AA

[TheRealJuliane]

Excuse me for sarcasm, and please don’t think that I am opposed to your way of thinking. So, if alcoholism isn’t a disease, insurance won’t pay for helping people address those problems, and only the wealthy, who can afford such programs will profit, and they are those whose lives are not so dysfunctional that they can’t even hold a job, that will boost your recovery numbers.

I agree, some of those who can get recovery in AA are so ignorant of the fact that each person is an individual that they end up emotionally abusing those who continue to have problems. My core problem is one that is denied by the larger society, because they refuse to believe that this country is as sick as I see it. Just the problems in the Republican party today, the day the world is supposed to end , are enough to illustrate my point. Sick religion, and prosperity theology.

Please, let’s not let this thread degrade into politics! I could say the same thing, “Just the problems in the Democrat party today, the day the world is supposed to end, are enough to illustrate my point.” Stay focused on the subject please.

 

[Jerusha]

LOL. I just came back from brushing my teeth. Any alternatives must be low-cost, and available to everyone, regardless of SES, race, religion, etc. How do you propose that? Given that AA IS low cost.

How about that for reframing the question?

 

[CopticChristian]

Please, let’s not let this thread degrade into politics! I could say the same thing, “Just the problems in the Democrat party today, the day the world is supposed to end, are enough to illustrate my point.” Stay focused on the subject please.

RJ,

The world will not end today nor did Y2K become a reality. I am concerned about the 95% that AA does not work for and those with loved ones failing in AA…when a loved one continues to drug or drink in spite of AA it is not the person that is the problem. They just need help. The AA crowd unfortunately believes that the person is the problem and not the program. There are many examples of people that cannot find resolution and AA disciples are of no help. If you did not like my previous links, you won’t like these either.

Is AA good or bad…I say it is effective for 5% and if that is an indictment, well Ok…but look here…

Sites for the other 95% that find AA of no use…

addictioninfo.org/articles/3523/1/Nancy-S-Handmaker/Page1.html

soberrecovery.com/Glossary/12_Step_Alternatives.html

candaceplattor.com/articles/the_16_steps.htm

soberaustin.com/12stepalternatives.htm

aanottheonlyway.com/

Sites for those that believe that they need to be deprogrammed from AA…deprogramming

morerevealed.com/aadep/index_frames.html

hamsnetwork.wordpress.com/category/aa-deprogramming/

youtube.com/watch?v=f6P32AhHfws

youtube.com/watch?v=qhVxzTgF3u0

Lurkers should know that these sites exist. Concerning

Addiction and Recovery…

Sin and Salvation…

The Church is concerned with Sin and Salvation as am I…Addiction is something that many need help with and 5% find success in AA…there are many other ways to get help.

 

[Jerusha]

Coptic, she is just lacking a sense of humor.

Now, about the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ???

 

[CopticChristian]

LOL. I just came back from brushing my teeth. Any alternatives must be low-cost, and available to everyone, regardless of SES, race, religion, etc. How do you propose that? Given that AA IS low cost.

How about that for reframing the question?

Jerusha,

There are many low cost alternatives available regardless of SES, race, religion, etc…brushing your teeth may aid your search and these alternatives do not require you to live a life believing you have a disease that isn’t.

 

[Jerusha]

Ease off-- I no longer have a disease. I am a normal non-drinker. What about others who fail to get to that stage?

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, she is just lacking a sense of humor.

Now, about the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ???

Jerusha,

Now you are on to something, the ICD-9 and CPT are about making money and diseasing America by the AMA was about making money. Disease everyone so that Physicians can make money in rehab and counseling for drugs and drinking. You are correct. You may want to read…the diseasing of America…

 

[CopticChristian]

Please, let’s not let this thread degrade into politics! I could say the same thing, “Just the problems in the Democrat party today, the day the world is supposed to end, are enough to illustrate my point.” Stay focused on the subject please.

