AA

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

So your behavior caused your brain to be rewired. Correct?

You may want to view the HBO special on Addiction about brain changes.

Is it your belief that once rewired never to be unwired?

Incorrect, our brains will slowly rewire themselves, but it will take a while. Likely as long if not longer than the length of our acting out phase. I doubt I will ever get to a point that I can “lust” normally. Since lust itself is a sin, its really not worth worrying about. I am not missing out on anything beneficial by not being able to lust. Its actually a great blessing; if I had the ability to lust and not end up spending 5 hours tonight online looking at porn I probably would still lust regularly. Not being able to lust without crashing is actually a great deterant to any level of lust which is all wrong.

Back on point though, I believe it is possible to rewire your brain, although I would doubt that my brain would ever get back to a level had I never lusted to start with.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

You believe in 1/2 the truth. You can wire your brain however if you believe it is fixed then you condemn any possiblilty that humans can learn by suggesting fixed wiring.

Wired, rewired, unwired is fact not fancy.

You make too many assumptions about what I think or do not think. I believe you can re-wire your brain, but that it just takes time. It really doesn’t matter to me if I can or not, but I am confident you can. Although with as often as I acted out, I don’t think it will happen anytime soon. I also know that despite being in 3 1/2 years of recovery, that if I lust just once, I jump into the preoccupation stage and have a VERY difficult time not consuming any additional lust. It is probably getting easier the longer I have been off my “drug”, but my brain/actions are far from what I would consider a normal person to experience.

Got to go, I might catch up tomorrow.

God Bless!

 

[Andrew1980]

Sorry, but one last post. I just wanted to re-itterate that despite my terrible behaviour in the area of lust, I am convinced that my main issues were with pride and selfishness. Most of the time our addictions are just surface level issues and little progress is made if we only work on “stopping lusting”.

Stopping lusting by itself would have done me little to no good. My “Real” problems, although not seen as problematic by most of the world, were with pride and selfishness. My pride allowed me to act as the pharisee when in the presence of the tax collector at the temple. Since even while going through my act out stage, I was; regularly attending daily mass, going to church retreats, adoration, volunteering, donating time and money to charity, etc (by all external accounts an upstanding person… many people felt I would make a great priest)… as a result, I thought of myself as far holier than I was and felt as though I was a great Catholic with a lust problem. I slowly found out, by working the 12 steps, that I was a poor Catholic with more defects than I will have time to deal with while on this earth, and that the lust issue was one of the least of my worries. Had I been able to stop lusting without getting to my root sins; I would have thumped my chest in pride all the more. I am thankful the 12 Steps helped me to see more clearly the sinner that I am, the inability of my own strength to avoid sin, and the need I have of Christ and his Church to lead me home.

God Bless now I really am going to go.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Had I been able to stop lusting without getting to my root sins; I would have thumped my chest in pride all the more.

That’s a very important insight.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Sorry, but one last post. I just wanted to re-itterate that despite my terrible behaviour in the area of lust, I am convinced that my main issues were with pride and selfishness. Most of the time our addictions are just surface level issues and little progress is made if we only work on “stopping lusting”.

Stopping lusting by itself would have done me little to no good. My “Real” problems, although not seen as problematic by most of the world, were with pride and selfishness. My pride allowed me to act as the pharisee when in the presence of the tax collector at the temple. **Since even while going through my act out stage, I was; regularly attending daily mass, going to church retreats, adoration, volunteering, donating time and money to charity, etc (by all external accounts an upstanding person… many people felt I would make a great priest)… as a result, I thought of myself as far holier than I was and felt as though I was a great Catholic with a lust problem. I slowly found out, by working the 12 steps, that I was a poor Catholic with more defects than I will have time to deal with while on this earth, and that the lust issue was one of the least of my worries. ** Had I been able to stop lusting without getting to my root sins; I would have thumped my chest in pride all the more. I am thankful the 12 Steps helped me to see more clearly the sinner that I am, the inability of my own strength to avoid sin, and the need I have of Christ and his Church to lead me home.

God Bless now I really am going to go.

Thankyou so much for this post. It is a great explanation of why the 12 steps are the appropriate remedy for some people. And, BTW, I have never been to an A.A or S.A group which thought they are the only remedy, or the best remedy for everyone - we always welcome the individual and leave it up to them to decide whether our program is right for them.

