Abandoning NFP - damaging the Marriage?

[manualman]

To the NFP Crowd:
Why do we get charged when an ABC user pontificates? Are we not confident in our choice? Do we secretly feel like we are missing out on some great sexual freedom and are just looking for company?

I think a lot of believing catholics get charged whenever anybody pontificates about the church “getting it wrong” for 2,000 years and they have figured out the true path on any subject. Look around, notice some rather heated exchanges when fundamentalists come here and try to rescue us from the “Whore of Babylon?” Do you suspect us then of secretly wishing to be fundamentalists?

Do I secretly wish I my parish used Coke and pizza for communion materials when I get jazzed up refuting a “do it yourself Christian’s” argument that that is appropriate?

No, I don’t think it’s that simple. Sure there are lots of reasons that people argue. Some are good reasons, some aren’t and some have mixed motives. But I tend to think that most people, when they find Christ and choose to surrender their own desires and preferences to Him, find it a joyful experience and simply want others to share it. That’s true even when the surrendering itself is a difficult experience of suffering.

 

[a_cermak]

One of my other sisters is an NFP instructor. She is very vocal about the evils of contraception. She reminds my previously mentioned sister on a regular basis that she never should have had her tubes tied.

That is incredible that someone would do something like that! What business is it of hers? Even admonishing of sinners requires that the admonishing have some purpose. Here, the sister is not obliged to further risk surgery so she is under no demand that she get it reversed and for all the busybody sister knows, the other sister has long ago confessed it and, given the state she was in at the time, she may not have even satisfied the moral requirements to have full freedom when she made her decision.

Frankly, I would think the sister who regularly chides another sister about her reproductive choices is worse than one who just flat out uses ABC. One is violating Catholic rules, the other is being a nag and probably harming her relationships with others.

 

[7armyrugrats]

7armyrugrats said:

“It is disheartening to me that even though many people try to find other excuses for one sister, only one person has found it disturbing that she belittles the other sisters.”

Sure it’s disturbing, but just as she is judgy about her sisters, it seems like you are being judgy about her. (It’s probably contagious) If she were here, everybody would be telling her to back off.

I have a close relative who had one child around 20 and that one child is now 14 and there is no sign of a follow-up kid and no mention of infertility. Financially speaking, they could probably easily raise another four or five kids on their income (if it’s not at least $200k a year with all their different income streams, I’ll eat a pizza box). However, I have seen a lot of her husband, and he can be a bit of an ogre. For all I know, their marriage is just hanging by a thread even with one kid (we have at least one regular poster here in that situation–and in that case the family is apparently high-earning).

In your sister’s case, there are many possible sad and embarrassing explanations for why she only has two kids that she might not wish to share with the world at large or even (or especially) her own sisters. For instance, her husband might not be sexually attracted to women. Or perhaps he didn’t want more and she did, or vice versa. Or perhaps their sons were the product of some complicated (and immoral) medical procedure.

Try to give her the benefit of the doubt, and don’t let her beat up on your other sisters.

I appreciate you defending a person you do not know. You are very kind. I assure you I know my sister quite well and leave it at that. I am the youngest sister and live quite far from home now so I can not prevent the cycle that they are in, I’m just thankful to not deal with it anymore. Ironically, until a few months ago I had always had a great relationship with her (she’s the oldest) and I never got along with the rest of my sisters, and she and I are the only Catholics of the bunch. But people have for the most part missed the point I was trying to make. I assume I’m just not very good at expressing things.

To borrow from another poster, I agree there is nothing wrong with knowing about your skeletal system, and NFP is just that–knowledge of a particular system of our body. But we can use knowledge sinfully. We are human and humans make terribbly selfish decisions at times. Part of the reason many people get turned off when it comes to NFP is the fact that many people that use ABC are labeled as selfish and that people who use NFP say it can not be used selfishly. Yes, it can be. I think the turning point will be when we can admit that and not feel like it will destroy the Church’s position on ABC. I for one don’t think it will. I think that admitting that it is at times utilized for the wrong reasons it will assure others that as human beings we are all imperfect and all have room for growth. It will stop people from becoming holier than thou and stop the feelings of condemnation that people throw form one side to the other.

Until this thread, I never told anyone except my husband how terribly ill the thought of going back to NFP makes me feel. I have always advised couples of the benefits, explaining how it is different than ABC. Yes it is different and it is moral if used for the right reasons. I am just tired of people trying to deny that it is not supposed to be the default and it is at times used selfishly by real people. It can be Catholic Birth Control whether we like it or not.

