Abby Johnson's Take on Kermit Gosnel's Sentence

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Before anyone responds that it is ludicrous to believe one can show respect for the sanctity of life by taking a life, bear in mind that it was God himself who set the penalty for murder.
That’s a pretty tall assertion. I’d challenge you to back it up showing examples. Those examples should be instances where God commanded retribution killing in general principle, not specific circumstances. By that I mean that God is able to judge individuals and decide who warrants death. Us, not so much. The instances of which I am aware apply to specific individuals, specific times and places. It’s an unsupported jump of logic to assert that such specific cases establish precedents where humans become capable of judging men worth to die in retribution in the absence of specific divine direction.
 
That’s a pretty tall assertion. I’d challenge you to back it up showing examples. Those examples should be instances where God commanded retribution killing in general principle, not specific circumstances.
2260 …*. For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning… Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. *[Gn 9:5-6]
The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. This teaching remains necessary for all time.

The enormity of this sin is manifest from many and weighty passages of Holy Scripture. So much does God abominate homicide that He declares in Holy Writ that of the very beast of the field He will exact vengeance for the life of man, commanding the beast that injures man to be put to death. Gn 9:5-6] (Catechism of Trent)

*It is lawful for a Christian magistrate to punish with death disturbers of the public peace. It is proved, first, from the Scriptures, for in the law of nature, of Moses, and of the Gospels, we have precepts and examples of this. **For God says, “Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed.” **These words cannot utter a prophecy, since a prophecy of this sort would often be false, but a decree and a precept. *(St. Bellarmine)

If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture (notably in Genesis 9:5-6 and Romans 13:1-4). (Cardinal Dulles)
Ender
 
2260 …*. For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning… Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. *[Gn 9:5-6]
The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. This teaching remains necessary for all time.

The enormity of this sin is manifest from many and weighty passages of Holy Scripture. So much does God abominate homicide that He declares in Holy Writ that of the very beast of the field He will exact vengeance for the life of man, commanding the beast that injures man to be put to death. Gn 9:5-6] (Catechism of Trent)

*It is lawful for a Christian magistrate to punish with death disturbers of the public peace. It is proved, first, from the Scriptures, for in the law of nature, of Moses, and of the Gospels, we have precepts and examples of this. **For God says, “Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed.” ***These words cannot utter a prophecy, since a prophecy of this sort would often be false, but a decree and a precept. (St. Bellarmine)

If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture (notably in Genesis 9:5-6 and Romans 13:1-4). (Cardinal Dulles)
Ender
Dear Ender,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Splendid response and, most importantly, absolutely bang on target.

God Himself, dear friend, sanctioned the death penalty for murder in the first place (Gen. 9: 6) because man is made in His image. Therefore, when violence in the form of murder is done to a man, it is in effect and outrage against his Maker and the just retribution must be the death of the murderer. An attack on man represents an attack on the divine majesty and that disorder can only be satisfactorily redressed by the murderer forfeiting his own life, at least according to Noahic Covenant, which continues to remain in force.

The Catholic abolitionists, dear friend, cannot show where there has been a suspension of man being made in God’s image, therefore the whole rationale for the death penalty in Genesis 9: 6 is as true today as was in the days of Noah and capital punishment for murder remains one of continuing validity. The current Church Catechism cites this text and then states that “This teaching remains necessary for all time” (CCC, para. 2260), because “blood is a sacred sign of life” and should not be shed by an act of murderous violence.

In view of the fact that God first mandated the death penalty for murder, how can one argue that it is an unworthy and barbaric punishment that has no place in a progressive society? To espouse such an impious view surely impugns the character of God and turns Him into a sort of cruel unmerciful ogre. This seems to me to have more in common with the maudlin sentimentality of secular humanism, rather than an authentic Catholicism. The Catholic Church has always considered the death penalty for murder a just and fitting punishment and has always acknowledged the right of civil government to administer it (cf. Rom. 13: 4).

