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Rau
Guest
No, I think she just makes the point that pre-determining family size is somewhat arbitrary and may not reflect an appropriate level of contemporaneous consideration. In my view, it is, however, completely commonplace.
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Rau
Guest
A bunch of people who all have very similar views on a subject, and get to express it in various forums, and support each other on message boards, may seem like an organised “Group”, though they are not. I can understand that their viewpoint or those that express it, might be referred to as a Movement, Brigade, Gang or any of a number of collective nouns.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Thank you for writing this.
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David011
Guest
Well if the Church allows a couple to decide what is ‘just’ for them, how can there be “loop holes”? Because what one couple considers a just reason, is basically a less ‘just’ loop hole to another couple.So I’m just a little confused into what can allow someone to point out that another couple’s reasons are selfish if there Is nothing (unless again I missed something) that specifies what selfish reasons are. I’m not trying to point the “judgment” finger I’m really just trying to understand.
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LongingSoul
Guest
It was being used to connote extremism in the first instance though and by extension… an ‘outlaw’ group of Catholics. Sometimes you see people refer to the pro-life militia, or homophobes, or even hypocrits for trying to find a Sunday Mass if you are camping remotely, simply for being uncompromising on Church doctrine. I say thank the Lord for the people that stand outside of abortion clinics and pray and those who stand for Church doctrine when it would be easier to acquiese to the crowd. I’m too cowardly on things a lot of the time … but I am very grateful that others aren’t.
God Bless.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I am sorry. It is I who must be confused. I have no idea what your point is about only God can judge.
But it is beyond the topic anyway.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
It was not I whom you addressed but I will take a shot. I know to often people have done this. I know because I was an NFP instructor. I know because of nights on the phone with frustrated couples in tears and struggling in their marriage and I know because I have a close group of friends who all talk about these things in their own lives. I know people who used it inappropriately because they told me so.
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Rau
Guest
This is a bit off-track, but I’ll see if I can clarify. And I do this despite a personal inability to see clearly how to interpret and “live” this teaching regarding ‘Just’ reasons. I’m one who by nature wants to “plan” and does not cope well with uncertainty. I tend to see complexity eg. there are so many tradeoffs that one can make across factors such as: how many children, how much charitable donations, how nice an area to live in, how nice a house, what kind of school, extent of extra curricular activities. And these are just some of the factors that involve ‘financing’ the family.
All couples are different with different natural skills, outlooks and desires. It’s hardly surprising that they arrive at different decisions (“justly”) despite outwardly similar circumstances, and it is inappropriate to jump to conclusions about someone’s motivations for calling it quits at X children, and likewise for the couple whose family size seems beyond what “we” might think is “prudent”.
The Church leaves it to parents to decide what are “just” reasons - to appeal to their own conscience. We can all readily acknowledge that we may or may not do a good job in consulting our conscience earnestly, but I don’t think this is usefully characterised as exploiting a “loop-hole”. Pre-determining that X is the number of kids we will have, and never thinking about it again, is probably not a good job.
Instead of requiring Just reasons, the Church could have said: “make whatever decision you like”, and issued a caution against a life focussed on self-enrichment (in a material sense). I suggested this on another thread, and I recall one of the responses that resonated was that this would be to ignore the widely accepted belief that children are a great blessing.
We don’t need to be second guessing the decisions that others make on a matter such as this. But we should be able to acknowledge that poor decisions (in the context of the Church teaching) are possible without starting WW3.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
This is exactly where I think all the guilt, infighting and pride and “judgement” comes in.
NFP is the ONLY thing The Church is like this about. In every other moral question we have indicative teaching. Stealing is always wrong. Even if you are starving. Stealing is wrong and we cannot do a wrong to try to attain a good. That is clear Catholic teaching.
Is it wrong to steal a million dollars? yes. Is it wrong to steal 1 dollar, yes.
But with NFP what is right for one couple may be wrong for another. It is so confusing. A couple may be living in poverty and choose to have a child. A different couple may think that college and education need be paid for for every child and so does not. 1 moral decision. (should we have a child) 2 different answers.
This type of moral ambiguity is noticed by all sides of this debate. Some may feel that others are not having enough children. Others may feel guilty because they are not truly in tune with God’s plan. Both views have pitfalls.
I honestly believe the Church will clarify and help guide NFP in the future. I think that NFP as a system is a relatively new technology and only recently has been given a spotlight. Perhaps someday the Church will clarify “serious” “just” grave" or what have you. Perhaps the Church will guide us more efficiently.
Until then we are stuck with the fact that NFP is not perfect. It is not “Catholic Birth Control” and it is not easy. Perhaps it should not be easy. Perhaps like everything else, Holy it should be a struggle in a world that is viewing sex and children in an unholy way.
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
I’ve been thinking about this overnight…let me try and explain using NFP, ABC etc as an example.I am sorry. It is I who must be confused. I have no idea what your point is about only God can judge.
