ABC is not intrinsically evil when medical reason_1

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Ella said:
*"But, your intention is to contracept. Just changing the name does not change the *intent."

Is that his intent? Perhaps someone really does want kids, doesn’t want to contracept, but knows that she cannot have children because if she gets pregnant she and the child will die. In this situation the ability to conceive is not a ‘normal function’ because it always results in her death. Thus why must she preserve the ability to conceive? I think that is what Josea is asking.

Also, I know that on the Internet people can pretend they are someone in a situation, and Josea might not really have a wife with this sort of condition, but on the chance that he does, remember that you are talking to someone who very well may never have children, and that is a sadness that he is having to bear. I will pray for you and your family, Josea.

Ella,

As Josea has offered in previous threads, he and his wife are blessed with 3 children, he simply wants to enjoy the *unitive *aspect of conjugal love but avoid/remove the procreative aspect due to the assessed life threatening risk to his wife/baby with a furture pregnancy.
 
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felra:
Ella,

As Josea has offered in previous threads, he and his wife are blessed with 3 children, he simply wants to enjoy the *unitive *aspect of conjugal love but avoid/remove the procreative aspect.
Dear felra,

How do you know that we would not likje to have more children?
Are you able to judge my intentions? 😦
Do you remember Somebody saying something about judging?
That is very very christian.
Bye,
Jose
 
Ella,

As Josea has offered in previous threads, he and his wife are blessed with 3 children, he simply wants to enjoy the *unitive *aspect of conjugal love but avoid/remove the procreative aspect due to the assessed life threatening risk to his wife/baby with a furture pregnancy. images/buttons_cad/quote.gif

But Felra, the procreative aspect already cannot happen because if it does, she will die. There is no way that her being fertile can result in a birth. Thus, in a sense, she is already sterile.

This is an interesting discussion.
 
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josea:
Dear felra,

How do you know that we would not likje to have more children?
Are you able to judge my intentions? 😦
Do you remember Somebody saying something about judging?
That is very very christian.
Bye,
Jose
I apologize if I can across as judging your intentions or desire for more children, that was not what I was speaking to.

To quote myself “he simply wants to enjoy the *unitive *aspect of conjugal love but avoid/remove the procreative aspect due to the assessed life threatening risk to his wife/baby with a furture pregnancy”, a factual statement about wanting to avoid the life threatening *risk *incumbent with future pregnancy–nothing about intent/desire for more kids there. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 
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felra:
I apologize if I can across as judging your intentions or desire for more children, that was not what I was speaking to.

To quote myself “he simply wants to enjoy the *unitive *aspect of conjugal love but avoid/remove the procreative aspect due to the assessed life threatening risk to his wife/baby with a furture pregnancy”, a factual statement about wanting to avoid the life threatening *risk *incumbent with future pregnancy–nothing about intent/desire for more kids there. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
I realized afterwards that you had not intended it. Apologies accepted and please accept also mines.
Jose
 
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josea:
The same is also being considered in the case of condoms and aids.
Regards,
Jose
This statement is problematic. Theologians, of varying degress of orthodoxy, have discussed it. The Church has not said She is studying the issue. Do you have references that claim she is?
 
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Ella:
But Felra, the procreative aspect already cannot happen because if it does, she will die. There is no way that her being fertile can result in a birth. Thus, in a sense, she is already sterile.

This is an interesting discussion.
As has been pointed out several times, this issue is not knew. The Church has addressed it before. Direct sterilization may never be done.
 
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fix:
This statement is problematic. Theologians, of varying degress of orthodoxy, have discussed it. The Church has not said She is studying the issue. Do you have references that claim she is?
That’s a bit of an exageration. A small minority of bishops and other Church officials have made statements that there might be a way to theologically justify condom use in some narrowly defined circumstances. The Church and Vatican officials have repeatedly stated that condom use is not acceptable, ever.

It wouldn’t be fair to make it seem like this is an issue where there is widespread disagreement within the Church on the morality of condom use.
 
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kmktexas:
That’s a bit of an exageration. A small minority of bishops and other Church officials have made statements that there might be a way to theologically justify condom use in some narrowly defined circumstances. The Church and Vatican officials have repeatedly stated that condom use is not acceptable, ever.

It wouldn’t be fair to make it seem like this is an issue where there is widespread disagreement within the Church on the morality of condom use.
How does your post disagree with mine?
 