God bless and thankyou Ender for your excellent posts upon this topic.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Your opinions, while you are entitled to hold them for yourself, are not reflective of Church teaching, which says that the subject of the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgement and Catholics are allowed to oppose or support it, and its application is a matter of evaluating the current political situation and the status of the prison system in a given jurisdiction.

The Church holds that the death penalty is not meant to be a vindictive judgement on the person who committed a crime, but rather a preventive measure to protect innocent human life.

Do you reject these Church teachings?
 
In view of the fact that God first mandated the death penalty for murder, how can one argue that it is an unworthy and barbaric punishment that has no place in a progressive society? To espouse such an impious view surely impugns the character of God and turns Him into a sort of cruel unmerciful ogre.
The problem for those who reject capital punishment is finding a way to oppose it without repudiating Traditional church teaching on the subject. The point you make here was addressed 1600 years ago.It must be remembered that power was granted by God [to the magistrates], and to avenge crime by the sword was permitted. He who carries out this vengeance is God’s minister (Rm 13:1-4). Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority. (Pope St. Innocent I)
Ender
 
The Church holds that the death penalty is not meant to be a vindictive judgement on the person who committed a crime, but rather a preventive measure to protect innocent human life.
The primary objective of all punishment is “to redress of the disorder caused by the offense” (2266). It is retributive justice for the crime already committed, not the prevention of future crimes that is the more significant objective. The point Cardinal Dulles made in the citation I just provided shows that this has always been church teaching. You were right to point out that current opposition to the use of capital punishment is prudential but there should be no confusion as to whether protection or retribution is more important.

Ender
 
The problem for those who reject capital punishment is finding a way to oppose it without repudiating Traditional church teaching on the subject. The point you make here was addressed 1600 years ago.It must be remembered that power was granted by God [to the magistrates], and to avenge crime by the sword was permitted. He who carries out this vengeance is God’s minister (Rm 13:1-4). Why should we condemn a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God’s authority. (Pope St. Innocent I)
Ender
Dear Ender,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Thankyou, dear friend, for that citation of Pope St. Innocent I - never come across that one before. How very apposite it is given the unfavourable and negative comments which are made by many contemporary Catholics respecting capital punishment. It is unfortuante that they have come to view the administration of the death penalty as an act of sinful vengeance rather than an act of retributive justice which has been mandated by God Himself for the civil authority to inflict as His minister. The Catholic Church has always believed throughout its history that the death penalty for murder is morally licit and that the state is permitted to discharge this God-given function as “a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil” (Rom. 13: 4).

Sadly, dear friend, in the degenerate days in which our lot is cast, the poison of humanism has directed sympathy to the criminal instead of the victim, which partly explains why there is such an intense dislike nowadays for the whole notion of retributive justice. This is a grave error which as at complete variance with the traditional teaching of Holy Mother Church upon this topic. Nothing shows the moral bankruptcy of a people or a generation more than disregard for the sanctity of life and it is this atrophy of moral fibre that appears in the plea for the abolition of the death penalty for the heinous crime of murder.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Thankyou, dear friend, for that citation of Pope St. Innocent I - never come across that one before.
The citation is from Epist. 6, c. 3. 8, ad Exsuperium, Episcopum Tolosanum, (20 Feb. 405). Unfortunately I no longer have the link to my source for that quote.
It is unfortuante that they have come to view the administration of the death penalty as an act of sinful vengeance rather than an act of retributive justice which has been mandated by God Himself for the civil authority to inflict as His minister.
The confusion seems to stem from failing to distinguish between the obligations of the individual and those of the state. The individual has the obligation to forgive but the state has the duty to punish.
the poison of humanism has directed sympathy to the criminal instead of the victim, which partly explains why there is such an intense dislike nowadays for the whole notion of retributive justice.
This seems disturbingly accurate. Justice itself is viewed with some disdain.
Nothing shows the moral bankruptcy of a people or a generation more than disregard for the sanctity of life and it is this atrophy of moral fibre that appears in the plea for the abolition of the death penalty for the heinous crime of murder.
It is surely true that most modern societies have an inadequate regard for human life and I think what lay behind the development of 2267 was the belief that capital punishment would only increase that disregard. It is not clear, however, that the opposite has not happened.*Is it possible for punishment to signify the gravity of crimes which deserve death if their perpetrators are never visited with execution? … How convincing is our reverence for life if its mockers are suffered to live? *(J. Budziszewski)
Ender
 
