AA

[Mgray82]

I know that a lot of a.a. fanatics claim if someone fails in a.a. it is never the programs fault. They just claim the person did not work the program right. Or if you quit without a.a. it means you were never a alcoholic to begin with. If I hear a a.a. member atleast admit that a.a. is not the only way and may not even be the best way, I know they are atleast not fanatical.

Not sure what your definition of fanatical is…and I’m certainly not saying some people don’t have those thoughts. But I can assure you this alcoholic does not think those things, nor does anyone in my close network of AA friends.

AA is not the only way to quit drinking, and it says that in the Big Book.

 

[CopticChristian]

Not sure what your definition of fanatical is…and I’m certainly not saying some people don’t have those thoughts. But I can assure you this alcoholic does not think those things, nor does anyone in my close network of AA friends.

AA is not the only way to quit drinking, and it says that in the Big Book.

Mgray,

This is an accurate assesment of your experience. You will agree that when considering ways to quit drinking, you have to quit drinking before you do anything. The means that you then choose to approach life after that could be other than AA.

You have to quit to work anything that works if you work it for it to work.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So what works if you work it? To keep coming back?

 

[CopticChristian]

So what works if you work it? To keep coming back?

Gary,

That is the whole point…

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research

Research, science, everyone begs science to do something and here it has and it is ignored. AA/12 steps ranks 37/48 of researched based approaches…the top 5 are listed here…In the NPR segment it is noted that Interventions don’t work. The representative from Hazeldon says Residential Rehab should be thought of as a Trauma center and most approaches that are outpatient based are prefered. They are not necessarily patients however that is moot. What works is CRAFT but who knows this and who talks about this. Television has the show “Intervention” and we have Dr. Drew. Who sees or hears what works?

Brief interventions
Motivational enhancement
GABA agonist (Acamprosate)
Community Reinforcement
Self-change manual (Bibliotherapy)
Opiate antagonist (Naltrexone)
Behavioral self-control training

from post 634

Consider a statement in the Handbook of Alcoholism Treatment: Effective Alternatives (3rd ed., 2003, edited by Hester & Miller), in a chapter entitled “What Works? A Summary of Alcohol Treatment Outcome Research,” by Miller, Wilbourne and Hettema. They state that “the negative correlation between scientific evidence and treatment-as-usual remains striking, and could hardly be larger if one intentionally constructed treatment programs from those approaches with the least evidence of efficacy.” The 2nd edition of this book (1995) reached the same conclusion.

My attempts to point this out was summarized in post 634 noting that someone else sees what I see…

You see what you want to see and if you come from a 12 step orientation, part of that orientation is to denigrate anything else and in fact if anyone fails in this approach they are considered to have a problem, not the approach.

Facts are facts, reality is reality…

What works is what works and AA has no better than a 10% success rate.

 

[Mgray82]

Gary,

That is the whole point…

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

Research, science, everyone begs science to do something and here it has and it is ignored. AA/12 steps ranks 37/48 of researched based approaches…the top 5 are listed here…In the NPR segment it is noted that Interventions don’t work. The representative from Hazeldon says Residential Rehab should be thought of as a Trauma center and most approaches that are outpatient based are prefered. They are not necessarily patients however that is moot. What works is CRAFT but who knows this and who talks about this. Television has the show “Intervention” and we have Dr. Drew. Who sees or hears what works?

from post 634

My attempts to point this out was summarized in post 634 noting that someone else sees what I see…

You see what you want to see and if you come from a 12 step orientation, part of that orientation is to denigrate anything else and in fact if anyone fails in this approach they are considered to have a problem, not the approach.

Facts are facts, reality is reality…

What works is what works and AA has no better than a 10% success rate.

I really wish you’d stay away from percentages. They really don’t do this argument any good from your position.

For example; what’s the percentage of Catholics who believe in the real presence?

Parallels the same being how this is a matter of faith since AA is a “spiritual program”.

 

[CopticChristian]

I really wish you’d stay away from percentages. They really don’t do this argument any good from your position.

For example; what’s the percentage of Catholics who believe in the real presence?

