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Valke2
Guest
When I was younger I used to worship Bo Derek’s’s golden calves.
- Status
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Hai, my friend you know our God is a jealous God, He says so Himself.
This is very dangerous territory.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
W
water
Guest
You left out the part I kissed my g/f’c picture - so, God isn’t jealous of that?
oh, sure He is jealous but He’s the One who knows all hearts, and that’s why when I kissed my girlfriend’s picture, He knows I am thankful to Him for bringing my g/f to my life. When I layed flowers in front of Virgin Mary, He knows I am thankful to Him for having a great Mother in Heaven. And when I kissed His statue, He knows I am thankful to the One in Heaven, not the statue itself.
He is sure a jealous God, but unlike human being, He reads my heart.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Simon, I’m assuming you read my post on what the “amusing themselves” was all about.
If you put it in context of what Israel just left (Egypt), you understand that Israel was trying to turn God into an Egyptian god. It’s already demonstrated that Israel took part in the Egyptian idol worship while in Egypt, and within 50 days, Israel is already turning back to this idol worship.
Why do you think all the animals that Israel had to sacrifice in the Mosaic covenant represented Egyptian Pantheons.
If you put it in context of what Israel just left (Egypt), you understand that Israel was trying to turn God into an Egyptian god. It’s already demonstrated that Israel took part in the Egyptian idol worship while in Egypt, and within 50 days, Israel is already turning back to this idol worship.
Why do you think all the animals that Israel had to sacrifice in the Mosaic covenant represented Egyptian Pantheons.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
John,
If you know your egyptian history at all, you’ll know that even the pharoah had created a golden bull/calf for his people for his honor, this was common place during the exodus era.
Clearly this calf at the mountain was intended to be YAHWEH, and they manifested His image the way their tradition had taught them to.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
If that was true then why would God have been so angry about it.
I think you’re reaching Martin.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
It is true, that they created a “calf” to represent “God”, which of course would in itself make God “angry”.
You’ll have to explain to me, ChurchMil, where you think Marty is “reaching”.
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
And Simon, why did Pharaoh do this? Because Pharaoh was considered a deity in and of himself. This argument doesn’t stick.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Let’s see, the Israelites had already turned their back on God by:
A) Stating that Moses led them out of Israel, not Yahweh.
B) Created a calf of gold, in the fashion that the Egyptians had (If God had no problem with that, why didn’t he allow the Israelites to use the Egyptian Pantheons for thier faith?) They have soon turned aside from the way I pointed out to them, making for themselves a molten calf and worshiping it, (Not Yahweh, Simon, they were worshipping IT)* sacrificing to IT **and crying out, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt!*’ Note: you gotta love Aaron’s words to Moses, So I told them, ‘Let anyone who has gold jewelry take it off.’ They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out." I love it!!!
C) The Israelites, rose up and partied like it was 1999: "It does not sound like cries of victory, nor does it sound like cries of defeat; the sounds that I hear are cries of revelry."
One final note, the grinding up, spreading over the water was the tradition of many countries back then to show a conquered country that their “gods” were worthless. Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire and then ground it down to powder, which he scattered on the water and made the Israelites drink. I think Moses made them drink it so that the taste of their actions would always be bitter in their mouths.
A) Stating that Moses led them out of Israel, not Yahweh.
B) Created a calf of gold, in the fashion that the Egyptians had (If God had no problem with that, why didn’t he allow the Israelites to use the Egyptian Pantheons for thier faith?) They have soon turned aside from the way I pointed out to them, making for themselves a molten calf and worshiping it, (Not Yahweh, Simon, they were worshipping IT)* sacrificing to IT **and crying out, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt!*’ Note: you gotta love Aaron’s words to Moses, So I told them, ‘Let anyone who has gold jewelry take it off.’ They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out." I love it!!!
C) The Israelites, rose up and partied like it was 1999: "It does not sound like cries of victory, nor does it sound like cries of defeat; the sounds that I hear are cries of revelry."
One final note, the grinding up, spreading over the water was the tradition of many countries back then to show a conquered country that their “gods” were worthless. Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire and then ground it down to powder, which he scattered on the water and made the Israelites drink. I think Moses made them drink it so that the taste of their actions would always be bitter in their mouths.