If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture (notably in Genesis 9:5-6 and Romans 13:1-4). (Cardinal Dulles)
Thanks for the homework. While I am no match for Cardinal Dulles, I certainly can read. Let’s take a look. Gen 9:5: Indeed for your own lifeblood I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from a human being, each one for the blood of another, I will demand an accounting for human life.

Romans 13:1-4 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.a2Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.3For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil.b Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,4for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.

OK, I’ve read them. I can clearly see in Genesis that GOD is worthy to pass judgement on a human being and it logically follows that when God commands a particular execution it is righteous. I’m not convinced that this means it is advisable and prudent for MAN to take it upon himself to make the judgement.

From Romans, it is clear that it is inappropriate to make the (common) argument that governments have no RIGHT to use the death penalty. It is not clear from this passage that governments SHOULD use it or when and where there are better solutions for the present such that judgement is left to God and his own timing.

It’s a good start, but nothing you’ve presented rises to the level of demonstrating the God WANTS us to impose the death penalty on murderers. The closest your citations get is that God doesn’t prohibit it. Big difference, IMO. God didn’t explicitly prohibit slavery for a lot of centuries either. Instead He gave us the principles via revelation necessary to eventually realize that human dignity and chattle slavery are mutually incompatible. The catechism argument that the death penalty should be reserved to situations of no viable alternative arises from similar logic.
 
Sadly, dear friend, in the degenerate days in which our lot is cast, the poison of humanism has directed sympathy to the criminal instead of the victim, which partly explains why there is such an intense dislike nowadays for the whole notion of retributive justice. This is a grave error which as at complete variance with the traditional teaching of Holy Mother Church upon this topic. Nothing shows the moral bankruptcy of a people or a generation more than disregard for the sanctity of life and it is this atrophy of moral fibre that appears in the plea for the abolition of the death penalty for the heinous crime of murder.
Take care, friend. This post indirectly implies that both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI (who both had profound influence on the wording of the catechism) are “poisoned by humanism.” I suggest that you refrain from ascribing nefarious motives to everyone who doesn’t fully agree with you.

Recognition of the remaining human dignity of the criminal was called for by Christ himself. Dont forget for a moment that the first man saved from condemnation by Christ was Barabas, a murderer. Interesting, no? It is a false dilemma to imply that one can only have human sympathy for either the criminal or his victim. BOTH were created in God’s image and can be saved only by Grace.
 
OK, I’ve read them. I can clearly see in Genesis that GOD is worthy to pass judgement on a human being and it logically follows that when God commands a particular execution it is righteous. I’m not convinced that this means it is advisable and prudent for MAN to take it upon himself to make the judgement.
There are some judgments that we are prohibited from making but there are others we are obligated to make, and one of those is about guilt and innocence if we are judges or juries.He who takes vengeance on the wicked in keeping with his rank and position does not usurp what belongs to God but makes use of the power granted him by God. For it is written (Romans 13:4) of the earthly prince that “he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Aquinas, ST II-II, 108 1 ad 1)
It’s a good start, but nothing you’ve presented rises to the level of demonstrating the God WANTS us to impose the death penalty on murderers. The closest your citations get is that God doesn’t prohibit it.
What kind of citations do you require?And as for “All that take the sword shall perish with the sword,” these words cannot be rightly understood except in this sense:* Every one who commits an unjust murder ought in turn to be condemned to death by the magistrate**. For Our Lord rebuked Peter not because a just defense is unlawful, but because he wished not so much to defend himself or Our Lord, as to avenge the injury done to Our Lord, although he himself had no official authority… *(St. Robert Bellarmine, De Laicis, ch 13)
Ender
 
Take care, friend. This post indirectly implies that both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI (who both had profound influence on the wording of the catechism) are “poisoned by humanism.” I suggest that you refrain from ascribing nefarious motives to everyone who doesn’t fully agree with you.