I also note that your story is an answer to those who, whenever someone asks “How do I overcome impurity”, recommend a spiritual approach, based on prayers and the sacraments, along with “keeping busy”, as **guarenteed **to work. While acknowledging that it may work for some, it doesn’t work for everyone. In my observation, Catholics in 12 step programs are usually ones who have tried everything else, including the “spiritual” path, and admitted defeat. They usually say that the program IS the answer to the prayer “God help me to be sober”.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thankyou so much for this post. It is a great explanation of why the 12 steps are the appropriate **remedy **for some people. And, BTW, I have never been to an A.A or S.A group which thought they are the only remedy, or the best **remedy **for everyone - we always welcome the individual and leave it up to them to decide whether our program is right for them.

I also note that your story is an answer to those who, whenever someone asks “How do I overcome impurity”, recommend a spiritual approach, based on prayers and the sacraments, along with “keeping busy”, as **guarenteed **to work. While acknowledging that it may work for some, it doesn’t work for everyone. In my observation, Catholics in 12 step programs are usually ones who have tried everything else, including the “spiritual” path, and admitted defeat. They usually say that the **program **IS the answer to the prayer “God help me to be sober”.

Ed,

Thank you for clarifying this issue. Your praise for Andrew is heart felt and here he outlines the program you praise. Dr. Silkworth advised Wilson to accept Christ as personal Lord and Savior…and so it goes…

Had I been able to stop lusting without getting to my root **sins; **I would have thumped my chest in pride all the more. I am thankful the 12 Steps helped me to see more clearly the **sinner **that I am, the inability of my own strength to avoid **sin, **and the need I have of Christ and his Church to lead me home.

Yes the remedy to sin is Christ. Lets call a spade a spade…you know the story. Dr. Silkworth that wrote the introduction to the Big Book worked with Bill Wilson and as you know

Charles, a businessman in Virginia, had become a full-fledged alcoholic; so much so that he had to have help, and fast, for his life was cracking up. He made an appointment with the late Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, one of the nation’s greatest experts on alcoholism, who worked in a New York City hospital [the Charles Towns Hospital]. Receiving Charles into his clinic as a patient, the doctor gave him treatment for some days, then called him into his office. “Charles,” he said, “I have done everything I can for you. At this moment you are free of your trouble. But there is an area in your brain where you may hold a reservation and that could, in all likelihood, cause you to return to your drinking. I wish that I might reach this place in your consciousness, but alas, I do not have the skill.”

    "But, doctor," exclaimed Charles, "you are the most skilled physician in this field. When I came to you it was to the greatest. If you cannot heal me, then who can possibly do so?" The doctor hesitated, then said thoughtfully, "There is another Doctor who can complete this healing, but He is very expensive."

    "That's all right," cried Charles, "I can get the money. I can pay his fees. I cannot go home until I am healed. Who is this doctor and where is he?"

    "Oh, but this Physician is not at all moderate as to expense," persisted Dr. Silkworth. "He wants everything you've got. He wants you, all of you. Then He gives the healing. His price is your entire self." Then he added slowly and impressively, **"His name is Jesus Christ and He keeps office in the New Testament and is available whenever you need Him."**

and of course Wilson and his friend Ebby were saved at Calvary Mission…so after Bill got saved the book was written…and of course this is all known…so let us get the cat out of the bag…

christians-in-recovery.org/Tools_AA-BB_Silkworth-The-Little-Doctor-Who-Loved-Drunks-DickB

I have several times told how Bill acted on Silkworth’s advice. First, Bill learned around late November 1934 that his old friend, Ebby Thacher, had just recently made a decision for Christ at Calvary Mission, the Gospel rescue mission run by Shoemaker’s Calvary Church.[16] Bill decided that the Great Physician might be able to help him just as he had helped Ebby. Bill said he thought, “Yes if there was any great physician that could cure the alcohol sickness, I’d better seek him now, at once. I’d better find what my friend [Ebby Thacher] had found.”[17]

**Bill went to Calvary Mission around December 7, 1934, made a decision to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior,**18] and later wrote that for sure he had been “born again.”[19] He decided to call on the Great Physician for help.[20]

those lurking should know that when they go to AA that they are going to encounter God and probably will be urged to ask Jesus to be their savior, nothing wrong with that…but why keep it a secret…

continued…

 

[CopticChristian]

Thankyou so much for this post. It is a great explanation of why the 12 steps are the appropriate remedy for some people. And, BTW, I have never been to an A.A or S.A group which thought they are the only remedy, or the best remedy for everyone - we always welcome the individual and leave it up to them to decide whether our program is right for them.