Parallels the same being how this is a matter of faith since AA is a “spiritual program”.

Mgray,

I understand your wish and desire. I cannot accomodate you.

You suggest that there is an argument. I see none.

There are those that ascribe to addiction/disease and that is an unproved theory. If it is a disease then your paradigm forces the issue. Cancer is a disease. How do you get it? What is the epidemiology? What is the Pathophysiology? What is the natural history? How is it transmitted? How do you treat it? What is the success in treatments? Are there many treatments or just one?

The paradigm of diseases forces the questions. I don’t call it a disease. If you want no percentages then step out of the disease model.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, has revealed truths. Some do not accept revealed truths. It has grown to over a billion in the World.

AA was founded by a man/men that disguised religion as a program and have no revealed truths, some accept the precepts, some do not, many fall away and never go back, in fact the majority that start in a year fail to return. Those that stay adapt a point of view that is incongruent with reality and then plead against reality as you do.

If you don’t want percentages then tell those that study the process to aid those that want help.

Those that want help want to know what the percentage of success is for methods that work and those that don’t work.

Dismiss yourself from the discussion if you don’t want percentages and be happy to say you have no urge to drink today, you found success in AA however your experience does not translate to the world experience and those that fail in AA should look elsewhere and not be ridiculed as if something is wrong with them and not the program.

Ok…

 

[Mgray82]

Mgray,

I understand your wish and desire. I cannot accomodate you.

You suggest that there is an argument. I see none.

There are those that ascribe to addiction/disease and that is an unproved theory. If it is a disease then your paradigm forces the issue. Cancer is a disease. How do you get it? What is the epidemiology? What is the Pathophysiology? What is the natural history? How is it transmitted? How do you treat it? What is the success in treatments? Are there many treatments or just one?

The paradigm of diseases forces the questions. I don’t call it a disease. If you want no percentages then step out of the disease model.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, has revealed truths. Some do not accept revealed truths. It has grown to over a billion in the World.

AA was founded by a man/men that disguised religion as a program and have no revealed truths, some accept the precepts, some do not, many fall away and never go back, in fact the majority that start in a year fail to return. Those that stay adapt a point of view that is incongruent with reality and then plead against reality as you do.

If you don’t want percentages then tell those that study the process to aid those that want help.

Those that want help want to know what the percentage of success is for methods that work and those that don’t work.

Dismiss yourself from the discussion if you don’t want percentages and be happy to say you have no urge to drink today, you found success in AA however your experience does not translate to the world experience and those that fail in AA should look elsewhere and not be ridiculed as if something is wrong with them and not the program.

Ok…

I don’t measure faith in numbers.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Not sure what your definition of fanatical is…and I’m certainly not saying some people don’t have those thoughts. But I can assure you this alcoholic does not think those things, nor does anyone in my close network of AA friends.

AA is not the only way to quit drinking, and it says that in the Big Book.

I have met good people in a.a. too. I know not all a.a. members are weird.

Well to me, if a person makes a.a. their religion, they are fanatical. If a person thinks a.a. is a God given perfect program that can never be wrong, instead of a man made program with its own flaws, then I consider that fanatical. I was court ordered to a.a. for 3 years, I heard it all, including “Us Alcoholics are Gods chosen people” and even people believing the Big Book is prophetic or God inspired. I could go on forever

Yes, maybe the big book says that aa in not the only way to quit drinking. But there are those people who say that those who quit without a.a. either were never really alcoholics or that even though they stopped drinking that they will still be miserable and exibit all the same characteristics as a alcoholic just because they quit without a.a… I have been to countless meeting and I have heard that a lot.

I know not everyone is like that, but… just some of the things I did not like about a.a.

 

[allroads]

When most people come to AA they are spiritually dead. Despair is overwhelming. The damage caused brings terrible guilt and shame. You believe there is no hope. The only comfort is found in a bottle. Or any drug of choice.

