who would otherwise be put off by the program. And sadly, sometimes people need in the interim something, anyting to cling to before they can find God – think of St. Paul’s words: “I fed you with milk because you were not ready for solid food.” Geting somebody to believe in something, anything higher and greater than themselves, even if it is the chair they sit in at that meeting, is for the good and will lead them, God willing, to the one greatest good, God Himself.

BTW, one of the men that Bill W. consulted for aid with AA was a Jesuit priest, and there is a glowing recommendation from a Bishop, IIRC, in the Big Book.

Pat,

Bill W. was under the tutelage of Bishop Sheen for awhile, we have no idea what the Jesuit priest read and the Episcopalean that wrote has no authority over anyone. This is an appeal to authority that is not an authority. The Dr. Silkworth that Bill consulted with believed that you needed to turn your life over to Christ, although the Big Book does not say this, and Ebey Thatcher was saved in a Protestant Church to whom Bill went for help., Henrietta Seiberling expressed anti-Catholic sentiment concerning Bill and concerns about Bill W. involving himself with seances as well. Did you know that?

 

[CopticChristian]

Not at all, what I am saying is that they need Christ. Ultimately, there is no other solution. Christ came for all, he is the way the truth and the light. The 12 steps is just one of probably a billion processes to find him. We need Christ, pure and simple. Anything less, is just a poor substitute for what a human is looking for in this world. It will leave them empty and not filled. It is Christ that has the living water that suffices for that which we desire and it is the living water which allows us to thirst no more.

Andrew,

My concern is the numerous “I used to be Catholic”…“I am a recovering Catholic and recovering alcoholic” that have lost their faith in the halls of AA. I care about them.

 

[Andrew1980]

Of course that doesn’t get into the “its a disease,” which also means it isn’t your fault. I mean would you blame someone for having cancer? Or arthritis? Of course not, but someone living in sin, now that is a problem.

If that isn’t an easy way out, I don’t know what is.

It sure as heck is my fault for being an addict! No one says it isn’t our fault. Whose fault is it that someone contracts an STD? I would have a hard time saying it wasn’t the persons fault who chose to sleep around. My sinful life, created a sinful habit, which caused me to become an addict. I now get to live with this “disease”. Its not a big deal, but it is definitely my fault and only my fault. The fact that my brain is likely altered permanently is not because I was born this way, it is a result of my choices. When I was younger I turned to sin to help me cope with anxiety, stress, lonliness, etc. I knew it was wrong, I chose to take this path and now I pay the consequences.

Please don’t think that just because you contract a disease doesn’t make it your fault.

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually you surrender yourself to … well… whatever. A higher power greater than yourself, which could be anything or anyone. And turn your life over to God “as you understand him,” which could be a cupcake.

Of course that doesn’t get into the “its a disease,” which also means it isn’t your fault. I mean would you blame someone for having cancer? Or arthritis? Of course not, but someone living in sin, now that is a problem.

If that isn’t an easy way out, I don’t know what is.

Mryj,

If surrendering to a cupcake was all that was necessary then there would be no chapter in the Big Book…to the Agnostic and there would be no “Our Father” said while holding hands in a meeting.

You are correct that the “disease” removes culpability however for removal of tha culpability you accept the SCARLET LETTER and be labeled for the rest of your life or

it is sin and we all sin…and there is no need to introduce yourself at mass…“Hi my name is John and I am a sinner…” “Hello John, welcome”…

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

My concern is the numerous “I used to be Catholic”…“I am a recovering Catholic and recovering alcoholic” that have lost their faith in the halls of AA. I care about them.

In my experience they are few and far between. I would guess AA/SA etc have brought far more people into the church than those that had left. I have seen quite a few converts in the short time I have been in SA.

 

[Mgray82]

Well, regardless of Coptic or Maryjk’s opinion of AA…considering the outcome of this poll thus far, they’ve got a lot more convincing to do. Surely all those voting a “no” aren’t AA’s.

 

[CopticChristian]

It sure as heck is my fault for being an addict! No one says it isn’t our fault. Whose fault is it that someone contracts an STD? I would have a hard time saying it wasn’t the persons fault who chose to sleep around. My sinful life, created a sinful habit, which caused me to become an addict. I now get to live with this “disease”. Its not a big deal, but it is definitely my fault and only my fault. The fact that my brain is likely altered permanently is not because I was born this way, it is a result of my choices. When I was younger I turned to sin to help me cope with anxiety, stress, lonliness, etc. I knew it was wrong, I chose to take this path and now I pay the consequences.

Please don’t think that just because you contract a disease doesn’t make it your fault.

Andrew,

In simple terms now that you have a disease, explain to me, a Physician, how you contracted this disease and how it can be avoided. I don’t want it and I don’t want others to get it, so tell me.

 

[CopticChristian]

In my experience they are few and far between. I would guess AA/SA etc have brought far more people into the church than those that had left. I have seen quite a few converts in the short time I have been in SA.

Andrew,

This is conjecture. For one woman, one man, that may mean an entire family. I know one woman, through AA, found God and then had to find a Church for the family to go to…it is not one person, but many…and this person was looking for non-denominational…used to be Catholic…

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, regardless of Coptic or Maryjk’s opinion of AA…considering the outcome of this poll thus far, they’ve got a lot more convincing to do. Surely all those voting a “no” aren’t AA’s.

Mgray,

So you are resorting to polls for the truth?

So, all you have to do to find the truth is do a poll?

So much for producing evidence based treatment modalities. AA/12 steps is 37/48 when compared to other modalities, but lets go to Family Feud where the polls say…and those lurking can be led to get help by your poll.