I also note that your story is an answer to those who, whenever someone asks “How do I overcome impurity”, recommend a spiritual approach, based on prayers and the sacraments, along with “keeping busy”, as **guarenteed **to work. While acknowledging that it may work for some, it doesn’t work for everyone. In my observation, Catholics in 12 step programs are usually ones who have tried everything else, including the **“spiritual” path, **and admitted defeat. They usually say that the program IS the answer to the prayer “God help me to be sober”.

Continued…

in the name of

Jesus Christ the Bearer of Water of Life…let us discuss…this as you know we share in the priesthood of Christ and we all should be concerned in Pastoral care and as a Catholic Physician, I have a particular concern for this issue in truth…

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

**These reflections are offered primarily to those engaged in pastoral work so that they might be able to explain how the New Age movement differs from the Christian faith. This study invites readers to take account of the way that New Age religiosity addresses the spiritual hunger of contemporary men and women. **

It should be recognized that the attraction that New Age religiosity has for some Christians may be due in part to the lack of serious attention in their own communities for themes which are actually part of the Catholic synthesis such as the importance of man’ spiritual dimension and its integration with the whole of life, the search for life’s meaning, the link between human beings and the rest of creation, the desire for personal and social transformation, and the rejection of a rationalistic and materialistic view of humanity.

But it is a volatile vehicle of misinformation on so many aspects of religion: not all that is labelled “Christian” or “Catholic” can be trusted to reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church and, at the same time, there is a remarkable expansion of New Age sources ranging from the serious to the ridiculous. People need, and have a right to, reliable information on the differences between Christianity and New Age.

since AA/12 steps ranks 37/48 and you point out that, even though this program has a poor success rate…what concerns me is the spiritual path…having failed even this…

usually ones who have tried everything else, including the “spiritual” path, and admitted defeat.

Since I am a student of this problem and I want to be informed and have researched…tell me of this spiritual path…if this spiritual path has a success rate that is less than the 12 steps…tell me…

outline this spiritual path
name this spiritual path
what is this spiritual path

for some fail…I need to know so that I can see what it is, discover the weaknesses and perhaps use it as a paradigm to build on…so please…what is this spiritual path you speak of…

Let us reflect for the common good of those that suffer…in truth…let us reflect…

 

[CopticChristian]

Sorry, but one last post. I just wanted to re-itterate that despite my terrible behaviour in the area of lust, I am convinced that my main issues were with pride and selfishness. Most of the time our addictions are just surface level issues and little progress is made if we only work on “stopping lusting”.

Stopping lusting by itself would have done me little to no good. My “Real” problems, although not seen as problematic by most of the world, were with pride and selfishness. My pride allowed me to act as the pharisee when in the presence of the tax collector at the temple. Since even while going through my act out stage, I was; regularly attending daily mass, going to church retreats, adoration, volunteering, donating time and money to charity, etc (by all external accounts an upstanding person… many people felt I would make a great priest)… as a result, I thought of myself as far holier than I was and felt as though I was a great Catholic with a lust problem. I slowly found out, by working the 12 steps, that I was a poor Catholic with more defects than I will have time to deal with while on this earth, and that the lust issue was one of the least of my worries. Had I been able to stop lusting without getting to my root sins; I would have thumped my chest in pride all the more. I am thankful the 12 Steps helped me to see more clearly the sinner that I am, the inability of my own strength to avoid sin, and the need I have of Christ and his Church to lead me home.

God Bless now I really am going to go.

Andrew,

There is no question that you are a troubled man. You are a sinful man. Every durn addict is self centered, selfish, totally concerned with themselves at the expense of others, wreaking havoc on everyone around them, living like hypocrites…going to mass, acting but not being holy…you are a mess…

I am so grateful that I am not like you…

Now if you believe that then allow me to sell you a very nice bridge that you can own in New York near Brooklyn…

Who isn’t a sinner at one time in their life…you are not so different, perhaps you may want to think so…I do have a way of excavating yourself out of this mess…

tell me

Do you spend time with the word?
Do you think of the word?
Is the word close to you?
Do you believe that the word can change all this?

