Abandoning NFP - damaging the Marriage?

[lovemysix]

“Why is that? And to what extent can it be attributed to NFP? What kind of marriage do “other people want”, and how does NFP prevent achieving it?”

Rau,

To be totally honest with you, I think happiness (or unhappiness) in marriage does not result from either ABC or NFP use, and anybody who thinks it does is trying to make life far simpler than it is.

Respect, generosity, and a genuine friendship with each other does go a long way toward a happy married life.

I don’t pretend to have the answers for everyone; all I can do is try to live my own life the best way I can and try to be a light to my own children and the world.

It’s not as easy as “use NFP and be happy” or “use ABC and be happy” or “use nothing and be happy”. Life is not a formula. Anybody who believes it is has a lot to learn.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I do not use ABC, and I never will. But I also do not see how NFP is the ideal either. It left a very bad taste in my mouth and I will NEVER go back to using it. I have seen too many threads about unplanned babies due to NFP failure and seen far too many distraught husbands and wives to think that NFP is anything besides birth control. If it is not birth control, babies wouldn’t be referred to as failures or mistakes or oops or whatever. People wouldn’t come on here asking, “my mucus appears fertile even though I shouldn’t be.Do you think I got pregnant last night? I’ll be furious!” If NFP was all about respect, than why do many instructors (mine included!) encourage us to have sex on safe days whether we want to or not, but then condemn the couple that uses ABC for making love. To me it makes no sense.

I believe and trust the Church’s teaching about marital love, but I know too often the people who are using NFP look for loop holes and expand their “just reasons” to stretch way beyond what is truly just. How is that different than the contracepting couple? Both are going against Church teaching, however the NFP brigade (yes, I too believe it exists) will defend the couples right to discern for themselves when and how to use NFP and the couple should not be judged. If that same couple switched to ABC when the situation becomes more serious, all of a sudden they are wrong, using each other, destrying their marriage, bad Catholics, sexually deviant, etc. People use NFP as the default instead of only utilizing NFP in serious situations. That too goes against church teachings.

And yes, the Vatican documents say grave and serious reasons. The catechism says just reasons. In all actuality, grave, serious and just can easily mean the same thing.

I want to touch on the pink.

Respectfully, how could you possibly know that too often people use NFP as a loop hole?

.

 

[Rau]

“Why is that? And to what extent can it be attributed to NFP? What kind of marriage do “other people want”, and how does NFP prevent achieving it?”

Rau,

To be totally honest with you, I think happiness (or unhappiness) in marriage does not result from either ABC or NFP use, and anybody who thinks it does is trying to make life far simpler than it is.

Respect, generosity, and a genuine friendship with each other does go a long way toward a happy married life.

I don’t pretend to have the answers for everyone; all I can do is try to live my own life the best way I can and try to be a light to my own children and the world.

It’s not as easy as “use NFP and be happy” or “use ABC and be happy” or “use nothing and be happy”. Life is not a formula. Anybody who believes it is has a lot to learn.

So perhaps I mis-understood you. When you wrote of NFP users:

“Decades into their marriages, most are living anything but what most people want in their marriages”.

I thought you were blaming (at least in part) NFP for their situation. It seems that you are actually just saying that NFP (or ABC) did not lift up their situation to a better place.

 

[LongingSoul]

Sorry folks but there is no such thing as a Catholic NFP brigade. There is no organized movement to sell you NFP in an unpleasing way. Humans are flawed. NFP instructors are not perfect, they are human.

I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as too rainbows and butterflies. I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as too hard. I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as holy. I hear people complain that NFP is portrayed as immoral. As a person with no dog in the fight, what I see is a lot of people who want to control the way NFP is portrayed. There is no brigade so there is no organization. People portray NFP the way that they view it. That’s the bottom line. Portray it the way you want but you can’t control other people. If there truly was a brigade, you could complain to them. But there isn’t so instead I see shaking of fists at an imaginary group. If someone said something displeasing to you, let them know how it made you feel. It’s no reason to justify immoral behavior. It’s not “the problem”.

I agree with you . If there is a ‘brigade’ or ‘movement’ it is but a little tiddler compared to the contraceptive brigade. Secular family planning organisations attract enormous public funding and support for all methods of pregnancy solutions from the pill to abortion. It openly supports consequence free sex and uninhibited sexual freedom. Catholic family planning is roundly mocked as crazy Amish type nutters.