Recognition of the remaining human dignity of the criminal was called for by Christ himself. Dont forget for a moment that the first man saved from condemnation by Christ was Barabas, a murderer. Interesting, no? It is a false dilemma to imply that one can only have human sympathy for either the criminal or his victim. BOTH were created in God’s image and can be saved only by Grace.
Dear manualman,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

Quite true, dear friend, not every person who argues in favour of the abolition of the death penalty does so because they have been influenced by the ideology of secular humanism, but the fact is that many sadly do. Our contemporary Western world has become deeply suspicious of the whole concept of punishment for wrong doing and the judicial and penal systems tend to want to deal with criminals purely in terms of deterring or reforming them, not in terms of retribution. Alas, we are now living in a post-Christian era, when the authority and influence of the holy religion of Christ has drastically declined. Secular humanism has undeniably engendered a very ‘touchy-feely’ culture and we have come to pride ourselves on being a caring, tolerant, understanding and humanitarian society in which the harsh and allegedly outmoded concept of retributive justice has no place.

Whilst the current Church Catechism strongly discourages the death penalty it does not overtly condemn it either. This, dear friend, it clearly would not do, since the constant teaching of the Church has always held capital punishment to be morally licit and therefore permissible. Moreover, Holy Mother Church has never, unlike modern Western society, shied away from the concept of just retribution or penalties being commensurate with the crime - “The primary effect of punishment is to redress the disorder caused by the offence” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2266, added emphasis mine), which necessarily implies retributive justice. Earlier (see para, 2260) it actually references Genesis 9: 5-6 and then explicitly states that “This teaching remains necessary for all time”. In other words, the teaching of the Genesis passage, which unequivocally speaks the language of just retribution, continues to be perpetually valid and not subject to cultural variation. Blood is “a sacred sign of life” and thus should never be shed by “man’s murderous violence”. Moreover, as Genesis 9: 6 clearly states, man is created in God’s own image and so when violence in the form of murder is done to a man it is in effect an outrage against Almighty God that demands retributive justice, so as to “redress the disorder caused by the offence” (CCC, para. 2266). We have lost sight of the gravity of the offence of murder in the sight of God.

With regards to Barabas, dear friend, he was released from execution not by Christ but by Pontius Pilate - “And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will” (S. Lk. 23: 24, 25). Our Lord would have hardly intervened with this albeit gravely unjust and cowardly decision, for He knew that His purpose in coming into the world was to suffer death upon the Cross “for us men and our salvation”. The ancient prophecies must be fulfilled and Jesus must be delivered up - “The God of Abraham, and Issac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; who ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life…” (Acts 3: 13-15a). Moreover, by releasing Barabas from the execution that he so rightly deserved, the Gospel narrative evinces the stark contrast of the God-ordained religion prevailing against innocence in favour of brutal guilt. A hardened villain guilty of the worst crimes against human society was released, rather than Jesus - One Who had in numberless instances prolonged life, alleviated the sufferings of humanity, restored the dead to life and, above all, planted in innumerable souls the hope of life eternal. No, it is, dear friend, inappropriate to appeal to the case Barabas’s release to support not administering the death penalty for the heinous crime of murder.