Sorry Fix,

I didn’t mean to disagree. I just wanted to point out that those who are debating are in the extreme minority lest anyone think it was currently a theological “toss up”. 😃
 
It still sounds very much as if the real issue here is sex. A voluntary act that can be abstained from. If Josea really wanted to be open to further children if medical science progressed enough to fix the problem, then he wouldn’t be considering voluntary sterilization now. It would be pretty hard for medical science to “fix” something that has already been removed. He maintains that this is not contraception, but merely a precaution against a possible complication. However, the church has never said that ANY solution is a moral solution. It has said what is NOT moral, and that includes voluntary sterilization. There are other solutions, namely NFP or abstinence, that the church says are moral, but Josea doesn’t seem to want to accept those as his only choices. He wants to do something else, and is thus arguing for it. He wants to claim that the reproductive system is faulty, thus allowing for its removal. However, faulty doesn’t equal medically necessary. Without the medical necessity, the removal of the organs is not allowed. There is no special case here. And not being able to have sex is not the ending of a marriage. If you think so, I’d suggest you contact some quad- and paraplegics who would be willing to share their marriage tips.

As a final note, there have been documents by several theologians (not just one dissenting figure) that have spoken on the issue of ectopic pregnancies. In this case, the woman and child will die so the pregnancy is not viable. By far the least (medically) complicated treatment and the one most often suggested by medical professionals is to take MTX, basically a radioactive drug that will kill the baby, thus causing a miscarriage, that usually doesn’t involve surgery or any other “ill effects” for the woman. However, this is not morally acceptable, despite the many doctors who support it as the best for the woman. Instead, the only morally acceptable option involves surgery to remove part or all of the tube, thus hampering further reproductive efforts. I’ll bet Josea wouldn’t understand that either. Here is a quote form the article:

“for an act to be morally licit, not only must the intended effect be good, but also the act itself must be good. For this reason, most moralists agree that MTX does not withstand the application of the principle of double effect.” Sounds to me like the same applies here. Direct sterilization to prevent procreation is wrong, regardless of the intended good effect of saving the woman from dying should the pregnancy occur.
 
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TAS2000:
It still sounds very much as if the real issue here is sex. A voluntary act that can be abstained from. If Josea really wanted to be open to further children if medical science progressed enough to fix the problem, then he wouldn’t be considering voluntary sterilization now. It would be pretty hard for medical science to “fix” something that has already been removed. He maintains that this is not contraception, but merely a precaution against a possible complication. However, the church has never said that ANY solution is a moral solution. It has said what is NOT moral, and that includes voluntary sterilization. There are other solutions, namely NFP or abstinence, that the church says are moral, but Josea doesn’t seem to want to accept those as his only choices. He wants to do something else, and is thus arguing for it. He wants to claim that the reproductive system is faulty, thus allowing for its removal. However, faulty doesn’t equal medically necessary. Without the medical necessity, the removal of the organs is not allowed. There is no special case here. And not being able to have sex is not the ending of a marriage. If you think so, I’d suggest you contact some quad- and paraplegics who would be willing to share their marriage tips.

As a final note, there have been documents by several theologians (not just one dissenting figure) that have spoken on the issue of ectopic pregnancies. In this case, the woman and child will die so the pregnancy is not viable. By far the least (medically) complicated treatment and the one most often suggested by medical professionals is to take MTX, basically a radioactive drug that will kill the baby, thus causing a miscarriage, that usually doesn’t involve surgery or any other “ill effects” for the woman. However, this is not morally acceptable, despite the many doctors who support it as the best for the woman. Instead, the only morally acceptable option involves surgery to remove part or all of the tube, thus hampering further reproductive efforts. I’ll bet Josea wouldn’t understand that either. Here is a quote form the article:

“for an act to be morally licit, not only must the intended effect be good, but also the act itself must be good. For this reason, most moralists agree that MTX does not withstand the application of the principle of double effect.” Sounds to me like the same applies here. Direct sterilization to prevent procreation is wrong, regardless of the intended good effect of saving the woman from dying should the pregnancy occur.
This post sounds like the nail in the coffin on this thread for making ABC licit for “medical reason”.
 
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josea:
and I insist: I am not talking about contraception but about “prophylactic sterilization” for very serious medical reasons.
As I understand the thread:
Prophylactic sterilization: To sterilize the normal reprodcuctive function of the genitals so that pregnancy cannot occur because that ‘would’ cause a potentially harmful side-effect if pregnancy would occur.

Translation:
Sterilize myself or wife so we don’t have to worry about getting pregnant because pregnancy might cause harm or death.

Ends justifying the means
End—protect wife from deathly condition brought on by pregnancy
means-sterilization

Basically directly negating the order of the marriage act (immoral) to bring about a good.

These are the conditions for double effect to be used. See if they are met in this thread…I would like to know what others think but I already see the truth.
· The intended act must be good in itself. The intended act may not be morally evil.

· The good effect of the act must be that which is directly intended by the one who carries out the act. The

bad effect that results from the act may be foreseen by the agent but must be unintended.

· The good effect must not be brought about by using morally evil means.