As a mother sending my kids out into the world those agendas strike me as dehumanising and selfish and so contrary to the unconditional prolife attitude the Church is fighting for that I’m compelled to make an alternative stance. That’s why I began volunteering with the Catholic counselling organisation I’ve been with for more than 10 years.

As a Catholic, in everthing we do, say and think, we begin from a place of trust in the Church. Jesus said “Everything is possible for one who believes”. - Mk 9:23 and we answer "(We) do believe; help (our) unbelief!” - Mk 9:24 From that we can confidently and fearlessly step out into the hostile secular world and be a voice of Truth.

 

[momoffamily]

No one makes money from being an NFP instructor. Maybe a little “egg money”. If you are lucky enough to have the expenses for your recertification reimbursed (I never have) you feel blessed.
Many who are seeking help have come to a point of conversion. They may be coming off ABC.They are trying to achieve pregnancy. They wish to monitor reproductive health.
They are also couples who are checking something off a marriage prep list and have no intention of listening to anything you have to offer (copy of Humanae Vitae, etc).
There is no brigade, no conspiracy. Sounds a little ordinary, doesn’t it?
It is.

 

[lovemysix]

“I thought you were blaming (at least in part) NFP for their situation. It seems that you are actually just saying that NFP (or ABC) did not lift up their situation to a better place”

Yes, that is what I was saying. I do think all sorts of things can be stressors on a marriage: stressful finances, illness, effects of the pill, long periods of abstinence, etc., etc., which can make marriage a lot harder. But on the flip side, I’d also say that lots of money, good health, and easy family planning are not the key to happiness. There is a lot more to it than that.

I don’t want to speculate on other people’s marriage woes, but I do think perhaps unrealistic expectations of both marriage in general and the spouse in particular, can lead to a lot of tension and unhappiness in marriage.

Also, gratitude matters. Gratititude to God, to our spouses, and to all others who have helped us get to where we are today. A lot of the NFP’ers I know are also have a generally sourpuss (and often, sour grapes!) attitude about the world in general, rather than feeling so utterly grateful for all the blessings we have been given. I, too, fall short on gratitude sometimes (don’t we all!), but it’s when I am most grateful that I am also most happy.

I will have a lot to answer for on Judgement Day, but I really hope that I am able to stand before my Lord and tell Him how truly grateful I am for everything He ever gave me on this earth, however imperfectly and sinfully I have lived my life.

 

[LongingSoul]

Also, gratitude matters. Gratititude to God, to our spouses, and to all others who have helped us get to where we are today. A lot of the NFP’ers I know are also have a generally sourpuss (and often, sour grapes!) attitude about the world in general, rather than feeling so utterly grateful for all the blessings we have been given.

Ah now this is giving unwarranted blame to NFP because I do know the attitude you’re alluding to and they belong to every organisation in general. They take the principles of the organisation as just another weapon in the armoury … but that’s has no bearing of the organisation itself. Those are clique oriented types who love drama and group tension and would be exactly the same whether they belonged to the Hatfields or the McCoys.

So that doesn’t demonstrate an NFP brigade.

 

[maryjk]

No, based on a dictionary definition, there is no brigade. The word was being used as a figure of speech.

Our point is, there is a distinct group, here on CAF. And possibly at parishes. And this group touts NFP as the best thing since sliced bread. You dare not say anything against it.

And if anyone dares to say anything against it, well their marriage is attacked. Or their spouse is.

And it doesn’t matter if you saying something negative and you use NFP, stopped using NFP or use ABC. The attack still seems to come.

What could possibly be gained by asking someone if their spouse now sees them as a valuable human being? Or if they feel better now that their spouse isn’t using them? Where could a poster be going with these questions?

 

[7armyrugrats]

I want to touch on the pink.

Respectfully, how could you possibly know that too often people use NFP as a loop hole?

.

The reason I believe people look for loop holes is from reading the posters on this forum and from listening to people in real life. The reasons people give are usually more convenience and trivial than grave, serious or just. I know couples use NFP for true medical reasons, unemployment, poverty, etc. but most people do not have pressing issues. Couples decide they want X number of kids and then no more, or they want the kids to each have X amount of after school activites, or they want to be married for X amount of years before a baby comes. I’m sure you have seen the number of threads of distraught spouses because they found out a baby is coming that they weren’t planning on. How many are concerned about a health problem? How many are concerned they will lose their home? How many can not afford food? Yes there are some, but mist are upset for other reasons. Usually the reasons are very trivial. Often it is simply because they never got around to “planning” a baby.