 

[7armyrugrats]

That is incredible that someone would do something like that! What business is it of hers? Even admonishing of sinners requires that the admonishing have some purpose. Here, the sister is not obliged to further risk surgery so she is under no demand that she get it reversed and for all the busybody sister knows, the other sister has long ago confessed it and, given the state she was in at the time, she may not have even satisfied the moral requirements to have full freedom when she made her decision.

Frankly, I would think the sister who regularly chides another sister about her reproductive choices is worse than one who just flat out uses ABC. One is violating Catholic rules, the other is being a nag and probably harming her relationships with others.

My other sisters are not even Catholic. Part of the reason they are so strongly opposed to the Church is dealing with this.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

BUT…the Church’s teaching on artificial birth control are not based on how selfish the user is.

NFP isn’t permitted because its selfless.

The Church has always taught that contraception was wrong.

So why does the Church prohibit contraception? Partly because marriage is called to be fruitful. But the other very important reason that the marital act should not be corrupted, because of it’s extreme beauty and importance.

How can it be corrupted?

Pre marital relations, adultery, masturbation, etc etc.

Are these things all wrong for different reasons? No they are all wrong for the same reason, that the marital act should not ever be corrupted.

So, sometimes a couple needs to limit the number of children or increase the space between the children.

How is that possible without corrupting the act?

Contraception? No.

Periodic abstinence. Yes.

Why? Because each and every time a couple comes together the act is one where a baby could occur. It might not be possible for the woman to conceive at that time. But nothing is done to cause her to be infertile. She just is at that time.

Most of the time when a couple comes together, the wife won’t conceive. Even families with 10 kids.

Couples should be generous to each other. But generosity does not have to mean let’s have man children, although it could.

But using myself as an example, there have been times where we’ve had to abstain a whole lot.

1 example is after my father died suddenly I fell into a deep period of mourning, where I would be barely able to get up to go to work. We abstained, and my husband was “generous” to me because he put his needs on the back burner while I was a basket case.

Another couple might have been “generous” a different way.

When a couple uses NFP, each member needs to balance their own personal needs, to that of the spouse, to that of the children.

I’ve seen on the often enough that NFP is equated to ABC.

On both sides of the fence, those that think ABC is permissible and those who are agree with the Church that ABC is sinful.

I’ve seen bloggers and videos making the claim that if a motive was so serious to avoid children the couple should completely avoid sexual relations as well. I’ve read that it is irresponsible and “unconscionable” to have relations if one has a such a serious reason.

Yes, some couples might chose to completely abstain. And it would be a valid choice and God bless them.

But let’s think about it ? Couldn’t complete abstinence also be practiced selfishly? There are no cases of couples where 1 spouse decides to withhold intimacy. Or uses intimacy as a reward system or a punishment.

The “selfishness” of NFP users is often just linked to amount of children. Selfish has to also do with how we treat our spouses and our children.

Can spouses be selfish with each other? With intimacy? Yes.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Yes, ABC corrupts the marital act. It can be likened to many other sexual sins, including misusing the knowledge derived from NFP. If a woman tricked her husband into having another child, that is misuse of NFP as well as when a couple absolutely refuses to ever consider having a child would be misuse of NFP.

By no means is every couple sinning when they follow the signs God lays out for them. No one has said that it is always wrong. It can be though. It can get to the point where the entire focus of a couple is on how fertile the woman is on each and every day of the month. It can get to the point where a couple decides they had better go on and have sex on this night even if they aren’t feeling it because they aren’t going to be able to for the next X amount of time. It can lead to frustration and feelings of rejection when one spouse repeatedly denies the other spouse, which breeds contempt and resentment. It can bring about distrust when one spouse has admitted they would like another child and then a pregnancy occurs making the other spouse wonder if it was done on purpose. These are just a few ways NFP can and does corrupt the marital act if used improperly.

You are absolutely correct that extended abstinence is quite often destructive to a marriage. Most couples are not called to celibacy. If they were, most would not have married to begin with. NFP is supposed to be used as an alternative to celibacy, not as the ideal or the default. Having been in a situation where we were celibate I can assure you I do not advocate that for most marriages.

 

[momoffamily]

One male pointed out to me that a man can be used selfishly by the wife when she desires a baby really bad and only makes herself available during the fertile time by conveying the message that this is the only time it is possible for her because of libido. I never thought of that.
NFP allows a couple to examine deeply the meaning of the act, our fears, ours bias,our hopes, our pre-conceived notions of each other, our selfish and selfless acts. ABC ultimately will fail in this regard.
Jesus loves us so much to not offer us the very best through the Church teachings.