RJ,

I did not start this thread. I have experience, knowledge, and have researched this topic ad nauseum prior to this thread being started. My intent was to discover how to make it work. As a Phyisician I tackle everything so that I understand it and can teach it. I had good intentions when I took this study underway. The study unfortunately did not end up as I planned as I was unable to swallow things that are not true.

I am content to take the dialogue to Sin and Salvation…I have asked and been ignored.

What is the role of Theologic virtues in human virtues and the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit?

I asked this of Andrew, Mgray…and I get no response…their minds are focused on their program while proclaiming to be better Catholics…all I want is for everyone to be a better Catholic…

can we go there, in the Spirit of Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life…

Morally neutral Addiction/Recovery

vs

Sin/Salvation…

 

[CopticChristian]

Ease off-- I no longer have a disease. I am a normal non-drinker. What about others who fail to get to that stage?

Jerusha,

How can you fail to get to a place if you never had a disease to begin with?

 

[Jerusha]

candaceplattor.com/articles/the_16_steps.htm Now, this is interesting, and parallels my development since becoming an inactive AA. The focus is not on quitting drinking, but on encouraging people to explore their interests and be an agent of change, addressing my areas of dissatisfaction with society. For me, the internet-- low cost was exactly what I needed, to decrease my dependency on people, and encourage my individuality. Actually a VR counselor pushed me in this direction. Not in our tradition, but one that I respect, as my book shows.

I didn’t see your post, but this addresses it.

 

[CopticChristian]

candaceplattor.com/articles/the_16_steps.htm Now, this is interesting, and parallels my development since becoming an inactive AA. The focus is not on quitting drinking, but on encouraging people to explore their interests and be an agent of change, addressing my areas of dissatisfaction with society. For me, the internet-- low cost was exactly what I needed, to decrease my dependency on people, and encourage my individuality. Actually a VR counselor pushed me in this direction. Not in our tradition, but one that I respect, as my book shows.

I didn’t see your post, but this addresses it.

Jerusha,

This is New Age. As you might imagine all the New Age people that believe that they are souls, interrelated, part of the Universe, Karma, etc…these people may find help here and more than likely are never going to go to AA. This may aid them. I have no knowledge of the success rate. The fact that it exists is a testament that AA will not attract everyone and in all likelyhood based on knowing that AA is no better than spontaneous resolution…this approach may have exactly the same outcome, no better than a 5% success rate with disciples that tout it as the best ever. No harm, no foul.

Read the testimonials…sound familiar?

 

[Jerusha]

Perhaps the foundation of that one is new age, but, in terms of the social gospel, it can be adapted. I remember some Rorschach stuff from grad school-- the use of white space, seeing things where there is nothing–, either rebellion, or constructive creativity. People often don’t fit the mold, and react with drinking, depression, etc, because they feel themselves to be helpless. I find myself freer when I have a more contemplative lifestyle, and don’t have to conform to an often dysfunctional social environment and world.

I just ordered that book.

 

[Mgray82]

Can someone (besides Coptic, even though he’s going to reply anyway) please explain to me what point Coptic is trying to make with the whole “sin/salvation” and “Methodism” thing?

…completely lost…

I’ll be sure to bring up the fact that we’re all Methodists at our next AA meeting at my parish.

 

[CopticChristian]

Perhaps the foundation of that one is new age, but, in terms of the social gospel, it can be adapted. I remember some Rorschach stuff from grad school-- the use of white space, seeing things where there is nothing–, either rebellion, or constructive creativity. People often don’t fit the mold. I find myself freer when I have a more contemplative lifestyle, and don’t have to conform to an often dysfunctional social environment and world.

I just ordered that book.

Jerusha,

What book?

Dysfunctional thinking is at the heart of addictive behavior. It persists. Everyone Deletes, Distorts and Generalizes to some extent. What I see in those that have addictive behavior is exagerration of these…you will see it when you read…

Always
Never
Most
Works for Everyone
Best Program

You have to take a step back and say…

Always…no exceptions?
Never…so this is always true?
Most…who is most?
Works for everyone…do you know everyone?
Best Program…for who, based on what?