· The good effect must be of equal or greater proportion to any evil effect which would result.

· Acts that have morally negative effects are permissible only when truly necessary, i.e., when there are no

other means by which the good may be obtained.

Under the mercy,

Matt
 
The main principle I am calling in this case to justify preventive sterilization is the principle of Integrity and Totality and not the double effect.

Principles of Integrity and Totality

These principles dictate that the well-being of the whole person must be taken into account in deciding about any therapeutic intervention or use of technology (see Ethical and Religious Directives, nn. 29 and 33). Therapeutic procedures that are likely to cause harm or undesirable side effects can be justified only by a proportionate benefit to the patient. In this context, “integrity” refers to each individual’s duty to “preserve a view of the whole human person in which the values of the intellect, will, conscience, and fraternity are pre-eminent” (Gaudium et Spes, n. 61). “Totality” refers to the duty to preserve intact the physical component of the integrated bodily and spiritual nature of human life, whereby every part of the human body “exists for the sake of the whole as the imperfect for the sake of the perfect” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, Question 65, Article 1). Accordingly, a part of the human body may be sacrificed if that sacrifice means continued survival for the person.

Thus, it is clear that preventive sterilization gives a “proportionate benefit to the patient” allowing sexual relations between spouses (otherwise impossible). This is a great value that should be preserved according to to Gaudium et Spes, n. 61. and a part of the human body may be sacrificed to preserve the integrity of the whole human person. Period.

I did not try to apply the principle of double effect because I do not see it necessary as the principle of integrity and totality already answer the question and also the problem of the undesirable side effect is included. But let’s have a look to the other principle:
 
** Principle of double effect**

· The intended act must be good in itself. The intended act may not be morally evil. Sterilization like other medical amputation it is not by itself intrinsic evil. That’s obvious.

** **· The good effect of the act must be that which is directly intended by the one who carries out the act. The bad effect that results from the act may be foreseen by the agent but must be unintended.
The primary and only intention is to permit the exercise of a great value for the person by impairing possibility of death when that value is preserved; the impossibility of conception by the means used to achieve the first goal are the secondary unwanted effect.

·** The good effect must not be brought about by using morally evil means. ** Sterilization is not necessarily an evil mean.

· The good effect must be of equal or greater proportion to any evil effect which would result. This is obvious. The good effect here is that the woman will not be killed when involved in sexual activity.

· Acts that have morally negative effects are permissible only when truly necessary, i.e., when there are no other means by which the good may be obtained. As I already said it is presumptuous to declare that the best method to avoid a risky pregnancy is NFP. That might no work for every woman. The only 100% effective method is the complete removal of the reproductive system.

So, it looks to me that the application of both principles seems to point to the same conclusion. Of course, if you flaw one of the premises by, for instance, saying that sterilization is always intrinsically evil the principles can not be applied.

That is the point of view of many theologians and, among them, the Church authorities that I already mention.

Jose
 
· Acts that have morally negative effects are permissible only when truly necessary, i.e., when there are **no other means ** by which the good may be obtained.As I already said it is presumptuous to declare that the best method to avoid a risky pregnancy is NFP. That might no work for every woman. The only 100% effective method is the complete removal of the reproductive system.
So, it looks to me that the application of both principles seems to point to the same conclusion. Of course, if you flaw one of the premises by, for instance, saying that sterilization is always intrinsically evil the principles can not be applied.
But you have just answered your own question. Besides NFP, there is abtinence for a period of time until either natural fertility passes, the medical condition passes or other treatments become available.

Now this, of course, depends on how you are defining the “good” that you are seeking to obtain. Is the intended good result the continued good health of the spouse or the ability to continue sexual activity without the possibility of children?
 
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kmktexas:
But you have just answered your own question. Besides NFP, there is abtinence for a period of time until either natural fertility passes, the medical condition passes or other treatments become available.

Now this, of course, depends on how you are defining the “good” that you are seeking to obtain. Is the intended good result the continued good health of the spouse or the ability to continue sexual activity without the possibility of children?
Well, I am just talking about preventive sterilization in general. But as I said before a temporal sterilization would leave open the possibility of a new medical treatment to correct the problems.

regards,
Jose
 
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kmktexas:
But you have just answered your own question. Besides NFP, there is abtinence for a period of time until either natural fertility passes, the medical condition passes or other treatments become available.

Now this, of course, depends on how you are defining the “good” that you are seeking to obtain. Is the intended good result the continued good health of the spouse or the ability to continue sexual activity without the possibility of children?
Sorry, I missundertood you. The good that we are seeking here is to preserve the great unitive value of sexual relationshipbetween spouses and not to lose it just becuase the reproductive apparatus is defective. The impossibility of having children after the treatment is the unwanted effect.
 
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