 

[LongingSoul]

It probably needs to be reiterated at the top of each page… but people don’t ‘use NFP’ like you use the rhythm method or you use Ovacare or you use ABC.

Natural family planning is like healthy eating. We don’t use healthy eating. It’s not an alternative to binging like going on a diet. Healthy eating is the default. It’d be more accurate to say “I don’t overeat or I don’t binge”. So “I don’t use contraception” is a more accurate statement than “I use NFP”.

I think if people feel that rejecting contraceptives is then using NFP, they are going to have the same struggle as saying “I am rejecting food and going on a diet”. It already sets up a dichotomy between having sex and abstaining, like a diet sets up a dichotomy between eating and starving. It’s all too hard to maintain happily for a lifetime with that mentality.

NFP is a lifestyle like healthy eating is a lifestyle so its inaccurate and damaging to keep saying “I use NFP”. I think that phrase has probably grown into being by those who have already previously persued a life of sexual freedom and are trying to conform themselves to more temperate sexual attitudes. That could indeed be a marriage damaging error of attitude.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

It probably needs to be reiterated at the top of each page… but people don’t ‘use NFP’ like you use the rhythm method or you use Ovacare or you use ABC.

Natural family planning is like healthy eating. We don’t use healthy eating. It’s not an alternative to binging like going on a diet. Healthy eating is the default. It’d be more accurate to say “I don’t overeat or I don’t binge”. So “I don’t use contraception” is a more accurate statement than “I use NFP”.

I think if people feel that rejecting contraceptives is then using NFP, they are going to have the same struggle as saying “I am rejecting food and going on a diet”. It already sets up a dichotomy between having sex and abstaining, like a diet sets up a dichotomy between eating and starving. It’s all too hard to maintain happily for a lifetime with that mentality.

NFP is a lifestyle like healthy eating is a lifestyle so its inaccurate and damaging to keep saying “I use NFP”. I think that phrase has probably grown into being by those who have already previously persued a life of sexual freedom and are trying to conform themselves to more temperate sexual attitudes. That could indeed be a marriage damaging error of attitude.

But NFP isn’t the default…trusting in God and letting whatever happens, happen is. There are people who have stated on this thread that they don’t “use” NFP, ABC or anything. They simply leave everything upto God or abstain if they so desire.

NFP might not be a device, but it is something you (or at least the woman) has to do…check temp, mucus, chart etc etc. I accept that it’s different (in catholics eyes) to “using” ABC but I still think it is OK to say “I use NFP”

 

[lovemysix]

I have to eat the Specific Carbohydrate Diet in order to stay healthy. It’s very restrictive, but it is extremely healthy, and it has certainly changed my life. Yes, I do speak of “using the SCD diet” because that is indeed what I have done. I eat it for a very specific reason–to keep symptoms of a chronic serious illness at bay. It’s also an extremely healthy way to eat, period. But if my disease could be cured, and I didn’t have to eat so restrictively just to function, you’d better believe I’d start downing the peanut m&m’s in a heartbeat. IOW, though the diet is healthy, that is not my primary reason for staying on it.

It’s the same way with NFP. Most people do indeed use it. I have good friends who are NFP instructors,and they employ that terminology. My husband and I were both virgins on our wedding day and certainly hadn’t lived some life of sexual freedom, but we employed the terminology of “using NFP” Quite frankly, we only started “using” it when we realized I was going to keep getting pregnant 3-6 months after each baby was born if we did not. We would have much preferred to just let nature take its course, but nature was destroying my body.

My fertility signs were never normal, so I can’t say I ever got to the point of knowing exactly what day my period would arrive, exactly when I was fertile, etc, etc (this is why we were not successful with it), but I certainly have some general notions of when I am likely ovulating these days, so it’s not like I don’t have any knowledge of my body. But I would never say I am practicing NFP just becuase I have some knowledge of fertility cycles. There is indeed a difference between having knowledge and changing behavior because of that knowledge to try to ensure a certain outcome. This is why the common verbiage of the common person is “use NFP” They are taking that knowledge and changing their behavior because of it in order to bring about a desired result. That’s what I do with the SCD diet, too. I use it to bring about a desired result. Just knowing about it would do me no good. I have to change my behavior according to that knowledge if I want to be healthy. I am utterly grateful for it, too, but I’d never do this diet if my back wasn’t up against the wall.