Finally, you are correct in stating that both victim and criminal are created equally in the image of God, but that is the whole rationale for the death penalty and why God Himself mandated it at the first - “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed*: for in the image of God made he man*” (Gen. 9: 6, added emphasis mine). Of course we can have sympathy for a murderer, but that does not mean that to redress the disorder occasioned by his offence he should be spared the death penalty, for then there would be no just retribution commensurate with the crime.

God bless and this will be my final posting in this thread but I do pray that those viewing it will note carefully the weighty arguments in favour of capital punishment. The Catholic Church in its constant teaching has always held that the death penalty is morally licit and that the state, as “minister of God” (Rom. 13: 4) has the authority and duty to inflict it upon those guilty of murder. If God Himself instituted the death penalty for murder how can it be a barbaric and unworthy punishment that has no place within in civilised society?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
What kind of citations do you require?
And as for “All that take the sword shall perish with the sword,” these words cannot be rightly understood except in this sense:* Every one who commits an unjust murder ought in turn to be condemned to death by the magistrate***. For Our Lord rebuked Peter not because a just defense is unlawful, but because he wished not so much to defend himself or Our Lord, as to avenge the injury done to Our Lord, although he himself had no official authority… (St. Robert Bellarmine, De Laicis, ch 13)
A quote like that from Scripture or definitive magisterial authority would put a cork in me pretty thoroughly. But Bellarmine, like all saints, is not necessarily an infallible source. Surely you understand that or you’d have to be as anti-Semitic as Aquinas was in some of his writings, no? The behavior of individuals within the church does not establish church doctrine. Bellarmine clearly believed as you do. So did many, perhaps most through church history.

But the current catechism wording does NOT conflict with Tradition which clearly does say that the state has the authority to execute murderers. If you are to refute the catechism, you must find support in Tradition for your assertion that the state is OBLIGED to execute murderers. My assertion is that you’ve found support in tradition, but not Tradition (so to speak).
 
A quote like that from Scripture or definitive magisterial authority would put a cork in me pretty thoroughly. But Bellarmine, like all saints, is not necessarily an infallible source. Surely you understand that or you’d have to be as anti-Semitic as Aquinas was in some of his writings, no? The behavior of individuals within the church does not establish church doctrine. Bellarmine clearly believed as you do. So did many, perhaps most through church history.

But the current catechism wording does NOT conflict with Tradition which clearly does say that the state has the authority to execute murderers. If you are to refute the catechism, you must find support in Tradition for your assertion that the state is OBLIGED to execute murderers. My assertion is that you’ve found support in tradition, but not Tradition (so to speak).
 
A quote like that from Scripture or definitive magisterial authority would put a cork in me pretty thoroughly. But Bellarmine, like all saints, is not necessarily an infallible source.
Bellarmine was more than “merely” a saint, he is a Doctor of the Church. Your objection is valid however so here is a citation from his catechism which was approved by Clement XIII.Notwithstanding we see that Princes and Governors put thieves and other malefactors to death, who nevertheless are men, and it is not holden that they do evil herein, but well. Princes and Governors that have public authority, put malefactors to death, not as masters of men’s lives, but as ministers of God, as St. Paul saith. Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed, when they deserve it, that good men may be safe, and live in peace. And for this purpose God hath given the sword into the hands of Princes and Rulers to do justice, in defending the good, and chastising the bad. And so, when by public authority a malefactor is put to death, it is not called murder, but an act of justice: and whereas the commandment of God saith: Thou shalt not kill, it is understood, by thy private authority.
But the current catechism wording does NOT conflict with Tradition which clearly does say that the state has the authority to execute murderers. If you are to refute the catechism, you must find support in Tradition for your assertion that the state is OBLIGED to execute murderers. My assertion is that you’ve found support in tradition, but not Tradition (so to speak).
The church has always recognized that there could be valid exceptions when capital punishment should not be used so from that perspective there is no conflict between 2267 and Tradition. However here is another Doctor of the Church on whether capital punishment should be used:(Chap 5, 2) How doth the Scripture teach that willful murder is revenged?
In most grievous manner doubtless, as Almighty God sheweth in these words, wherein he rebuked Cain the first man: What hast thou done? saith he*, the voice of the blood of thy brother crieth to me from the earth. Now therefore shalt thou be cursed upon earth.* And in another place God’s own voice doth testify. Whoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed also, for to the image of God was man made. The kingly psalmist singeth:* Men** of blood shall not live half their days.* For this is a very heinous wickedness, and he doeth a most horrible injury to his neighbor, that bereaveth him of his life without lawful authority. For which cause,** Christ himself saith also. ***All that take the sword, shall perish with the sword. *(St. Peter Canisius, A Sum of Christian Doctrine)
There is of course Aquinas himself:Objection: Therefore it seems that the punishment of death should not be inflicted for a sin.
  • On the contrary, These punishments are fixed by divine law as appears from what we have said. *(ST II-II 108,3)
    Ender
 
Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed, when they deserve it, that good men may be safe, and live in peace.

For which cause,** Christ himself saith also. **All that take the sword, shall perish with the sword. (St. Peter Canisius, A Sum of Christian Doctrine)
Selective bolding can be a valid form of emphasis or a sneaky attempt to alter emphasis of a quote. I’d argue that the first excerpt above reads rather differently without the bold. Contextually, it was written in a time and era when secure imprisonment for life was an iffy proposition. Arguably, it reduces to the current catechism that emphasizes the protection of the innocent rather than the need for the state to act as God’s retribution against murderers.

The second quote merely reflects Christ’s teaching that violence begets more violence. It’s a stretch to claim that Jesus was instituting and sanctioning state death penaltys with that quote, even if it is a stretch performed by a saint.

I sense that you and I aren’t going to agree. 😉
 
Selective bolding can be a valid form of emphasis or a sneaky attempt to alter emphasis of a quote.
One might choose to argue that the phrase really means "God demands villains be executed* that good men be safe and live in peace**", and thus supports what 2267 says. In that case I would point out that if by this is meant safety is the paramount objective of punishment then it is a much too narrow an interpretation. It is not merely by physical protection that people are safeguarded but by the law and the existence of a just society. That same passage goes on to say that an execution is “an act of justice”; it does not refer to it as a means of protection. Beyond that is the necessity to protect the law itself, and this cannot be done by physical restraints.this retributive function of punishment is concerned not immediately with what is protected by the law but with the very law itself.* There is nothing more necessary for the national and international community than respect for the majesty of the law and the salutary thought that the law is sacred and protected, so that whoever breaks it is liable to punishment and will be punished’. (Pius XII)
Contextually, it was written in a time and era when secure imprisonment for life was an iffy proposition.
There is nothing in the passage that suggests its doctrine is dependent on the capabilities of various societies. Besides, the assertion that earlier societies lacked the means to impose life sentences is doubtful. What seems more accurate is that they saw life imprisonment for the crime of murder to be inappropriate. Ancient societies appear to have had the means to protect themselves - galleys, mines, dungeons, slavery, banishment.
Arguably, it reduces to the current catechism that emphasizes the protection of the innocent rather than the need for the state to act as God’s retribution against murderers.
It is the state’s obligation to act as God’s agent for retribution. That is a positive duty. 2266 Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties
The second quote merely reflects Christ’s teaching that violence begets more violence. It’s a stretch to claim that Jesus was instituting and sanctioning state death penaltys with that quote, even if it is a stretch performed by a saint.
You make another assertion without providing a citation to support it. The interpretation you reject was made by a Doctor of the Church (Canisius), and supported by another Doctor of the Church (Bellarmine) who gave the gave the exact same explanation. Why should we reject their understanding?
I sense that you and I aren’t going to agree.
Well I hope not too soon or we would have nothing to discuss.