I ask you to spend some time listening to the Confessions of Augustine…free…do this and tell me if you feel like you are the only sinner in the world

archive.org/details/confessions_augustine_0911_librivox

 

[zenith15]

Ah. Hearsay. Impressive. Not.

“Hearsay”? What is the testimony of witnesses in court but “hearsay” if you view it like that? Did you expect to hear that Bill had been filmed saying these words on his deathbed? You asked for a citation of the claim, I provided it, you pooh-poohed it without even reading it. The person who wrote the biography was in fact a great admirer of Bill W. She had no reason whatever to make anything up. The sources she spoke with were several, and they all stated the same thing. They have no reason to lie. Why would you assume it is a lie? It’s a well known FACT that Bill took drugs (LSD), was a notorious womanizer, and suffered from severe depression throughout his recovery. Bill knew full well he was far from perfect and he also knew very well that his program did not work for many of those who tried it. In fact, during a meeting with Dr Vincent Dole, one of the founders of methadone treatment and who served as one of Bill’s non alcoholic trustees in AA, he asked him to try and find “an analogue of methadone” for alcoholics, to help those who were not helped by AA.

Bill may have had many bad habits and failings, but he DID realize the limits of his program and as he said in the Big Book, if someone found another path to sobriety, his hat was off to them. Yet many many many of his followers ignore this and insist that AA is the only way, that without AA there is no recovery and that without AA’s “spiritual path”, anyone who remains sober without AA is just a “dry drunk”, etc.

 

[Mgray82]

Coptic, in a previous post on this tread you agreed with me (and Peter Kreeft rather your realize it or not) that the soul, our human soul, can become sick.

You also took the word “addict” and gave us the Latin definition and the meaning thereof.

Coptic, can you tell us what the word “disease” means using Latin as you did with “addict”?

 

[Mgray82]

“Hearsay”? What is the testimony of witnesses in court but “hearsay” if you view it like that? Did you expect to hear that Bill had been filmed saying these words on his deathbed? You asked for a citation of the claim, I provided it, you pooh-poohed it without even reading it. The person who wrote the biography was in fact a great admirer of Bill W. She had no reason whatever to make anything up. The sources she spoke with were several, and they all stated the same thing. They have no reason to lie. Why would you assume it is a lie? It’s a well known FACT that Bill took drugs (LSD), was a notorious womanizer, and suffered from severe depression throughout his recovery. Bill knew full well he was far from perfect and he also knew very well that his program did not work for many of those who tried it. In fact, during a meeting with Dr Vincent Dole, one of the founders of methadone treatment and who served as one of Bill’s non alcoholic trustees in AA, he asked him to try and find “an analogue of methadone” for alcoholics, to help those who were not helped by AA.

Bill may have had many bad habits and failings, but he DID realize the limits of his program and as he said in the Big Book, if someone found another path to sobriety, his hat was off to them. Yet many many many of his followers ignore this and insist that AA is the only way, that without AA there is no recovery and that without AA’s “spiritual path”, anyone who remains sober without AA is just a “dry drunk”, etc.

Zenith15, when was the last time you donated your time and/or money to help someone who was struggling with alcohol or drugs? When was the last time you gave one of those “alcoholics” a ride to seek some sort of treatment for their ailment? When was the last time you looked at one of these people, shook their hand and told them that you loved them?

Isn’t this what our Lord calls us to do?

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

Who isn’t a sinner at one time in their life…you are not so different, perhaps you may want to think so…I do have a way of excavating yourself out of this mess…

tell me

Do you spend time with the word?
Do you think of the word?
Is the word close to you?
Do you believe that the word can change all this?

I ask you to spend some time listening to the Confessions of Augustine…free…do this and tell me if you feel like you are the only sinner in the world

archive.org/details/confessions_augustine_0911_librivox

Of course we are all sinners; no doubting that. But I am convinced that I cannot handle lust like you can, assuming you aren’t an addict yourself. Perhaps you can’t understand this since you are not one. If you understand the process of neuropathways, why can you not accept that someone such as myself has been able to damage their neuropathways to the extent that I can no longer handle triggers to those neuropathways like a normal person? Clearly, our brain is now wired differently. This makes me more likely to go down sinful paths if I indulge in lust compared to the average person. Its seems pretty straight forward. If you have never experienced this, maybe you just have a hard time accepting it.