 

[manualman]

And with eating, the default is to eat when you’re hungry and not eat when you’re not. But some people have a serious reason to find ways to reduce their caloric intake and reverse a weight gain trend. Those people have a genuine need to scrutinize their eating habits and intelligently alter their consumption patterns. That process sucks too. Ask me how I know!

But the fact that it sucks to restrict yourself from eating what you desire to doesn’t make it better to eat all you want and puke once in a while to control the calorie intake.

No, it’s not a perfect analogy, but then again, none is…

 

[Rau]

It probably needs to be reiterated at the top of each page… but people don’t ‘use NFP’ like you use the rhythm method or you use Ovacare or you use ABC.

Natural family planning is like healthy eating. We don’t use healthy eating. It’s not an alternative to binging like going on a diet. Healthy eating is the default. It’d be more accurate to say “I don’t overeat or I don’t binge”. So “I don’t use contraception” is a more accurate statement than “I use NFP”.

I think if people feel that rejecting contraceptives is then using NFP, they are going to have the same struggle as saying “I am rejecting food and going on a diet”. It already sets up a dichotomy between having sex and abstaining, like a diet sets up a dichotomy between eating and starving. It’s all too hard to maintain happily for a lifetime with that mentality.

NFP is a lifestyle like healthy eating is a lifestyle so its inaccurate and damaging to keep saying “I use NFP”. I think that phrase has probably grown into being by those who have already previously persued a life of sexual freedom and are trying to conform themselves to more temperate sexual attitudes. That could indeed be a marriage damaging error of attitude.

I too have some difficulty with attaching sin directly to the “use” of NFP.

Consider a futuristic scenario where the wife (or couple) simply know always the exact state of their fertility. No thermometers or charts - they just know it.

Decisions to have sex thus naturally and always occur in light of the knowledge of their fertility. What if they go for years choosing not to have sex on fertile days, thus avoiding children? I cannot see a sin against chastity, or a sexual sin here. If one knew everything about this couple, one might form a view about their generosity, or one might observe great generosity in other ways, and speculate about their desire for children.

 

[Xantippe]

Mary Gail 36,

That was very good.

7armyrugrats said:

“It can get to the point where a couple decides they had better go on and have sex on this night even if they aren’t feeling it because they aren’t going to be able to for the next X amount of time.”

And what’s wrong with that?

One might do exactly the same thing if there were a major business trip or other disruption coming up.

“It can lead to frustration and feelings of rejection when one spouse repeatedly denies the other spouse, which breeds contempt and resentment. It can bring about distrust when one spouse has admitted they would like another child and then a pregnancy occurs making the other spouse wonder if it was done on purpose. These are just a few ways NFP can and does corrupt the marital act if used improperly.”

Those are equally problems outside NFP-world. It often happens among ABC couples that one spouse will just stop wanting to have sex, or one spouse wants another kid and the other doesn’t. I am addicted to a number of secular advice columns (Dear Prudence, Dear Amy, Dear Wendy, etc.), and these are universal problems. (There is a huge and exhaustive secular website entitled “Why Your Wife Won’t Have Sex With You”.) Also, remember, 50% of unplanned pregnancies occur among couples who are using contraception.

What is actually unique about NFP is the length of abstinence and self-control required.

Longing Soul,

Very good. “I use periodic abstinence” would be more accurate, but it sounds not very fun.

Oh, and while I remember it, NFP is just as much about achieving pregnancy. In fact, in the secular world, fertility awareness for achieving pregnancy is now pretty mainstream.

 

[7armyrugrats]

One male pointed out to me that a man can be used selfishly by the wife when she desires a baby really bad and only makes herself available during the fertile time by conveying the message that this is the only time it is possible for her because of libido. I never thought of that.
NFP allows a couple to examine deeply the meaning of the act, our fears, ours bias,our hopes, our pre-conceived notions of each other, our selfish and selfless acts. ABC ultimately will fail in this regard.
Jesus loves us so much to not offer us the very best through the Church teachings.

It is wrong for a woman to do that to a man. It is degrading him to nothing more than a sperm donor. One of the ways NFP can be destructive when used improperly.

When used correctly it can be a blessing. Knowledge is powerful. Think about Original Sin. Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Since the beginning we have struggled with trying to know as much as God. Yes, He helps us out, but ultimately we need to surrender to His will. When used for the right reasons, that is what NFP is. It is in our human nature to distort any type of knowledge into our own self serving direction and ultimately it destroys us. A lot of people have seen this happen in their marriages and that is why a lot of couples give up on NFP. Some surrender completely to God, some become celibate at least for a while, and some recognize that the way they were using that knowledge was no differently than if it was ABC and so they head in that direction.