E
estesbob
Guest
Martian :
Would you recommned we start destroying all these “idols” lest we suffer eternal damnation? Should we start with this one? Since it is a Statue that includes Mary I suspect you would want this one in particual destroyed;
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/gamarant/images/pieta.jpg
Would you recommned we start destroying all these “idols” lest we suffer eternal damnation? Should we start with this one? Since it is a Statue that includes Mary I suspect you would want this one in particual destroyed;
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/gamarant/images/pieta.jpg
N
Nita
Guest
I agree, it is the key. In the Old Covenant, when and as needed, God made His will known through men - Moses and the prophets.
In the New Covenant, He continues to make His will known, when and as needed, through men - the hierarchy He established to be in charge of His Church. There was much controversy in earlier centuries both pro and con. God’s will was revealed. He spoke through men when the Church made an official declaration settling the issue.
Nita
C
chosen_people
Guest
"It is very important to analyze what happened with the golden calf and why the Torah criticizes the Jewish people so harshly for this sin. And indeed what is revealed here about how God views the Jewish people.
After the greatest national revelation experience in human history when the whole nation hears God, Moses goes up the mountain and comes down 40 days later to find people dancing around an idol.
Now if I’d had an encounter with the Infinite Creator of the Universe speaking to me and I heard Him say “I am God, don’t worship anything else,” I don’t think I would be stupid enough to be jumping around a golden cow. So what’s going on in this story?
This is a classic case of knowing how to correctly read the text of the Bible. When I say correctly read, I mean, ideally in Hebrew but certainly with the commentators because there’s an oral tradition that must be studied along with the simple, very brief description in the text.
When Moses came down the mountain, were all 3 million Jews dancing around a golden calf? No. The Torah in Exodus 32:28 says it was only about 3 thousand people, mostly the mixed multitude of individuals who left with the Jews because they were so impressed by what went on with the Ten Plagues.1
That means that only about .1% of the Jews (one in a thousand) participated and 99.9% of the Jews did nothing wrong, (although the majority’s failure to stop the minority from worshipping the Golden Calf was considered a mistake). Yet God’s reaction makes it clear he is blaming the whole nation.
LOVE ISN’T BLIND
We already mentioned that amongst all ancient books the Bible is unique in its objective criticism and that the purpose of this criticism is to educate. But why the hyper-criticism?
One of the great untrue expressions of all time is “love is blind.” Infatuation surely is but true love has a magnifying glass for faults. To love someone means to focus on the beauty and positive within that person. This doesn’t mean that you don’t see their faults, but rather that you associate that person with their positive attributes. (Hate is of course the opposite).
An excellent practical example of this is your mother. She probably loves you more than any other person on earth yet she surely knows you faults better than anyone (yet she still loves you!).
Far worse than an overly strict parent is a parent who is neglectful.
If we transplant this parent analogy to God (aka Our Father in Heaven) then the hypercritical nature of the Torah begins to make sense. While God is the God of all humanity, He has a special relationship with the Jewish people and constantly “has an eye” on them. He deliberately overstates the Jewish people’s faults and mistake to get them to pay attention -to hammer home in the strongest possible language vital lessons that we must learn.
AN EXACTING STANDARD
God holds the Jews to a very high standard because they have a unique responsibility in human history. The world won’t get perfected without the Jews and if, God forbid, the Jews blow it, all of humanity, not just the Jewish people, will be doomed. Therefore, the Bible uses hyper-critical language to bring home some important principles:
We also learn here another fundamental idea of the Torah – that every Jew is a guarantor for every other Jew. The nation of Israel is a “body” and the individual Jews are like cells in this body. If part of the body does something wrong, the whole body is held accountable.
Judaism teaches you’re either part of the problem or you’re part of the solution, and that you have a legal obligation to be part of the solution. Being a by-stander is not an option. (Till today, the Bible is virtually the only moral/legal code in the world that demands that you actively do good as epitomized by the expression “…go in His ways.” (Deut. 28:9)2 )
This theme of collective responsibility repeats itself over and over again in the Bible and throughout Jewish history.
That’s why when a small group of Jews does something wrong and the rest of the nation doesn’t stop them, all are held accountable.
After the greatest national revelation experience in human history when the whole nation hears God, Moses goes up the mountain and comes down 40 days later to find people dancing around an idol.
Now if I’d had an encounter with the Infinite Creator of the Universe speaking to me and I heard Him say “I am God, don’t worship anything else,” I don’t think I would be stupid enough to be jumping around a golden cow. So what’s going on in this story?