Do you spend time with the word? Of course
Do you think of the word? Of course
Is the word close to you? Of course
Do you believe that the word can change all this? Of course.

I ask you to spend some time listening to the Confessions of Augustine…free…do this and tell me if you feel like you are the only sinner in the world - Who says I am the only sinner in the world? I am well aware of St Augustine. I would guess every addict is.

Your missing the main points.

1. You seem to think it is a negative to be labeled an “addict”. In fact it isn’t. It simply an acknowledgement that we have damaged ourselves through our own behavior to a point that we could no longer function normally around a certain behavior.
2. You seem to think curing our compulsion is the main point of the 12 Steps. This is not true. Curing our compulsions would likely hinder our progress on the Christian journey if that is the only thing we addressed. We must learn to turn our wills and lives over to Christ. The 12 Steps helps us to do that. Everyone must learn this if they are to find true peace and happiness in this life. Removing my lust addiction, before I found the need to completely turn my life over to Christ would have been considered “successful” recovery in the eyes of the world and medical journals. It would have been a false and hollow recovery as it would have missed out on the ONLY important aspect of true spiritual recovery and that is turning our lives to Christ.
3. Why would I want to be “normal”? As you define it. What does it matter if I believe myself to be an addict or not? Should I proclaim myself as normal so that I can once again entertain small amounts of lustful thoughts and actions??? So in pride as to not immediately flee these temptations as I ought to do as an addict or not? As addicts, we know the pain and hurt that we have put our family and friends through by living a sinful life. Its part of looking at the wreckage of the past and working towards amending our lives. How arrogant would we have to be to declare ourselves cured and then once again resume the riskful behavior that put us into our addictions in the first place? How uncharitiable would that be? An alcoholic who has spent 10 years in the bottle, gets recover for a few years and then decides that he will starting drinking after meals again, after all the hurt he has caused his family? Why not continue abstaining, if in nothing else, penance and respect for those he has hurt?
4. You seem to believe the 12 Steps push people away from Christ and his Church, however, I think you are way off. If anything, people are coming into the church due to working the 12 steps. In my experience, as people search for the honest truth they find Christ and his Church. You seem to think that the 12 Steps is designed to pull people out of the church, but I would guess this is far from being true.
5. Addicts like being in recovery! It is not a pain or a toil. Its a fellowship of Christians helping each other on the journey. You seem to think going to meetings is burdensome, it isn’t. Its a great part of my week.

 

[Jerusha]

As a former AA, I agree with the concept of alcoholism as an illness. My graduation came upon the realization that I by then hated the feeling of being drunk. And was troubled with repeating dreams of having had that one taste of alcohol with no negative consequences and breaking many years of sobriety.

When people struggle with feelings of condemnation, and believe that God will never forgive them, reframing the concept of sin (sickness of the soul) into something like “mistake” can free the individual from being spiritually stuck. My case was more complex; once I discovered that this feeling of condemnation originated from having lived among LDS, I realized that I have a forgiving God, even when among unforgiving people. Of course, distancing myself from them played a great part in my spiritual growth. I was stuck with becoming judgmental within AA, because of that cultural influence. Sounds like a paradox, but not in my mind.

Therefore, knowing something about the cultural climate in which Coptic lives and works, I can understand where he is coming from. LDS tend to sabotage AA, because it competes with their solution.

It took years of sobriety before I was ready to process “the rest of the story.”

 

[Andrew1980]

venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/2011/01/12-steps-and-catholicism.html

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, in a previous post on this tread you agreed with me (and Peter Kreeft rather your realize it or not) that the soul, our human soul, can become sick.

You also took the word “addict” and gave us the Latin definition and the meaning thereof.

Coptic, can you tell us what the word “disease” means using Latin as you did with “addict”?

Mgray,

You are confused. The word addict as used is understood via its meaning to be slave. The notion of diseased is not a word in a book. How many years did you spend studying disease, ie

Robbins textbook…Pathologic Basis of Disease
Harrison Intenal Medicine…the compendium of disease

What is your point. You come to someone that knows, understands, and has diagnosed disease asking for a definition.

Disease as a definition you can look up…in the end the question is always going to be how is this disease classified…

Genetic
Infectious
Environmental
Endocrine
Metabolic

and then the disease is studied

Epidemiology

You are approaching your desire to prove a point in a way that makes sense to only you.