On the assumption (from my perspective) that the Catholic Church is true and is truly Christs established church. Jesus gave the church the keys to the kingdom and the power to loose and bind…he gave that to the “church” not the lay catholics. The church has created the catechism to make clear what it teaches and what it believes to be wrong and right etc. therefore acting on Gods behalf the CHURCH (not the lay catholics) can “judge” (I prefer correct, discipline, forgive) the catholics who sin, fall away from church teachings etc. So first point…it’s the CHURCH not the lay catholics.
Secondly if you know someone who is committing a sin which is against church teachings, I see nothing wrong of pointing out what the church teaches…ie in the catechism. However this till shouldn’t be done in a “haha your wrong, I’m right…your going to hell” sort of way as we all sin. What someone can point people to the catechism on ABC, others could on attending mass in a Sunday or being validly married etc. remember Jesus said not to judge hypocritically. But there is nothing wrong with saying “the church teaches this now it’s upto you to decide”. If they choose to disobey the church (and so in catholic minds God) that is upto them.
HOWEVER…and I think it’s what people forget, NFP is NOT required by the church. Only not using ABC is. The church is quite happy for couples to go natural or abstain. Therefore saying things like “oh isn’t your marriage better now you have used NFP” and “doesn’t your husband appreciate you more” (or whatever else has been said to any couple at any time, not necessarily on here) is judgemental and this is wrong. It’s definitely wrong, because the church does not require NFP and therefore the church (ie God) would not think that NFP makes your life/marriage better? It also suggests that there was something wrong with the marriage before NFP.
My point about God being judge…well he is isn’t he? He is the ultimate judge of us all? He has given us the church to guide us (again not lay catholics), teach us, correct us…but at the end of the day only He will be our judge…whether in standing by the priest or at the end of days.
Hope that explains a bit better…
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sailor28
Guest
I see that someone (carriespooner) who was posting in this thread was banned. What is it that you could do or say in this thread to get banned?
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Vico
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
By the way Rau, I’m sorry for derailing your thread (again…) 
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a_cermak
Guest
But some of the documents themselves mention education as a consideration of a just cause. And a couple may do the math and determine that in order for them to pay for the children’s education, Mom will have to have a career; that’s typically going to limit the number of children she can have. Why not do the math and figure out that we can afford 2 or 3? The beauty of NFP is one can always add on later if one recalculates and determines the situation has changed.
Not every couple is called to parent 5 or 6 children. Not every couple wants to start their married life with a pregnancy. Why not enjoy a honeymoon so one has something to look back to as a pleasant time in the marriage during times of stress?
And what’s wrong with school activities? If I had a child who was musically gifted, I’d want my child to play in the band at school. If I had a child who was a good athlete, I’d want my child to compete in athletics. Same with chess, science, etc. I would consider that to be part of being a good parent and promoting stewardship of my child’s talents.
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Sarabande
Guest
I don’t usually get involved in sex or NFP threads, because I’m usually a little private about these subjects. But I saw and agreed with this and have felt the same way when faced with similar questions. The questions are insensitive, presumptive, a bit condescending and a little obnoxious, even if they were well-meant. I personally think I have a wonderful, loving, spiritual and respectful marriage and it really didn’t have a lot to do with the lack of or the use of NFP. It has everything to do with how we viewed marriage as a holy sacrament, our understanding of marriage before going into it and, on a human level, how we valued each other as people, friends, lovers and children of God.
We all have our individual crosses and sins to bear. I am in no place to judge or assume the character or state of a person’s marriage based on what they do to space children. Knowing how I felt when posed with similar statements and questions, firstly, I would never pry into another person’s sex life unless I was specifically asked for an opinion on what they did, and if I was, it just seems so presumptive to assume that the couple’s marriage was shallow and not as valued before using NFP. I mean, if that couple said, themselves, that was how they felt about their marriage, then great. I’m glad that was what it took to bring their marriage and love to another level, but that is not always the case for all couples. I do think that those couples who have had problems with NFP and have been hurting in their marriage seem to not be heard fully or at least have some empathy of what they are going through. It seems to sometimes be downplayed.
Well, that’s all I have to say on the subject. Now back to lurking.
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Xantippe
Guest
HoosierDaddy said:
“NFP is the ONLY thing The Church is like this about. In every other moral question we have indicative teaching.”
As a matter of fact, that isn’t true.
Take for instance charitable giving. How much should any particular family give to charity? We know we are supposed to give, but there is no set percentage or amount that we are bound to give. Even households with exactly the same income will have different numbers of dependents that are supported by that income, differing expenses (for instance, if there are severe health problems or special needs) and generally different needs, depending on time of life. A $40k a year family with three kids (one of whom has special needs) and a mortgage and who are saving for a minivan for when a fourth appears are in a very different position than an elderly couple with a $40k a year income, a paid off house and a paid-off car. But, if that same elderly couple were facing terminal illness and had no adult children nearby, they might be in much greater material need than the family expecting the fourth child.