This is a classic case of knowing how to correctly read the text of the Bible. When I say correctly read, I mean, ideally in Hebrew but certainly with the commentators because there’s an oral tradition that must be studied along with the simple, very brief description in the text.
When Moses came down the mountain, were all 3 million Jews dancing around a golden calf? No. The Torah in Exodus 32:28 says it was only about 3 thousand people, mostly the mixed multitude of individuals who left with the Jews because they were so impressed by what went on with the Ten Plagues.1
That means that only about .1% of the Jews (one in a thousand) participated and 99.9% of the Jews did nothing wrong, (although the majority’s failure to stop the minority from worshipping the Golden Calf was considered a mistake). Yet God’s reaction makes it clear he is blaming the whole nation.
LOVE ISN’T BLIND
We already mentioned that amongst all ancient books the Bible is unique in its objective criticism and that the purpose of this criticism is to educate. But why the hyper-criticism?
One of the great untrue expressions of all time is “love is blind.” Infatuation surely is but true love has a magnifying glass for faults. To love someone means to focus on the beauty and positive within that person. This doesn’t mean that you don’t see their faults, but rather that you associate that person with their positive attributes. (Hate is of course the opposite).
An excellent practical example of this is your mother. She probably loves you more than any other person on earth yet she surely knows you faults better than anyone (yet she still loves you!).
Far worse than an overly strict parent is a parent who is neglectful.
If we transplant this parent analogy to God (aka Our Father in Heaven) then the hypercritical nature of the Torah begins to make sense. While God is the God of all humanity, He has a special relationship with the Jewish people and constantly “has an eye” on them. He deliberately overstates the Jewish people’s faults and mistake to get them to pay attention -to hammer home in the strongest possible language vital lessons that we must learn.
AN EXACTING STANDARD
God holds the Jews to a very high standard because they have a unique responsibility in human history. The world won’t get perfected without the Jews and if, God forbid, the Jews blow it, all of humanity, not just the Jewish people, will be doomed. Therefore, the Bible uses hyper-critical language to bring home some important principles:
- According to your level of knowledge is your level of responsibility. Even the small mistakes of people in positions of power have huge consequences.
- According to your level of responsibility is your level of accountability. The greater you are, the bigger the impact of your decisions, therefore you must be held to an extremely high standard of accountability.
We also learn here another fundamental idea of the Torah – that every Jew is a guarantor for every other Jew. The nation of Israel is a “body” and the individual Jews are like cells in this body. If part of the body does something wrong, the whole body is held accountable.
Judaism teaches you’re either part of the problem or you’re part of the solution, and that you have a legal obligation to be part of the solution. Being a by-stander is not an option. (Till today, the Bible is virtually the only moral/legal code in the world that demands that you actively do good as epitomized by the expression “…go in His ways.” (Deut. 28:9)2 )
This theme of collective responsibility repeats itself over and over again in the Bible and throughout Jewish history.
That’s why when a small group of Jews does something wrong and the rest of the nation doesn’t stop them, all are held accountable.
C
chosen_people
Guest
THE AFTERMATH
As a sign of God’s displeasure, He distances himself from the Jewish people and the Tent of Meeting (Moses’s tent for communicating with God) is moved outside the camp. Moses spends a lot of time back in the camp dealing with the aftermath of the golden calf debacle. He smashes the idol, gathers loyal Levites around him and executes those responsible. (As you might have noticed the Bible is not a liberal book. While it is full of the merciful acts of God, it also emphasizes that there are serious consequences for wrongdoing.)
He goes back up the mountain on the 1st of Elul – Rosh Chodesh Elul. Elul is the month before Rosh Hashana, before 1st Tishrei, the beginning of the Jewish year. He spends forty days on the mountain again. He comes back down with the second set of tablets, and this is a clear sign that God has forgiven the Jewish people. What’s the day Moses comes back down? Yom Kippur.
As already mentioned, each Jewish holiday has a specific theme or focus. While these holidays are linked to specific historical events, on a deeper level they are connected to the different spiritual forces embedded with in the yearly cycle. Each holiday in the cycle touches on a fundamental concept is serves as a opportunity for growth in our relationship to God.
From Yom Kippur we get the spiritual power of teshuva – of repentance, of returning to closeness with God and repairing relationships with our fellow human beings.
As a sign of forgiveness God tells Moses He will again dwell among the Jewish people, and He instructs how His “home” is to be built.