I am not your slave to do your bidding to prove a point.

If you want a logical rationale understanding of anything then approach it in a rational and logical way. I am the expert and not you. What is your question? Go look up the definition and tell me what your point is.

 

[CopticChristian]

Of course we are all sinners; no doubting that. But I am convinced that I cannot handle lust like you can, assuming you aren’t an addict yourself. Perhaps you can’t understand this since you are not one. If you understand the process of neuropathways, why can you not accept that someone such as myself has been able to damage their neuropathways to the extent that I can no longer handle triggers to those neuropathways like a normal person? Clearly, our brain is now wired differently. This makes me more likely to go down sinful paths if I indulge in lust compared to the average person. Its seems pretty straight forward. If you have never experienced this, maybe you just have a hard time accepting it.

Do you spend time with the word? Of course
Do you think of the word? Of course
Is the word close to you? Of course
Do you believe that the word can change all this? Of course.

I ask you to spend some time listening to the Confessions of Augustine…free…do this and tell me if you feel like you are the only sinner in the world - Who says I am the only sinner in the world? I am well aware of St Augustine. I would guess every addict is.

Your missing the main points.

1. You seem to think it is a negative to be labeled an “addict”. In fact it isn’t. It simply an acknowledgement that we have damaged ourselves through our own behavior to a point that we could no longer function normally around a certain behavior.
2. You seem to think curing our compulsion is the main point of the 12 Steps. This is not true. Curing our compulsions would likely hinder our progress on the Christian journey if that is the only thing we addressed. We must learn to turn our wills and lives over to Christ. The 12 Steps helps us to do that. Everyone must learn this if they are to find true peace and happiness in this life. Removing my lust addiction, before I found the need to completely turn my life over to Christ would have been considered “successful” recovery in the eyes of the world and medical journals. It would have been a false and hollow recovery as it would have missed out on the ONLY important aspect of true spiritual recovery and that is turning our lives to Christ.
3. Why would I want to be “normal”? As you define it. What does it matter if I believe myself to be an addict or not? Should I proclaim myself as normal so that I can once again entertain small amounts of lustful thoughts and actions??? So in pride as to not immediately flee these temptations as I ought to do as an addict or not? As addicts, we know the pain and hurt that we have put our family and friends through by living a sinful life. Its part of looking at the wreckage of the past and working towards amending our lives. How arrogant would we have to be to declare ourselves cured and then once again resume the riskful behavior that put us into our addictions in the first place? How uncharitiable would that be? An alcoholic who has spent 10 years in the bottle, gets recover for a few years and then decides that he will starting drinking after meals again, after all the hurt he has caused his family? Why not continue abstaining, if in nothing else, penance and respect for those he has hurt?
4. You seem to believe the 12 Steps push people away from Christ and his Church, however, I think you are way off. If anything, people are coming into the church due to working the 12 steps. In my experience, as people search for the honest truth they find Christ and his Church. You seem to think that the 12 Steps is designed to pull people out of the church, but I would guess this is far from being true.
5. Addicts like being in recovery! It is not a pain or a toil. Its a fellowship of Christians helping each other on the journey. You seem to think going to meetings is burdensome, it isn’t. Its a great part of my week.

Andrew,

You believe you brain is damaged. If you believe it was wired one way you refuse to accept that it can be rewired. This is faulty thinking that denies reality of what is known.

The only damage I see is the inablity to answer the questions I asked and instead preach to wonders of what you found that others do not find.

It does not work for all in fact AA/12 steps has a miserable rate and in fact less than a 5% success rate that statistics prove you as wrong and yet you provide testimonial of experience. That is great. I pray that those that lurk finding themselves wondering why those they know do not find success know that it is because that it is the 37/48 worst method known for apporaching problems.

Facts are facts.

 

[CopticChristian]

As a former AA, I agree with the concept of alcoholism as an illness. My graduation came upon the realization that I by then hated the feeling of being drunk. And was troubled with repeating dreams of having had that one taste of alcohol with no negative consequences and breaking many years of sobriety.