There are many, many cases where there is room for individual judgment. Again, imagine that your teenage child asks to borrow your car. You are not going to find the answer to whether or not saying yes or no is more prudent or virtuous by cracking the Catechism.
“NFP is the ONLY thing The Church is like this about. In every other moral question we have indicative teaching.”
As a matter of fact, that isn’t true.
Take for instance charitable giving. How much should any particular family give to charity? We know we are supposed to give, but there is no set percentage or amount that we are bound to give. Even households with exactly the same income will have different numbers of dependents that are supported by that income, differing expenses (for instance, if there are severe health problems or special needs) and generally different needs, depending on time of life. A $40k a year family with three kids (one of whom has special needs) and a mortgage and who are saving for a minivan for when a fourth appears are in a very different position than an elderly couple with a $40k a year income, a paid off house and a paid-off car. But, if that same elderly couple were facing terminal illness and had no adult children nearby, they might be in much greater material need than the family expecting the fourth child.
There are many, many cases where there is room for individual judgment. Again, imagine that your teenage child asks to borrow your car. You are not going to find the answer to whether or not saying yes or no is more prudent or virtuous by cracking the Catechism.
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white_sheep
Guest
The times we have used it I found it to be a burden. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
I never said that everyone needs to have a large family. I also never said educating children wasn’t important. I didn’t say anything was wrong with extra curricular activities. But I have seen many times on these threads that people have states that no one who uses NFP has a mentality that places more importance on worldly good than on the gift of life, and that any couple who uses ABC must not be using it for any reason other than materialistic desires. It isn’t accurate.
I’ll give you two real life examples to help me explain my reasoning. One of my sisters married at 19 and had 4 daughters by the time she was 24. All four daughters we c-sections. Her first was an emergency due to placental abruption, so the drs made a rather large incision. When the next three babies were delivered, each incision cut across the first, leaving one long scar with three scars across it, and a very thin uterus. Her OB informed her that a future pregnancy would be extremely dangerous and could kill her. She was extremely distraught. She had always wanted 12 kids, but she was terrified to leave her daughters without a mom. My sister got her tubes tied. Was this sinful? Yes. Was it a mortal sin? I don’t know because I can’t see her soul through God’s eyes. Was her decision understandable? Yes, and if we are all honest with ourselves, most of us would at least consider doing so even if we never would.
One of my other sisters is an NFP instructor. She is very vocal about the evils of contraception. She reminds my previously mentioned sister on a regular basis that she never should have had her tubes tied. Anyway, this particular sister married into a wealthy family. Her husband owns and is CEO of two international companies, each worth over $5 million a piece. Their monthly income is what sister #1 makes in a year. In her 20+ years of marriage, she and her husband have had 2 sons that they have sent to secular private school ($15,000/ year/ student), own three houses in three different countries, travel extensively, had live in nannies (one for each son), the list goes on. This sister tells us at every family gathering how she wishes she could have afforded more children. Somehow she can afford three house, but another baby would bankrupt them I guess. Was this sinful? Well, according to many posts on CAF, NFP can never be sinful. I have a hard time accepting that. Is it understandable? Not to me, and I’m sure most people can not relate to this at all. Are there other couples that aren’t as extreme examples but still expecting much more worldly comforts instead of aligning themselves towards God’s desires for us? I’m sure most of us (myself included) do this in many areas of our lives.
I do not dispute that ABC is wrong. The Church states it is intrinsically evil and I do not see this teaching ever changing. I do not want it to change either. NFP can and is used for the wrong reasons much more often than anyone cares to admit. My sister that is the NFP instructor is very vocal about how wrong all of us sisters are because we do not use NFP like she does. As previously mentioned, one had her tubes tied, two are on the pill, and I used NFP for years until my marriage suffered severely because of it. But how can she point fingers at us (I am not even using ABC), when she is less open to God’s will than we are, simply because she uses NFP?
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David011
Guest
But, if the church says its up to the couple to decide what is “just” for THEM, I still don’t see how anyone can point a finger and call another person’s reason a loop-hole. Since the church doesn’t specify what is considered just (and again leaves that to the couple) anyone saying “that’s not a good reason” is simply just stating their own meaningless opinion. They certainly have a right to say it, especially if people ask for it. I guess what I’m trying to ask is if I were to be Catholic, and some self righteous person comes up and says my reasons are selfish, I can just slap church catechism in their face. Of course in a friendly way.
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Rau
Guest
If there is sin here, it may be in self-enrichment, rather than in the practice of NFP. We don’t know from this story what other acts of generosity the wealthy sister pursues (perhaps none, I don’t know). I tend not to see an obligation to have children until some limit of capacity is reached. All are called to generosity, which for some may be fulfilled through children, and others differently. So I would not look to the practice of NFP, but rather to what else in life one’s talents and gifts are applied.
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