“They shall make for Me a sanctuary and I will dwell among them.” (Exodus 25:8)"
source:aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_12_-_The_Golden_Calf.asp
As a sign of God’s displeasure, He distances himself from the Jewish people and the Tent of Meeting (Moses’s tent for communicating with God) is moved outside the camp. Moses spends a lot of time back in the camp dealing with the aftermath of the golden calf debacle. He smashes the idol, gathers loyal Levites around him and executes those responsible. (As you might have noticed the Bible is not a liberal book. While it is full of the merciful acts of God, it also emphasizes that there are serious consequences for wrongdoing.)
He goes back up the mountain on the 1st of Elul – Rosh Chodesh Elul. Elul is the month before Rosh Hashana, before 1st Tishrei, the beginning of the Jewish year. He spends forty days on the mountain again. He comes back down with the second set of tablets, and this is a clear sign that God has forgiven the Jewish people. What’s the day Moses comes back down? Yom Kippur.
As already mentioned, each Jewish holiday has a specific theme or focus. While these holidays are linked to specific historical events, on a deeper level they are connected to the different spiritual forces embedded with in the yearly cycle. Each holiday in the cycle touches on a fundamental concept is serves as a opportunity for growth in our relationship to God.
From Yom Kippur we get the spiritual power of teshuva – of repentance, of returning to closeness with God and repairing relationships with our fellow human beings.
As a sign of forgiveness God tells Moses He will again dwell among the Jewish people, and He instructs how His “home” is to be built.
“They shall make for Me a sanctuary and I will dwell among them.” (Exodus 25:8)"
source:aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_12_-_The_Golden_Calf.asp
C
chosen_people
Guest
"Upon their concluding that Moses had died, the Israelites expressed their desire to make many gods that would lead them. Their need for a god was simply a need for security to fill the void that Moses’ ostensible departure created.
Rashi notes that they desired many gods. This again reflects the primitive emotion they possessed. They had desires for different gods, to cater to each of their diverse needs. Their basic insecurities and trepidation’s were expressed by their desire for different gods, that would satisfy all their personal whims and grant them a sense of security.
It would seem that Aaron also underestimated the strength of these emotions. Aaron recognized their clamor to create new gods as reflective of their primitive emotions. He recognized the futility in trying to demonstrate the error of their calculations. The nation was no longer operating under their intellectual faculty. The primitive behavioral patterns to which they were subject in Egypt, were exerting their influence over the nation.
Aaron took an active role in the making of the Golden Calf. However, the role Aaron played was really a result of careful analysis. In reality he did not try to facilitate its construction but rather attempted to hinder its completion. He analyzed the behavior of the Israelites and tried to deal with them based upon their state of mind. He recognized a step by step regression in their rational faculty as they became under the grip of this overwhelming emotion. Aaron’s observations are expressed in a Midrash quoted by Rashi. Aaron observed several things. He saw the Israelites kill his nephew Chur, who tried to rebuke them. He observed and concluded that it would be better if the Israelites transgression was ascribed to him rather than to them. He also concluded that if they built the alter on their own, it would be finished immediately. He therefore undertook its construction hoping to tarry in his work, in order to delay them until Moses arrived. Aaron had recognized that their behavior patterns reflected the powerful sway of their emotions. The first thing the Israelites sought was a substitute leader. This reflected their need for the security of the physical. He requested their ornaments in an effort to appeal to their greed. This was essentially a delay tactic. He assumed that they would be reluctant because he thought that their greed would deter their actions. However, the Torah teaches us “Vayitparku” they readily removed all their jewelry. He thereby recognized and appreciated the overwhelming and dominating effect of these emotions as evidenced by the alacrity with which they responded to his request for their valuables. Thereafter, he observed that they killed Hur. This represented that they were no longer functioning with even a scintilla of rationality. They could not tolerate Hur’s rebuke and their murderous actions evidenced their total identification with the calf. He thus observed and concluded that at best, he could only slow their progress. Any attempt by him to have halted the construction of the calf would have been futile, and surely would have caused them to regress to the depth of their primitivism.