I don’t think that these are evil people. I think they are human. We all fall short sometimes. But when people start pointing fingers at others they need to take a double look at themselves. Why is one couple using NFP so they don’t have more than X amount of kids simply because that is the exact number they always wanted any less wrong thanthee couple who is using ABC for a severe medical issue?

 

[sailor28]

Why is that? And to what extent can it be attributed to NFP? What kind of marriage do “other people want”, and how does NFP prevent achieving it?

If you have a chance to read the link, “Women Speak about NFP” you can gain some insight into how some couples found NFP as a deterrent to a healthy marriage. I did not share my story there and don’t want to share something so personal online in this type of forum. But I could identify with a number of the women and the conclusions they made.

 

[lovemysix]

Ah now this is giving unwarranted blame to NFP because I do know the attitude you’re alluding to and they belong to every organisation in general. They take the principles of the organisation as just another weapon in the armoury … but that’s has no bearing of the organisation itself. Those are clique oriented types who love drama and group tension and would be exactly the same whether they belonged to the Hatfields or the McCoys.

So that doesn’t demonstrate an NFP brigade"

I have said nothing about NFP brigade, nor do I care to. i have never employed the term, nor do I plan to.I can only speak to the NFP couples I know. Rau asked if I thought that NFP was the cause of their unhappiness, and I responded that I do not. I think it marital happiness goes far deeper than either NFP or ABC. I have clearly stated I think most people, whether NFP or ABC practicing, are not very happily married. I do think lack of gratitude plays a part in that. Rau particularly wondered about NFP and marital unhappiness, and I simply observed that among the NFP-practicing couples I know, there seems to a widespread lack of gratitude. It is more noticeable among them than it is among the ABC-practicing couples I know becuase the NFPers tend to much more vocal about their religious practicies. I happen to find religious ingratitude particulary unbecoming, but that does not mean I don’t know ungrateful ABC-practicers as well. Ingratitude in this world abounds. What else is new?

 

[7armyrugrats]

Yes, I know the definition of brigade. Did you not see my screen name? It’s a figure of speech used to describe the way some people come out fighting with no holds barred.

Alright, I’m out for the night. My little ones need me. My three youngest have the flu, I’m packing to move, and my husband is gone for training. Oh, the joys of motherhood…

 

[Rau]

A lot of the NFP’ers I know are also have a generally sourpuss (and often, sour grapes!) attitude about the world in general, rather than feeling so utterly grateful for all the blessings we have been given.

You seem to be calling out the NFPers in particular for exhibiting these negative characteristics. Any ideas on why they in particular appear this way? Is this a resentment for the strictures of their faith? I assume these attitudes are less prevalent in the ABCers? **

 

[momoffamily]

One does not “use NFP” as one uses contraception.
You either have relations or you do not.
If you mutually agree not to have relations as St. Paul said, “to devote yourself to prayer” (1 Corithinans 7:5), this is a decision based on respect for each other.

Maybe you track cycles on paper (not a sin). Maybe you do not have it done on paper- but inside you have round about knowledge of the state of your combined fertility (not a sin). You are not “using NFP” by having knowledge. Acknowledgement of the state of fertility is not a sin. Always assume you will achieve pregnancy when having relations. That is what being open is about.

You decide as a couple to have relations or you do not. What is a stress in one marriage may not seem a stress in another. I know a family where one of the spouses was an only child. It took a tremendous leap of faith for them to have more than one child, and many years of prayer. From the outsider looking in, there seems to be no grave reason to space as they did. They are grateful for the Church and its teachings …and both children.

 

[lovemysix]

“You seem to be calling out the NFPers in particular for exhibiting these negative characteristics. Any ideas on why they in particular appear this way? Is this a resentment for the strictures of their faith? I assume these attitudes are less prevalent in the ABCers?”

Look, I am not here to get into some sort of debate—I’ve been around long enough to know they go nowhere and convince nobody. You seemed to be honestly questioning people’s experience, so I answered honestly, given my own experiences, because that it truly the only thing I can speak to.

You asked about NFPers, so I responded about the ones I know. That is all I can speak to. If everybody else has more positive experiences with NFPers, more power to them.

I don’t have the answers, so my only responses would be speculation, and speculation will simply bring about the meanness in the comboxes. I have no desire to be part of that. I am sorry I can’t be more helpful, but perhaps others can be.

Peace.