My experience was to look for complete and utter emotional coma. When I got there I refused to believe in God. The thought of paying for my sins in the afterlife, eternally, left me refusing to allow any grace to enter. I was in my mid twenties, my wife walked out with my 2 month old son. I walked into a nearby park and went to hide like a wounded animal. It was forty degrees and raining. I passed out. In that desolate park with no one around, I was awoken. There were no people or animals nearby. I should have never walked out of there.
Later, much later I realized that was Grace.

I found a phone booth and had a family member pick me up. He took me to the hospital. During five days of detox I was exposed to tapes by Father Martin. It was amazing, I understood immediately that God could save me, and my family, If only I let him. It took several years to come back to the church. It could never have happened with out me accepting God’s help. Father Martin told a parable of his own. During a major flood a man sat on his roof stranded. God promised he would. A boat came by to save him, but he refused, saying God would save him. He did the same when a helicopter lowered a rope. The man eventually drowned. He got to heaven and asked God why he broke his promise. God’s reply was, “who do you think sent the boat and the helicopter?”

Now I haven’t had a drink in years. I got on the AA boat figuring God sent me there. I’ve lived a relatively happy life since.

Many people don’t realize AA cannot have an opinion on religion. If it had an opinion on religion, many people would not walk in the door. What works for me may or may not work for you. So many people feel a repulsion for religion. The whole point of AA spirituality is to make the narcissistic egomaniac realize he is not the crown of creation. Then grace can start to work in him.

I’ve sponsored many men over the years. It is very difficult to get some of them to open up to spirituality. Once they allow themselves to open up the gates and let God in, they have a chance to move toward Him in grace. I sponsored a fellow one time and he went back to the Catholic Church. He helped me get back there myself a few years later. Mysterious ways indeed.

I have to admit there are some people who use AA as a hunting ground for women, rides, a room to sleep in. Same as in our church. Same as our jobs, social groups, and sometimes our families.

AA gives hopeless people a chance at hope. I belong to a venerable Matt Talbot group. We go on retreats at Catholic retreat centers. We discuss our sobriety in terms of the Church, often with sobered up priests.

It is, in a strange way, evangelistic In nature. You only keep it by giving the good news to others. People come in the door every day. The apostles preached to many who could not or would not be saved. They still sowed their seed wide. ( I don’t see us as a literal comparison, it is a model to follow.) I am still am an active member. Watching a human train wreck get his life together, to go from despair to hope to an active healthy life is amazingly rewarding. To see families repair the damage of chronic alcoholism brings tears to the eye. Jesus did his best work sitting down with sinners, the broken and the lost.

 

[Biblepoe]

The last thing you want to tell someone who is struggling with additions is that they are powerless. However, the very first step of the 12 steps is, “We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable.”

 

[Izdaari]

I think AA is a very good thing for those who need it. Thankfully, I have not been one of those. Nor have I been Catholic.

 

[Mgray82]

The last thing you want to tell someone who is struggling with additions is that they are powerless.

Why is that the “last” thing you want to tell them?

 

[allroads]

When I realized I could not exercise any power (control) over alcohol, I was freed from it’s power. I had to put in the hard work of the 12 steps, after detoxing for a week. I knew if I drank, I lost any ability to control my mind, my actions, or my words. As a young father of a 2 month old, I knew I could not be a father if I began to drink again. Without AA I don’t know how I have stayed sober.

When I went to detox I was asked, “Are you an alcoholic?” I said “No, I just drink a lot, and when I drink, I get some crazy ideas in my head. So if you can give me some pills to straighten out my thoughts. I should be fine.” I was told, We think we can help you. Alcoholics are generally a paradox, egomaniacs with an inferiority complex. When an alcoholic gets sober, he goes though the five stages of grief very quickly. I have always believed the program is divinely inspired.

In the US there is a rather large treatment facility, run by the Church. It is exclusively used by Catholic priests. There are AA meetings, exclusively for Catholic priests. That’s why I keep coming back.

 

[CopticChristian]

The last thing you want to tell someone who is struggling with additions is that they are powerless. However, the very first step of the 12 steps is, “We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable.”