God still finds fault with Aaron’s action. Exodus 32:23 states, “And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose for Aaron had let them loose for a division among their enemies.” This criticism is lodged against Aaron for one can not make compromises with idol worship. The emotion is so powerful that if one allows it to be expressed in his behavioral patterns, it will ultimately dominate his actions and destroy him. Moses upon his return took extremely drastic measures. He openly expressed outrage and threw the tablets to the ground and shattered them. He thereby gathered to his side the Levites, who killed three thousand men. Moses’ extreme actions were purposeful to demonstrate that one can not compromise nor tolerate with the emotion for idolatry. The basic philosophy of Judaism is antithetical to these type of emotions."
source: edited from mesora.org/goldencalf.html
Rashi notes that they desired many gods. This again reflects the primitive emotion they possessed. They had desires for different gods, to cater to each of their diverse needs. Their basic insecurities and trepidation’s were expressed by their desire for different gods, that would satisfy all their personal whims and grant them a sense of security.
It would seem that Aaron also underestimated the strength of these emotions. Aaron recognized their clamor to create new gods as reflective of their primitive emotions. He recognized the futility in trying to demonstrate the error of their calculations. The nation was no longer operating under their intellectual faculty. The primitive behavioral patterns to which they were subject in Egypt, were exerting their influence over the nation.
Aaron took an active role in the making of the Golden Calf. However, the role Aaron played was really a result of careful analysis. In reality he did not try to facilitate its construction but rather attempted to hinder its completion. He analyzed the behavior of the Israelites and tried to deal with them based upon their state of mind. He recognized a step by step regression in their rational faculty as they became under the grip of this overwhelming emotion. Aaron’s observations are expressed in a Midrash quoted by Rashi. Aaron observed several things. He saw the Israelites kill his nephew Chur, who tried to rebuke them. He observed and concluded that it would be better if the Israelites transgression was ascribed to him rather than to them. He also concluded that if they built the alter on their own, it would be finished immediately. He therefore undertook its construction hoping to tarry in his work, in order to delay them until Moses arrived. Aaron had recognized that their behavior patterns reflected the powerful sway of their emotions. The first thing the Israelites sought was a substitute leader. This reflected their need for the security of the physical. He requested their ornaments in an effort to appeal to their greed. This was essentially a delay tactic. He assumed that they would be reluctant because he thought that their greed would deter their actions. However, the Torah teaches us “Vayitparku” they readily removed all their jewelry. He thereby recognized and appreciated the overwhelming and dominating effect of these emotions as evidenced by the alacrity with which they responded to his request for their valuables. Thereafter, he observed that they killed Hur. This represented that they were no longer functioning with even a scintilla of rationality. They could not tolerate Hur’s rebuke and their murderous actions evidenced their total identification with the calf. He thus observed and concluded that at best, he could only slow their progress. Any attempt by him to have halted the construction of the calf would have been futile, and surely would have caused them to regress to the depth of their primitivism.
God still finds fault with Aaron’s action. Exodus 32:23 states, “And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose for Aaron had let them loose for a division among their enemies.” This criticism is lodged against Aaron for one can not make compromises with idol worship. The emotion is so powerful that if one allows it to be expressed in his behavioral patterns, it will ultimately dominate his actions and destroy him. Moses upon his return took extremely drastic measures. He openly expressed outrage and threw the tablets to the ground and shattered them. He thereby gathered to his side the Levites, who killed three thousand men. Moses’ extreme actions were purposeful to demonstrate that one can not compromise nor tolerate with the emotion for idolatry. The basic philosophy of Judaism is antithetical to these type of emotions."
source: edited from mesora.org/goldencalf.html
G
GandalfTheWhite
Guest
So wait, Martin, your argument is basically that you are not sure what the Bible really says but it seems to condemn the Catholic use of statues. So, in order to be “saved” you will rather “take the safe direction” in case you’re right, correct?
Well, we Catholics don’t have this problem. We don’t need to try avoiding hell by over-interpreting the Bible.
It’s actually pretty funny (and sad at the same time). You, seem to be implying that you, with your Sola Scriptura, are pretty much in danger. You use your limited understanding of the ancient language and culture, your biased and finite mind to interpret an ancient text. If you are uneducated (heck, you could even have a PhD in “bible-studies” and still be wrong), unlucky or simply too trusty, you might even end up in hell. I guess I understand your worries and I wouldn’t be too surprised if you had a similar opinion on Christmas trees.
Well, we Catholics don’t have this problem. We don’t need to try avoiding hell by over-interpreting the Bible.
It’s actually pretty funny (and sad at the same time). You, seem to be implying that you, with your Sola Scriptura, are pretty much in danger. You use your limited understanding of the ancient language and culture, your biased and finite mind to interpret an ancient text. If you are uneducated (heck, you could even have a PhD in “bible-studies” and still be wrong), unlucky or simply too trusty, you might even end up in hell. I guess I understand your worries and I wouldn’t be too surprised if you had a similar opinion on Christmas trees.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
WOW what a mouthful!