When people struggle with feelings of condemnation, and believe that God will never forgive them, reframing the concept of sin (sickness of the soul) into something like “mistake” can free the individual from being spiritually stuck. My case was more complex; once I discovered that this feeling of condemnation originated from having lived among LDS, I realized that I have a forgiving God, even when among unforgiving people. Of course, distancing myself from them played a great part in my spiritual growth. I was stuck with becoming judgmental within AA, because of that cultural influence. Sounds like a paradox, but not in my mind.

Therefore, knowing something about the cultural climate in which Coptic lives and works, I can understand where he is coming from. LDS tend to sabotage AA, because it competes with their solution.

It took years of sobriety before I was ready to process “the rest of the story.”

Jerusha,

AA/12 steps/faux-christianity/religion=disease model.

Why wouldn’t you accept that it is an illness. This would be tantamount to saying…“as a former Muslim…I agree that there is one God Allah and Mohammed is his prophet”…

I agree that God is necessary but the world unfortunately do not go to God for help and they need help too. It isn’t a disease. People need alternatives until they are ready for God and you can’t do the work of God as the Protestant world believes forcing God down their throat. That is why people fail. Protestant thought is " I will save you at all cost even if you resist"?

The cultural climate I live and exist in is the world.

 

[CopticChristian]

venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/2011/01/12-steps-and-catholicism.html

Andrew,

One priest does not make for approval or acceptance of anything.

Jesus Christ the bearer of the Water of LIfe suggests dialogue over this issue…this is not from a priest but from a commission…

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CULTURE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE

JESUS CHRIST
THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE

A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”

The study is a provisional report. It is the fruit of the common reflection of the Working Group on New Religious Movements, composed of staff members of different dicasteries of the Holy See: the Pontifical Councils for Culture and for Interreligious Dialogue (which are the principal redactors for this project), the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

2.2.3. Health: Golden living

There is a remarkable variety of approaches for promoting holistic health, some derived from ancient cultural traditions, whether religious or esoteric, others connected with the psychological theories developed in Esalen during the years 1960-1970. Advertising connected with New Age covers a wide range of practices as acupuncture, biofeedback, chiropractic, kinesiology, homeopathy, iridology, massage and various kinds of “bodywork” (such as orgonomy, Feldenkrais, reflexology, Rolfing, polarity massage, therapeutic touch etc.), meditation and visualisation, nutritional therapies, psychic healing, various kinds of herbal medicine, healing by crystals, metals, music or colours, reincarnation therapies and, finally, twelve-step programmes and self-help groups.(
**

2.4. “Inhabitants of myth rather than history”(43)?: New Age and culture**

“Basically, the appeal of the New Age has to do with the culturally stimulated interest in the self, its value, capacities and problems. Whereas traditionalised religiosity, with its hierarchical organization, is well-suited for the community, detraditionalized spirituality is well-suited for the individual. The New Age is ‘of’ the self in that it facilitates celebration of what it is to be and to become; and ‘for’ the self in that by differing from much of the mainstream, it is positioned to handle identity problems generated by conventional forms of life”.(44)

– New Age imports Eastern religious practices piecemeal and re- interprets them to suit Westerners; **this involves a rejection of the language of sin and salvation, replacing it with the morally neutral language of addiction and recovery./**QUOTE]
The Vatican thought it was worth discussing and what one priest found and what one priest did did not dissuade the Vatican from suggesting discussion and therefore it should be discussed as I have done.

This site may help some that see some semblance of Catholicity and they should for after all anyone that looked at Methodism would see Catholicity there. You may as well send people to the Methodist Church and start a blog about the Catholicity of Methodism.

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew,

You believe you brain is damaged. If you believe it was wired one way you refuse to accept that it can be rewired. This is faulty thinking that denies reality of what is known.

The only damage I see is the inablity to answer the questions I asked and instead preach to wonders of what you found that others do not find.

It does not work for all in fact AA/12 steps has a miserable rate and in fact less than a 5% success rate that statistics prove you as wrong and yet you provide testimonial of experience. That is great. I pray that those that lurk finding themselves wondering why those they know do not find success know that it is because that it is the 37/48 worst method known for apporaching problems.

Facts are facts.

If you read my posts above, I made it clear that I think my brain can be rewired. In addition, I did answer your questions, but apparently you are not reading my posts, but only replying to what you think I may be saying.

