Aaron and the golden calf

[water]

I beg to differ, it is because with their lack of faith they felt it necessary to have visible representation, much like the calfs placed at bethel and dan!

Eerily familiar…

They were lack of faith at the same time they denied God took them out of Egypt - they were worshiping “other gods”.

I know what you are trying to get at for this thread, but it is not going anywhere. The verses say so clear - just don’t make it more complicated than it should be.

 

[NotWorthy]

This comment does not negate any points made, what if your wrong? Do you trust that scripture is the “word of God”
I’ll edit it.

Why of course it is! Do you believe that Scripture is the only thing that is “The word of God” other than, of course, Jesus?

 

[estesbob]

Can you showq us a condemnation of using images to enhance worship. it seems to be quite OK as far as Scripture goes:

for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

*“On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.” *Ezekiel 41:17–18

Th only time you find images condemned is when the people WORSHIP them(ie:-2 Kgs. 18:4.) -which is not the case in the Catholic Church.

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

The council of Trent sums it up nicely-the images are no the problem-it is ascribing with divinity that is the problem.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

They were lack of faith at the same time they denied God took them out of Egypt - they were worshiping “other gods”.

Hai,
Show me how they denied God took them out of Egypt, cause i’d say their is a plethora of scriptural basis to the contrary.
Peace my friend,
simon

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Can you showq us a condemnation of using images to enhance worship. it seems to be quite OK as far as Scripture goes:

for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

*“On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.” *Ezekiel 41:17–18

Your way off base…

Bob, show me how the cherubim was used to enhance worship…

All but the High Priest were forbidden under the pain of death to even enter this room, and the High priest’s every action while in the presence of God was strictly regimented according to the Lord’s own instruction.
And they visited the Holy of holies I believe like once a year.

 

[water]

Hai,
Show me how they denied God took them out of Egypt, cause i’d say their is a plethora of scriptural basis to the contrary.
Peace my friend,
simon

I thought I posted it already, Simon.

Exodus 32:
7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst shew them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

At this point, they believe in “gods” (plural); they did not believe in one true God.

 

[NotWorthy]

Simon, re-read my posts. I show where:
first, Israel says Moses brought them out of Egypt.
second, God declares that Moses brought “His People” (Moses’ people) ouf of Egypt.

God saw that Israel had rejected Him.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Simon, re-read my posts. I show where:
first, Israel says Moses brought them out of Egypt.
second, God declares that Moses brought “His People” (Moses’ people) ouf of Egypt.

God saw that Israel had rejected Him.

So in verse 7 even God denies it was he whom brought them out? it doesn’t add up John.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Not insinuating anything just think this is a worthy read.

When Aaron made the golden calf for the Israelites, the golden calf represented Yahweh, the true God. The Israelites identified this golden calf as the God who brought them out of the land of Egypt (Exodus 32:4) which was Yahweh (Exodus 3:14-17).

And yes, it still angered God!.
Exodus 32:7-35

Exodus 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

god here used is the word 'elohiym, which by the way is used,2606 times and 2347 of those refering to God Almighty…notice how the “s” is added to the hebrew word by the translators, since it is a plural word to start with, but didn’t 2347 other times? Interesting bit of meat there Just because they didn’t use a capital letter in the English version, doesn’t mean anything at all.

So, the evidence is clear. Even the translation in my catholic bible says as such.

FURTHER INSIGHT!
Deuteronomy 4:15-24
15 Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, 16so that **you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure—the likeness of male or female, 17the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. **19And when you look up to the heavens and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, do not be led astray and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven. 20But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron-smelter, out of Egypt, to become a people of his very own possession, as you are now.
21 The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he vowed that I should not cross the Jordan and that I should not enter the good land that the Lord your God is giving for your possession. 22For I am going to die in this land without crossing over the Jordan, but you are going to cross over to take possession of that good land. 23So be careful not to forget the covenant that the Lord your God made with you, and not to make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything that the Lord your God has forbidden you. 24For the Lord your God is a devouring fire, a jealous God.

 

[estesbob]

Your way off base…

Bob, show me how the cherubim was used to enhance worship…

All but the High Priest were forbidden under the pain of death to even enter this room, and the High priest’s every action while in the presence of God was strictly regimented according to the Lord’s own instruction.
And they visited the Holy of holies I believe like once a year.

So we can only uncover our Statues once a year?

I have given you several examples of statues/images being accpepted in the Old Tesyament(the Ezekial verse had nothing to do with the Holy of Holies). You have yet to show us where there is a blanket prohibition other than when the statue is WORSHIPED.

I think the statements I gave you from the Church should dispel any notion that Catholics worship stauues or images. And as I have norted several times there does not appear to be any prohibiotion of them. So wheres the problem?

Every Protestant Church I have ever been in contains a representation of the Cross. Is there somewhere in Scripture thaty says this image is acceptable but all others are forbidden?

 

[estesbob]

FURTHER INSIGHT!
Deuteronomy 4:15-24
15 Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, 16so that **you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure—the likeness of male or female, 17the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. **19And when you look up to the heavens and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, do not be led astray and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven. 20But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron-smelter, out of Egypt, to become a people of his very own possession, as you are now.
21 The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he vowed that I should not cross the Jordan and that I should not enter the good land that the Lord your God is giving for your possession. 22For I am going to die in this land without crossing over the Jordan, but you are going to cross over to take possession of that good land. 23So be careful not to forget the covenant that the Lord your God made with you, and not to make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything that the Lord your God has forbidden you. 24For the Lord your God is a devouring fire, a jealous God.