St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, shouted the Catholic Faith and the majority Arians overran his see and Catholicism dwindle, does that make it less true?

 

[Andrew1980]

Mryj,

You are correct that the “disease” removes culpability however for removal of tha culpability you accept the SCARLET LETTER and be labeled for the rest of your life or
…

I don’t agree with the above statement. The knowledge that I cannot handle lust like a regular person and that I am far more likely to end up looking at pornography if I check out the cashier/waitress or whatever makes me EXTREMELY culpable for even the smallest amounts of lust.

Its like being a school lunch lady who is careless with peanut usage. In the grand scheme of things it might not be a big deal, but if she KNOWS she has students with severe peanut allergies and her carelessness could cost them their lives, she is MUCH MORE culpable to be careful when using peanuts at school.

The disease doesn’t make us less culpable, it makes us more culpable. We must refrain from any level of sinful behavior with the knowledge that we are much more likely to fall into deeper sin than the bulk of the population.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t agree with the above statement. The knowledge that I cannot handle lust like a regular person and that I am far more likely to end up looking at pornography if I check out the cashier/waitress or whatever makes me EXTREMELY culpable for even the smallest amounts of lust.

Its like being a school lunch lady who is careless with peanut usage. In the grand scheme of things it might not be a big deal, but if she KNOWS she has students with severe peanut allergies and her carelessness could cost them their lives, she is MUCH MORE culpable to be careful when using peanuts at school.

The disease doesn’t make us less culpable, it makes us more culpable. We must refrain from any level of sinful behavior with the knowledge that we are much more likely to fall into deeper sin than the bulk of the population.

Andrew,

So, as a Physician I hear you telling me the effects and symptoms of this disease that you have. You were quick to give me this information. Please tell my how you get it.

Lung Cancer…

Well, first smoking may increase your risk, then of course family history plays a role, age, gender and of course those that have cancer get cancer. The best is to not smoke, get annual check ups and x-ray as indicated.

Addiction/Disease…

tell me how you get it.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

In simple terms now that you have a disease, explain to me, a Physician, how you contracted this disease and how it can be avoided. I don’t want it and I don’t want others to get it, so tell me.

Don’t resort to a vice to cope with life. Don’t use it to handle stress, to handle lonliness, to handle isolation. It is a lie. What will happen if you do, is that over the course of time is that your neural connections will wire themselves in such a manner that these “bad habits” will become the normal response mechanism when in a particular state. For me, I used lust to medicate almost anything. So what happens is, if I get a bad review at work, it triggers anxiety, my anxiety makes me want to lust. If I get aggitated by a bad driver, it makes me want to lust. Over the course of many years of conditioning, I programmed my neuropathways to seek relief in lustful behavior. It is now my default mode. Addicts brains truly do not operate like a normal person do to repeated conditioning to resort to our vices in times of distress.

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

So you are resorting to polls for the truth?

So, all you have to do to find the truth is do a poll?

So much for producing evidence based treatment modalities. AA/12 steps is 37/48 when compared to other modalities, but lets go to Family Feud where the polls say…and those lurking can be led to get help by your poll.

St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, shouted the Catholic Faith and the majority Arians overran his see and Catholicism dwindle, does that make it less true?

No sir. I resort to Jesus Christ for truth.

This poll merely shows what anonymous strangers from the internet whom most are probably Catholics, think of AA.

You have more convincing to do.

I have nothing to prove.

 

[CopticChristian]

Don’t resort to a vice to cope with life. Don’t use it to handle stress, to handle lonliness, to handle isolation. It is a lie. What will happen if you do, is that over the course of time is that your neural connections will wire themselves in such a manner that these “bad habits” will become the normal response mechanism when in a particular state. For me, I used lust to medicate almost anything. So what happens is, if I get a bad review at work, it triggers anxiety, my anxiety makes me want to lust. If I get aggitated by a bad driver, it makes me want to lust. Over the course of many years of conditioning, I programmed my neuropathways to seek relief in lustful behavior. It is now my default mode. Addicts brains truly do not operate like a normal person do to repeated conditioning to resort to our vices in times of distress.

Andrew,

So your behavior caused your brain to be rewired. Correct?

You may want to view the HBO special on Addiction about brain changes.

Is it your belief that once rewired never to be unwired?

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

Addiction/Disease…

tell me how you get it.

See post above. Our neuropathways have been altered due to repeated usage of our “drug” of choice. In my case it was porn/masterbation. After regularly acting out for a period of 16 years or so, my brain has cemented some pretty solid neuropathways that likely won’t be completely uprooted until the day I die.

 

[CopticChristian]

No sir. I resort to Jesus Christ for truth.

This poll merely shows what anonymous strangers from the internet whom most are probably Catholics, think of AA.

You have more convincing to do.

I have nothing to prove.

Mgray,

Without a poll, Dr. Reid Hester published fact of evidence based approaches for addiction that says that AA/12 steps has a success rate that ranks 37/48. No poll. Just evidence. I have no one to convince. I hope that lurkers see honesty, reality and note what does and does not work as they seek help.

 

[CopticChristian]

See post above. Our neuropathways have been altered due to repeated usage of our “drug” of choice. In my case it was porn/masterbation. After regularly acting out for a period of 16 years or so, my brain has cemented some pretty solid neuropathways that likely won’t be completely uprooted until the day I die.

Andrew,

I suggest that you watch the HBO special, in that special, brain scans show with Methamphetamine use the brain changes however after discontinuing the brain reverts to pre Meth use. In other words not permanently wired.

You believe in 1/2 the truth. You can wire your brain however if you believe it is fixed then you condemn any possiblilty that humans can learn by suggesting fixed wiring.

Wired, rewired, unwired is fact not fancy.