No one says that the 12 Steps is the only way in recovery. Please read my posts before assuming that the statement I just wrote said ‘The 12 Steps is the only way for recovery’. You seem to be defining success as the ability of the addict to stop their problematic behaviors. This to me is NOT succress. I would have been worse off, as would most people, if I would have been able to address my lust compulsion without addressing my underlying causes of my sins (pride, selfishness, etc). I have stated NUMEROUS times on these threads that ANY good recovery program should have the goal of bringing people to submit to the will the Christ as its primary objective. This should be the goal of ALL humans, not just those in addiction. Without Christ we will never find the peace and serenity that ALL humans seek. Therefore any recovery process that does not guide us to our true place of peace and happiness is not true recovery. If I could have taken a magic pill that would have forever prevented me from lusting, it would have been disasterous. Sure I would not have lusted and in your apparent definitely this method would have been successful, but if you take a step back and look at the big picture, the magic pill recovery method is hollow at best and is not true recovery. True recovery is obtained through a conversion to Christ and a surrender to his will.

My guess is other recovery methods help people find the path to Christ as well, it is likely not just the 12 Steps. However, any real recovery model should have at its center finding Christ. As St Augustine has said, “We are restless until we rest in you”. This is very true. Finding recovery from a habitual sin means nothing if at the same time we don’t find the peace that Christ provides.

Finally, I understand that for some reason you are clearly biased against the 12 Steps. I would propose the question on whether or not you believe recovery without Christ is possible?

 

[CopticChristian]

If you read my posts above, I made it clear that I think my brain can be rewired. In addition, I did answer your questions, but apparently you are not reading my posts, but only replying to what you think I may be saying.

No one says that the 12 Steps is the only way in recovery. Please read my posts before assuming that the statement I just wrote said ‘The 12 Steps is the only way for recovery’. **You seem to be defining success as the ability of the addict to stop their problematic behaviors. This to me is NOT succress. **I would have been worse off, as would most people, if I would have been able to address my lust compulsion without addressing my underlying causes of my sins (pride, selfishness, etc). I have stated NUMEROUS times on these threads that ANY good **recovery program **should have the goal of bringing people to submit to the will the Christ as its primary objective. This should be the goal of ALL humans, not just those in addiction. Without Christ we will never find the peace and serenity that ALL humans seek. Therefore any recovery process that does not guide us to our true place of peace and happiness is not true recovery. If I could have taken a magic pill that would have forever prevented me from lusting, it would have been disasterous. Sure I would not have lusted and in your apparent definitely this method would have been successful, but if you take a step back and look at the big picture, the magic pill recovery method is hollow at best and is not true recovery. True recovery is obtained through a conversion to Christ and a surrender to his will.

My guess is other recovery methods help people find the path to Christ as well, it is likely not just the 12 Steps. However, any real recovery model should have at its center finding Christ. As St Augustine has said, “We are restless until we rest in you”. This is very true. Finding recovery from a habitual sin means nothing if at the same time we don’t find the peace that Christ provides.

Finally, I understand that for some reason you are clearly biased against the 12 Steps. I would propose the question on whether or not you believe recovery without Christ is possible?

Andrew,

You did not answer this…

tell me

Do you spend time with the word?
Do you think of the word?
Is the word close to you?
Do you believe that the word can change all this?

As we believe, so we think and act…in order to change an action it is important to change the belief and thinking so you are incorrect that I am looking at behavior alone.

Your mind is focused on recovery that bespeaks of addiction/recovery and that is not necessarily the world understanding and exists only in the disease model paradigm. There is Habit/resolution as an alternative and you cannot accept that as you write “recovery programs”…there are many ways to address the problem that do not include the notion of recovery because there is nothing to recover from…just change.

Your notion of recovery model is again focused on concrete, limited thinking that addiction/disease/recovery is the universal approach to a problem. Problem/resolution, Habit/change…you are limited in your view of a problem.

I believe that change is always possible.

I am biased against failure and the statistical reality that what is proposed as something that is effective is not and those that are in this paradigm refuse to accept reality. It has no better than a 5% success rate or a 95% failure rate, it ranks 37/48 when compared to better methods that work.

If you have strep throat, consequences may be endocarditis, glomerulonephritis and Penicillin is the best treatment unless you are allergic. Why would I recommend lip balm because someone swares by it or alternative medicine like accupuncture that has a failure rate of 95% because someone that did it got better?

I believe that Christ is necessary for the world but I can’t force Him down their throats.