Poe,

Look at what is said here by researchers…What is practiced has no basis in science or what is effective…

"We still have a long way to go in changing stan¬dard practice. In an earlier narrative review, Miller and Hester (1986a) observed that **although the scien-rific literature points to a list of treatment approaches with reasonable evidence of positive benefit, this list overlaps little with those components often employed in U.S. alcoholism treatment programs. **

The same pattern remains evident in this review. Indeed, one must read halfway down Table 2.3 before encounter¬ing the first modality (process group psychotherapy) with anything like common usage as a component of standard practice, at least in the United States. The generic “Minnesota model” program that continues 10 dominate U.S. addictions treatment is broadly characterized by a milieu advocating a 12-step phi¬losophy, typically augmented with group psychother¬apy, educational lectures and films, AA meetings, and relatively unspecified general alcoholism coun¬seling, often of a confrontational nature (Cook, 1988). Some programs have added components such as relaxation training, CENAPS-model relapse coun¬seling, and family therapy (typically nonbehavioral in style). To fill in the complete set of treatment methods with the least evidence of effectiveness (Table 2.3). one need add only videotape self-confrontation and a host of failed medications. The negative correlation between scientific evidence and treatment-as-usual remains striking, and could hardly be larger if one intentionally constructed treatment programs from those approaches with the least evidence of efficacy."

 

[CopticChristian]

Why is that the “last” thing you want to tell them?

Mgray,

Because it is not true and in God all things are possible and God expects you to do whatever it is you need to do to change…you are not powerless over a bottle of liquid.

 

[Kush]

Here is the problem with AA (and its a greater problem than just something within that organization) - its a global problem.

AA tries to label people with alcholol addition as “alchololics” and borderline call this a disease.

There is no such thing as alchololism. The reality is this. Alcholol is a drug. Just like any other. Legalities do not change what it is. its a drug, like coke, meth, and many others. Scientists are now seeing that is probably one of the worst out there.

So, in the end, an alcololic is really just someone who drank enough of this substance, and now is addicted to it… (its a drug, its addictive).

My problem with AA is, they are trying to somehow separate the fact that alcholol is a drug. those who become addicted to it, simply need to kick thier addiction. what scares me is how this orgainzation derails that bit of reality… so kids today will hear of alcolhism, and what not… instead they should simply hear. “its a drug, its addictive, avoid it if you can”.

 

[petitfleur]

Thanks for the recommendation. I just want to put it all behind me. I dont care to read any books about addiction treatment 12 step or otherwise. I know where you are comming from though. I agree. I know that a lot of a.a. fanatics claim if someone fails in a.a. it is never the programs fault. They just claim the person did not work the program right. Or if you quit without a.a. it means you were never a alcoholic to begin with. If I hear a a.a. member atleast admit that a.a. is not the only way and may not even be the best way, I know they are atleast not fanatical.

Sigh.....The Alcoholics Anonymous book states that AA is not the only way. Don't mistake what fanatics say as opposed to what the literature actually states. I think it is a lot like religion in the sense that people cherry pick and twist things, and put their own little spin on things. I am completely aware that there are other ways, as a member of AA though I can only go by my own experience and what worked for me. If someone does not want to work the steps then go somewhere else, but don't go to AA and tell them they are wrong and try to change it all up. I firmly believe AA has lost its success rates because people come in and change it up and twist it to fit what they want it to be. I would be thrilled if AA had some real competition out there. I want all the people who come to my meetings and whine and complain and discuss what they read in the latest hot bestselling self help book someplace to go to discuss these things and leave AA alone!
 Anyway, I earnestly hope all you who are struggling find peace, and a solution that works for you and your loved ones that you can live with. It is an ugly thing to deal with and heartbreaking to watch.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sigh…The Alcoholics Anonymous book states that AA is not the only way. Don’t mistake what fanatics say as opposed to what the literature actually states. I think it is a lot like religion in the sense that people cherry pick and twist things, and put their own little spin on things. I am completely aware that there are other ways, as a member of AA though I can only go by my own experience and what worked for me. If someone does not want to work the steps then go somewhere else, but don’t go to AA and tell them they are wrong and try to change it all up. I firmly believe AA has lost its success rates because people come in and change it up and twist it to fit what they want it to be. I want all the people who come to my meetings and whine and complain and discuss what they read in the latest hot bestselling self help book someplace to go to discuss these things and leave AA alone!
Anyway, I earnestly hope all you who are struggling find peace, and a solution that works for you and your loved ones that you can live with. It is an ugly thing to deal with and heartbreaking to watch.