 

[LongingSoul]

But NFP isn’t the default…trusting in God and letting whatever happens, happen is. There are people who have stated on this thread that they don’t “use” NFP, ABC or anything. They simply leave everything upto God or abstain if they so desire.

NFP might not be a device, but it is something you (or at least the woman) has to do…check temp, mucus, chart etc etc. I accept that it’s different (in catholics eyes) to “using” ABC but I still think it is OK to say “I use NFP”

No that misconception about NFP has grown up in recent times. 20 years ago when I was in the thick of that phase of life, I would never had said “I use NFP”. I would have just said " I don’t use contraception". I might say “I use temperature and mucus signs to determine my fertile times” but thats not like doing something to make my fertility happen. It’s just recognising it.

When you are living a healthy lifestyle it doesn’t mean you become blind deaf and dumb in leaving things to God. You still have to be bodily aware to recognise a mole thats changing colour or a lump in your breast. It isn’t natural to say I’m not going to pay any attention to myself at all and die if that’s the natural way.

A woman who says I’m leaving my family size to God doesn’t mean that she is ignoring everything else from her own health or the needs of her family. ‘Natural’ means having an overall attitude of health. Bodily health, sexual health, environmental health, family health. That’s what natural means. It means being pro-life in everything you do.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

And with eating, the default is to eat when you’re hungry and not eat when you’re not. But some people have a serious reason to find ways to reduce their caloric intake and reverse a weight gain trend. Those people have a genuine need to scrutinize their eating habits and intelligently alter their consumption patterns. That process sucks too. Ask me how I know!

But the fact that it sucks to restrict yourself from eating what you desire to doesn’t make it better to eat all you want and puke once in a while to control the calorie intake.

No, it’s not a perfect analogy, but then again, none is…

I’ve “used” the Cambridge diet in the past! I still haven’t got the hang of eating healthily so I’ll probably “use” another “method” of dieting.

 

[Rau]

But NFP isn’t the default…trusting in God and letting whatever happens, happen is.

We are also highly intelligent, thinking, planning creatures. I think the default is to put our talents to work, guided by conscience.

 

[Xantippe]

manualman said:

“And with eating, the default is to eat when you’re hungry and not eat when you’re not. But some people have a serious reason to find ways to reduce their caloric intake and reverse a weight gain trend. Those people have a genuine need to scrutinize their eating habits and intelligently alter their consumption patterns. That process sucks too. Ask me how I know!”

Amen.

If I eat when I’m hungry, I’m going to gain weight and keep gaining weight. Unfortunately, healthy eating for me means being hungry at least some of the time.

It’s no more realistic to expect to be able to have sex any time one wants to than it is to expect to be able to eat whenever one wishes and as much as one wishes. Sex is not different from other appetites in that respect.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

No that misconception about NFP has grown up in recent times. 20 years ago when I was in the thick of that phase of life, I would never had said “I use NFP”. I would have just said " I don’t use contraception". I might say “I use temperature and mucus signs to determine my fertile times” but thats not like doing something to make my fertility happen. It’s just recognising it.

When you are living a healthy lifestyle it doesn’t mean you become blind deaf and dumb in leaving things to God. You still have to be bodily aware to recognise a mole thats changing colour or a lump in your breast. It isn’t natural to say I’m not going to pay any attention to myself at all and die if that’s the natural way.

A woman who says I’m leaving my family size to God doesn’t mean that she is ignoring everything else from her own health or the needs of her family. ‘Natural’ means having an overall attitude of health. Bodily health, sexual health, environmental health, family health. That’s what natural means. It means being pro-life in everything you do.

But you would agree that NFP is a “method”, it needs to be learnt from an instructor which suggests “use” and if I’ve read the forums properly, their are different types of NFP to learn?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

We are also highly intelligent, thinking, planning creatures. I think the default is to put our talents to work, guided by conscience.

True, I have no issues with NFP, I’ve said before on the forums, that even I look for signs of fertility during my cycle (it’s easy for me, I’m lucky) to determine if ABC is needed (please note I’m not arguing abc is right at this point).

I also don’t see a problem with someone saying “I use NFP”

If everyone kept their sex lives to themselves we wouldn’t be discussing whether to say “I use” is appropriate for NFP