Ender
 
You make another assertion without providing a citation to support it. The interpretation you reject was made by a Doctor of the Church (Canisius), and supported by another Doctor of the Church (Bellarmine) who gave the gave the exact same explanation. Why should we reject their understanding?
And that’s your best bottom line argument,no doubt. Unfortunately, the same line of reasoning can be made to argue that is is morally acceptable to execute people for heresy as well as murder.

I confess to being a bit of a cheater in that I give the benefit of the doubt to current authoritative teaching and in the face of what SEEMS to be conflicting evidence in past church teaching I simply look for ways in which they might not actually conflict in the ways they seem to. That’s not necessarily good method for a scholar, but I’m not a scholar!

In this case, the only way I see to harmonize the seeming conflict between today’s catechism teaching and the myriad of older quotes you and like minded folks bring up is the way in which doctrine has developed over time. The apostles didn’t give terribly precise teachings on the Trinity, for example. There had to be a lot of arguments among good, sincere and holy people before they landed on a doctrine that fit ALL the facts of revelation without any actual conflicts.

Fast forward many years down the road and look at the issue of slavery. It’s true that the church has never formally taught that slavery is morally acceptable. But it took an embarassingly long time for her to formally teach that chattle slavery ISN’T morally acceptable. This is also doctrinal development (more precisely, moral theology flowing from doctrine). Over time, new things aren’t added to revelation, but things become more clearly articulated. I like to compare it to an image in a telescope that is gradually brought into better and better focus. I think capital punishment is one of those things. Not because I’m smarter than saints of old, but because the catechism teaches it and I believe the apostles and their successors are lead by the Holy
Spirit to a steadily more clear understanding of the revelation God has given us. Things can go forward and become clear, but they can’t go backward and repudiate things clear before. The idea that the state has the authority, but not the obligation, to use the death penalty fits this test. That’s a lot more acceptable idea to me than the idea that the church has erred and now formally teaches error in the catechism. You make good arguments, but you can’t overcome that final problem to my eyes.
 
Who put Abby Johnson in charge of the pro-Life movement anyway? She was providing abortions a few years ago… Now she is lecturing pro-Lifer’s about the immorality of the death penalty for murderers?

I’m thinking this gal is going to burn herself out if she doesn’t stick to the issue at hand, abortion. I get that it has implications for other issues, but if she doesn’t focus on keeping the people on her issue TOGETHER, rather than wedging some of them apart, she’s not doing anybody any favors.

Abby, from this nobody to big celebrity you, please don’t tell me that it’s a sin that I think Gosnell should be executed. I do think he should be executed. And no, you yourself admitted you did not do the same things as him, so I do not think you should be executed. Your situation is completely different. It’s not all about you, anyway.
 
I confess to being a bit of a cheater in that I give the benefit of the doubt to current authoritative teaching and in the face of what SEEMS to be conflicting evidence in past church teaching I simply look for ways in which they might not actually conflict in the ways they seem to.
There is no conflict between past and present teaching if 2267 is accepted as prudential. The church has always held that capital punishment should not be applied if it was a threat to the public and I believe that was why JPII opposed its use.
In this case, the only way I see to harmonize the seeming conflict between today’s catechism teaching and the myriad of older quotes you and like minded folks bring up is the way in which doctrine has developed over time.
Development does not include repudiation. Change cannot go so far as to reverse what was taught before.
Things can go forward and become clear, but they can’t go backward and repudiate things clear before. The idea that the state has the authority, but not the obligation, to use the death penalty fits this test.
Perhaps so, but 2267 goes much further than this and has virtually banned the state from using capital punishment. It has for all practical purposes denied the state that authority.
That’s a lot more acceptable idea to me than the idea that the church has erred and now formally teaches error in the catechism. You make good arguments, but you can’t overcome that final problem to my eyes.
I don’t accept that the church teaches error either, either now or in the past. The only approach that reconciles (for me) the past and the present is to view 2267 as prudential, as Cardinal Dulles did.

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