Petit,

I would be thrilled if AA had some real competition out there.

all you need to do is look…SMART has a better success rate, as does CBT and many other modalities…

If you look in this book you will see that there are many competitors out there that no one knows about and those AA disciples that only know their way disparage…

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Sigh…The Alcoholics Anonymous book states that AA is not the only way. Don’t mistake what fanatics say as opposed to what the literature actually states. I think it is a lot like religion in the sense that people cherry pick and twist things, and put their own little spin on things. I am completely aware that there are other ways, as a member of AA though I can only go by my own experience and what worked for me. If someone does not want to work the steps then go somewhere else, but don’t go to AA and tell them they are wrong and try to change it all up. I firmly believe AA has lost its success rates because people come in and change it up and twist it to fit what they want it to be. I would be thrilled if AA had some real competition out there. I want all the people who come to my meetings and whine and complain and discuss what they read in the latest hot bestselling self help book someplace to go to discuss these things and leave AA alone!
Anyway, I earnestly hope all you who are struggling find peace, and a solution that works for you and your loved ones that you can live with. It is an ugly thing to deal with and heartbreaking to watch.

I have read the “Big book” And it does not say a.a. is the only way. It also does not mention that you need a sponsor. Yet you know as well as I do if you are really into a.a. that a hardcore a.a. member without a sponsor is almost non existant and most say that it is necissary to work the program.

Im glad you feel a.a. worked for you. More power to you. And I dont say that mocking a.a.'s “We are powerless” thing. But I went to a.a. for years and I hated it. I dont have to “leave a.a. alone” I can tell people what I think is wrong with it and point out that more people quit drinking on their own and that a.a. has a horrible success rate. You like a.a. I dont. Likewise, aa members can talk about how if you quit drinking without their program, you will still exibit all the signs of being a alcoholic and you will never really be happy! Doesnt matter. I spent enough time in a.a. that I will express my opinion about it. I spent 3 months in a 12 step hardcore a.a. rehab too. You wanna tell me somthing about a.a. that I dont know? You wanna tell me somthing about the twelve steps I havent heard while living in a twelve step facility and having to live breath and eat AA and the twelve steps for 3 months stright? I earned my right to express my opinion about a.a.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have read the “Big book” And it does not say a.a. is the only way. It also does not mention that you need a sponsor. Yet you know as well as I do if you are really into a.a. that a hardcore a.a. member without a sponsor is almost non existant and most say that it is necissary to work the program.

Im glad you feel a.a. worked for you. More power to you. And I dont say that mocking a.a.'s “We are powerless” thing. But I went to a.a. for years and I hated it. I dont have to “leave a.a. alone” I can tell people what I think is wrong with it and point out that more people quit drinking on their own and that a.a. has a horrible success rate. You like a.a. I dont. Likewise, aa members can talk about how if you quit drinking without their program, you will still exibit all the signs of being a alcoholic and you will never really be happy! Doesnt matter. I spent enough time in a.a. that I will express my opinion about it. I spent 3 months in a 12 step hardcore a.a. rehab too. You wanna tell me somthing about a.a. that I dont know? You wanna tell me somthing about the twelve steps I havent heard while living in a twelve step facility and having to live breath and eat AA and the twelve steps for 3 months stright? I earned my right to express my opinion about a.a.

LB,

The book, the meetings, the rehab facilities are all animals of a different stripe and the only way to know is to go…otherwise you believe that the book says this…the rehab says this…the meetings do this…you might imagine that those that experience such a wonderful success knowing this, believing that it is a panacea, cannot find anyone place that outlines the specifics of what it is you do to get what you need…if this makes sense to you…

then when you have Colon Cancer…you read a book, go to meetings, talk to people with Colon Cancer and figure out how to get better on your own…???