 

[CarrieSpooner]

No, based on a dictionary definition, there is no brigade. The word was being used as a figure of speech.

Our point is, there is a distinct group, here on CAF. And possibly at parishes. And this group touts NFP as the best thing since sliced bread. You dare not say anything against it.

And if anyone dares to say anything against it, well their marriage is attacked. Or their spouse is.

And it doesn’t matter if you saying something negative and you use NFP, stopped using NFP or use ABC. The attack still seems to come.

What could possibly be gained by asking someone if their spouse now sees them as a valuable human being? Or if they feel better now that their spouse isn’t using them? Where could a poster be going with these questions?

Right, the only way “brigade” can be applied as an appropriate figure of speech is if there is a distinct group. Now you claim there is a distinct group here on CAF. Please point me to this group. Then the misunderstandings between us can be cleared up completely.

I can’t tell you what a person hoped to gain by asking you that without seeing it in context. Which thread where you asked this question so I may read it in context? Is it possible that you misunderstood what they were trying to say? If not, and you believe this person was just being rude then the person was just being ride. It doesn’t mean there is a distinct group of people that we need to be blaming for making people abandon NFP.

 

[Rau]

…Couples decide they want X number of kids and then no more, or they want the kids to each have X amount of after school activites, or they want to be married for X amount of years before a baby comes…

I don’t think that these are evil people. I think they are human. We all fall short sometimes. But when people start pointing fingers at others they need to take a double look at themselves. Why is one couple using NFP so they don’t have more than X amount of kids simply because that is the exact number they always wanted any less wrong thanthee couple who is using ABC for a severe medical issue?

The first paragraph above is very real world and IMHO far more common than we CAF posters are like to be happy to admit. In my experience most young couples can and do answer a question like “how many kids would you like to have” with a numerical answer eg. “2 or 3”.

The 2nd para makes sense too. I would note that it does rest on a bias toward more children rather than less, and for some couples, this is readily and enthusiastically embraced, and for others it is not.

 

[maryjk]

Right, the only way “brigade” can be applied as an appropriate figure of speech is if there is a distinct group. Now you claim there is a distinct group here on CAF. Please point me to this group. Then the misunderstandings between us can be cleared up completely.

Are you kidding?

Do really not understand what we are talking about?

I can’t tell you what a person hoped to gain by asking you that without seeing it in context. Which thread where you asked this question so I may read it in context? Is it possible that you misunderstood what they were trying to say? If not, and you believe this person was just being rude then the person was just being ride. It doesn’t mean there is a distinct group of people that we need to be blaming for making people abandon NFP.

I have over 8,000 posts. I have been a member since July 2005. If you would like to sort through all of those posts to find the ones in question, be my guest.

It seems that everyone else on this thread understands my point.

I refuse to waste any more time with you. Good bye.

 

[CarrieSpooner]

Are you kidding?

Do really not understand what we are talking about?
I have over 8,000 posts. I have been a member since July 2005. If you would like to sort through all of those posts to find the ones in question, be my guest.

It seems that everyone else on this thread understands my point.

I refuse to waste any more time with you. Good bye.

You are trying to make the point that there is a distinct group on CAF but can’t point them out. You keep asking me about his one question someone on CAF asked you. I’m not able to tell you what that person hoped to gain with only hearing your version of what they said, taken out of context.

 

[David011]

The reason I believe people look for loop holes is from reading the posters on this forum and from listening to people in real life. The reasons people give are usually more convenience and trivial than grave, serious or just. I know couples use NFP for true medical reasons, unemployment, poverty, etc. but most people do not have pressing issues. Couples decide they want X number of kids and then no more, or they want the kids to each have X amount of after school activites, or they want to be married for X amount of years before a baby comes. I’m sure you have seen the number of threads of distraught spouses because they found out a baby is coming that they weren’t planning on. How many are concerned about a health problem? How many are concerned they will lose their home? How many can not afford food? Yes there are some, but mist are upset for other reasons. Usually the reasons are very trivial. Often it is simply because they never got around to “planning” a baby.

I don’t think that these are evil people. I think they are human. We all fall short sometimes. But when people start pointing fingers at others they need to take a double look at themselves. Why is one couple using NFP so they don’t have more than X amount of kids simply because that is the exact number they always wanted any less wrong thanthee couple who is using ABC for a severe medical issue?

I’m sorry, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that the Church left it up to couples to decide what “just” reasons were. Are they only supposed to be for medical and financial crisis?