I’m not worried! are you?
Seriously, I think it is pretty funny (and sad at the same time) Y’all can rationalize something so obviously unGod like… And make it part of your religous piety!!!
G
GandalfTheWhite
Guest
No, it’s not “obviously unGod like”. From reading the whole Exodus 32 it’s clear that this is not what it says.
Exodus 32:1
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.
People said: “Come, make us gods who will go before us.” They spoke about gods. If you argue that they were speaking about on god then it still doesn’t support your assertion. They didn’t say: “Come, make us an image of God that goes before us.” What they said clearly implies that they were introducing a new god that would lead them.
**Exodus 32:4 **says:
“These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
You argue that this implies that they didn’t choose a new god. In the light of the whole passage this seems very unlikely. Most likely they just rejected God and created a fantasy, and associated the deeds of God to that idol (what an offense to our Lord!). You don’t think so? Can you show us that it is otherwise?
But let’s for some time forget the context of the whole passage (for example that it says that they are **making **gods). If if you are correct then what you say is still not an argument against the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I might pray in front of a Crucifix (or other statue). I’m however not worshiping the stone (or wood) but God. We Catholics use it only use it to remind us and direct our prayer in a material way. It is totally different from taking a baseball bat and worshiping it, because I believe that the bat is God. If someone would do that I wouldn’t be too surprised if God wouldn’t be very happy about it (for obvious reasons).
If you believe that they actually kept worshiping God through the calf then please show me how you make that conclusion. I don’t see it anywhere and it seems to be that you only came to that conclusion because you are afraid that you might err due to the problems of Sola Scriptura (you now, taking the safe path…).
And let me also remind you that during the OT God that revealed himself had no shape but God the Son became flash and lived among us. Having an image of Jesus is very different than taking a chocolate chip muffin and praying to God through it as to an image of God (which seems that this is what you believe the Israelites did).
And now a question for you. Is it wrong for me to have a photo of my wife (not that I would have one) next to my bed? Is it wrong to use that picture to direct my thoughts at her?
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
god here used is the word 'elohiym, which by the way is used,2606 times and 2347 of those refering to God Almighty…notice how the “s” is added to the hebrew word by the translators, since it is a plural word to start with, but didn’t 2347 other times? Interesting bit of meat there Just because they didn’t use a capital letter in the English version, doesn’t mean anything at all.
So, the evidence is clear. Even the translation in my catholic bible says as such…The calf is imagery for YAHWEH!
G
GandalfTheWhite
Guest
I don’t speak Hebrew but I suppose that your argument goes this way: only 259 times out of 2606 this Hebrew word was referring to God, and therefore this time it must be referring to God as well, correct?
I don’t know how about you, but I don’t find it logical. If all you do is that you base your argument on simple statistics, then I think this this is a very weak argument. Just because 1/10 uses of this word refers to God, doesn’t mean that this one refers to it as well - especially if you read the whole passage.
They said to Aaron: “Come, make us gods who will go before us.” They did not say: Come, make us an image of God who has gone before us"
Also Lord said to Moses: “They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” So, they clearly didn’t believe that the calf was God since they didn’t sacrifice and bow to God but to the calf.
Now, even if we suppose that I’m wrong (and you’re lucky with your statistical figures) and that they did think it’s God, show me that they weren’t worshiping the calf **as **God. In other words that they didn’t say that the calf is actually God (in the same way as if I made a statue of a kangaroo, believed that it is actually God [as opposed to some fantastical god] and worshiped it). Because if you can’t prove that you’re already making two big assumptions. You see, if I was wrong, we Catholics still don’t believe that the image of Jesus that hangs on our wall is actually Jesus or is in some way tied to it.
The only way to show that we are wrong is to show that they actually believe that the calf was only a representation of God and that they were bowing to God and not to the calf. I’m very curious how you’re gonna do that.
But I asked you a question, which you haven’t answered. I’m hoping you’re going to do this this time.
“Is it wrong for me to have a photo of my wife (not that I would have one) next to my bed? Is it wrong to use that picture to direct my thoughts at her?”
Pax Christi!
~G
PS: Could you please tell us more about that Catholic commentary? Perhaps even quote it? I’m quite interested where it comes from and what it *actually *says.
- Status