The key to this is is "Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, 16so that you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure"

---

God is sanctioning them becuase they denied him and made for themselves an idol. They worshiped the idol instead of God. You are taking one specific instance where the Isrealites sinned and trying to extrapolate that to cover all of history(a common problem when one relies on Sola Scriptura). Note this admonition is before the God comamned the Serpent on the Pole be made and before the other examples we gave you where images are not only acceptable but in some cases are intructed to be made by God himself.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

FURTHER INSIGHT!
Deuteronomy 4:15-24
15 Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, 16so that **you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure—the likeness of male or female, 17the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. **19And when you look up to the heavens and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, do not be led astray and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven. 20But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron-smelter, out of Egypt, to become a people of his very own possession, as you are now.
21 The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he vowed that I should not cross the Jordan and that I should not enter the good land that the Lord your God is giving for your possession. 22For I am going to die in this land without crossing over the Jordan, but you are going to cross over to take possession of that good land. 23So be careful not to forget the covenant that the Lord your God made with you, and not to make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything that the Lord your God has forbidden you. 24For the Lord your God is a devouring fire, a jealous God.

The Lord had allotted the use of images to all other nations, but God’s representatives to His own people were men, foreshadowing the personal relationship He would later bring about in Christ.

 

[estesbob]

The Lord had allotted the use of images to all other nations, but God’s representatives to His own people were men, foreshadowing the personal relationship He would later bring about in Christ.

As has been pointed out to you neither Scripture, The Early Church or the traditions of the last 2,000 years supports what you say.

 

[Nita]

The Jews were well aware that a calf idol was a pagan god. In making the golden calf as an idol to worship, they were reverting back to the pagan worship practices of their captors, the Egyptians, from whom they had recently escaped.

Calves were included among the many Egyptian gods. It was precisely for this reason that Moses told the pharaoh the Jews needed to go into the wilderness to worship and offer sacrifice to God. The Egyptians would have been very upset to see lambs sacrificed.

Exodus 8:25-27 Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron, and said, “Go, sacrifice to your God within the land.” But Moses said, “It would not be right to do so; for we shall sacrifice to the LORD our God offerings abominable to the Egyptians. If we sacrifice offerings abominable to the Egyptians before their eyes, will they not stone us? We must go three days’ journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to the LORD our God as He will command us.”

Nita

 

[NotWorthy]

So in verse 7 even God denies it was he whom brought them out? it doesn’t add up John.

Why don’t you ask God?

God was so ticked off about the golden calf, that he sort of “disowned” Israel, is what it would seem. I mean, you saw the quotes where God said “go to Your People”.

Now, I know God was aware all this was going to happen. So, God is maybe teaching us that since Israel disowned Him, they are no longer His People, until they repent.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why don’t you ask God?

God was so ticked off about the golden calf, that he sort of “disowned” Israel, is what it would seem. I mean, you saw the quotes where God said “go to Your People”.

Now, I know God was aware all this was going to happen. So, God is maybe teaching us that since Israel disowned Him, they are no longer His People, until they repent.

Or he is showing the displeasures of idols imagery and statues.
I’ll err on the safe side.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

As has been pointed out to you neither Scripture, The Early Church or the traditions of the last 2,000 years supports what you say.

C’mon estes ya kidding me, the whole OT is built around God’s chosen Kings judges and prophets. And yes I can find many ECf’s whom take issue with statues and images.

 

[estesbob]

C’mon estes ya kidding me, the whole OT is built around God’s chosen Kings judges and prophets. And yes I can find many ECf’s whom take issue with statues and images.

So lay your evidence fo all to see. Thus far we have seen you take a series of verses out of context, Ignore the multitude of verses that contradict what you say andthen you come to an opposite opinion of just about every Chrisian who lived that has come before you.

Such is the poblem with being straighjacketed by Sola Scriptura.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

So lay your evidence fo all to see. Thus far we have seen you take a series of verses out of context, Ignore the multitude of verses that contradict what you say andthen you come to an opposite opinion of just about every Chrisian who lived that has come before you.

Such is the poblem with being straighjacketed by Sola Scriptura.

Estes, do you own a new american catholic bible?
go to ex:32 see what it says for a translation/commentary for v1-6…Now unless you can show something else quit claiming I am quoting out of context even your own church stamped their approval on this. I’ve showed verses backing the context and you’ve showed none to the contrary, Have you been reading the thread?? It appears not. Ironically SS doesn’t cause the straight jacket, being forced to follow a specific interpretation whether you believe it or NOT. There is your straight jacket MY FRIEND!

 

[estesbob]

Estes, do you own a new american catholic bible?
go to ex:32 see what it says for a translation/commentary for v1-6…Now unless you can show something else quit claiming I am quoting out of context even your own church stamped their approval on this. I’ve showed verses backing the context and you’ve showed none to the contrary, Have you been reading the thread?? It appears not. Ironically SS doesn’t cause the straight jacket, being forced to follow a specific interpretation whether you believe it or NOT. There is your straight jacket MY FRIEND!

You have shown verses condeming idol worshiping. No one is in disagreement with that. In fact I gave you statements form the Church over the centuries condemning idol worship in no uncertain terms. The problem it is your personal interperation that this forbids statues and images . There is no basis in Scipture for that, you have been given cites where not only are statues used but in some cases were directed by God to be made. To believe your*** personal*** interpertation we have to beleive that just about everybody from the Time of Moses on have been wrong about this. As I said such is the problem of Sola Scriptura.

I have a feeling come Chistmas season you will be confidently telling us that Jeremiah forbade Christmas trees.