You do see deletions, as noted when facts are presented, they are just ignored…so while someone may say they are not drinking, drugging, lusting, their minds remain dysfunctional with the exagerrated Deletion, Distortion, Generalization and have difficulty with Self Reflection and observing rather than experiencing thoughts.

 

[Jerusha]

Can someone (besides Coptic, even though he’s going to reply anyway) please explain to me what point Coptic is trying to make with the whole “sin/salvation” and “Methodism” thing?

…completely lost…

I’ll be sure to bring up the fact that we’re all Methodists at our next AA meeting at my parish.

Aww, you have a parish meeting, don’t worry about it. His main thrust is that Catholics going to meetings not specific to a religious tradition are vulnerable to de-conversion. I have seen it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Can someone (besides Coptic, even though he’s going to reply anyway) please explain to me what point Coptic is trying to make with the whole “sin/salvation” and “Methodism” thing?

…completely lost…

I’ll be sure to bring up the fact that we’re all Methodists at our next AA meeting at my parish.

Mgray,

This is appropriate for the dyfunctional thinking I was explaining to Jerusha…who knows what I am thinking but me…to ask someone else what I am thinking is dysfunctional and part of the remnant of the dysfunctional thought process of the addictive behavior that took you to AA…

If you have a direct question in the future, ask the person, rather than someone else. Mind reading is part of the dysfunctional addictive mind. Thank you for that example.

would you like to discuss the theologic virtues and see where that goes?

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

This is appropriate for the dyfunctional thinking I was explaining to Jerusha…who knows what I am thinking but me…to ask someone else what I am thinking is dysfunctional and part of the remnant of the dysfunctional thought process of the addictive behavior that took you to AA…

If you have a direct question in the future, ask the person, rather than someone else. Mind reading is part of the dysfunctional addictive mind. Thank you for that example.

would you like to discuss the theologic virtues and see where that goes?

Coptic, you suffer from “lastworditis”.

Is that located in your medical books?

 

[Mgray82]

Aww, you have a parish meeting, don’t worry about it. His main thrust is that Catholics going to meetings not specific to a religious tradition are vulnerable to de-conversion. I have seen it.

I do enjoy the parish meeting.

Absolutely…

On the flip side, people (like me) are also capable of conversion to The Church in AA.

…so to me, the more AA in Catholic Churches, the better for evangelization (especially when there’s a priest present in my parish

 

[Mgray82]

Lastwordism is a disease.

One of the ways to combat this is the deflation of ego…(hint, hint)

 

[Jerusha]

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one, members one of another.
6 And having gifts different, according to the grace that is given us, whether prophecy, according
to the proportion of faith,
7 Or ministry, in ministering: or he that teacheth, in doctrine,
8 He that exhorteth in exhorting; he that giveth with simplicity; he that ruleth with solicitude, he
that sheweth mercy with cheerfulness.Romans 12

4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit:
5 And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.
8 To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of
knowledge, according to the same Spirit.
9 To another, faith in the same Spirit: to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit:
10 To another, the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of
spirits: to another, divers kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.
11 *But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he
will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members: and all the members of the body, whereas
they are many, yet are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond
or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.
14 For the body also is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: is it, therefore, not of
the body?
16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: is it, therefore, not
of the body?
17 If the whole body were the eye: where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing:
where would be the smelling?
18 But now God hath set the members, every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body?
20 But now there are many members, indeed, yet one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help: nor again the head to the feet: I have
no need of you.
22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more
necessary:
23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, upon these we bestow
more abundant honour: and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness.
24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving the more
abundant honour to that which wanted it,
25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for
another.
26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory,
all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.
28 *And God indeed hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly
teachers, after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tonguetongues,
interpretations of speeches.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers?
30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do
all interpret?
31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew to you a yet more excellent way.I Cor. 12

MGray:
But you are talking about a departure from the Traditions. See?