Aborted babies go to hell!?!?

[shocktrooper]

I think the belief is dangerous only to truly disturbed people. One might also argue that it is good to kill someone immediately after they have confessed their sins since they would then have a very good chance of going to heaven; but who but a disturbed individual would think this is a charitable thing to do?

The sanity of this position is irrelevant. No one is advocating for this to be done but is simply being used to demonstrate the absurdity of some of the positions being put forth in this thread. It is a logical conclusion to the thought that all unborn babies go to heaven. It would turn the abortionists into priests. The fact that the souls of these unborn babies are in grave danger is precisely the reason abortion is evil.

If an aborted baby was sent to heaven, then why would the devil be so fixated on it? He surely has other ways at getting to those already walking around.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t know why you would report it to the mods but ok.

The point is that this grotesque view comes about if we truly BELIEVE your position i.e. all babies dying before baptism go to heaven. The connection of the above conclusion to your belief is that it is the resultant conclusion of your belief i.e. killing someone as a baby is the most charitable thing to do.

This is why I said you should hope that the babies be saved rather than believe that they are indeed saved. The belief leads to a “grotesque” conclusion.

Uh, no.

We need to stop talking about this.

 

[Debora123]

Well, what about this?

Baptism removes original sin.
Infants, when receving baptism, are cleansed of original sin.
Infants are incapable of actual sin.
Since they have been cleansed of original sin and are inacapable of actual sin, baptized infants are guaranteed heaven, until they reach the age of reason, when they are capable of sin.
Killing baptized infants assures them of heaven, so it is the greatest act of love towards a baptized infant.

The fact that some idiot or mentally disturbed person could use the belief that aborted babies go to heaven is a reason why Debora should not hold her beliefs is about as logical as the idea that we should stop baptizing infants bdecause some idiot or mentally disturbed person could use infant baptism to justify murdering baptized infants.

Precisely.

 

[Eufrosnia]

The sanity of this position is irrelevant. No one is advocating for this to be done but is simply being used to demonstrate the absurdity of some of the positions being put forth in this thread. It is a logical conclusion to the thought that all unborn babies go to heaven. It would turn the abortionists into priests. T**he fact that the souls of these unborn babies are in grave danger is precisely the reason abortion is evil.

If an aborted baby was sent to heaven, then why would the devil be so fixated on it? He surely has other ways at getting to those already walking around.**

That too is a good point.

But one could argue that the devil is fixated on persecuting Christians. The persecution itself can lead to martyrdom and lots of Christians being saved. That would indeed be true.

What the devil would be after is the ones who will leave the faith as the result of persecutions and those who are engaged in persecutions. In the case of abortions, one can say that the devil is after those who are committing the abortions, parents and doctors and those who support and legislate in favor of it.

So I agree with you that abortion is a grave matter. I would say it is grave because it is outright against the will of God in many ways

1. in its murder of innocent life
2. in its rejection of new life
3. in its promotion of a culture of death

 

[Debora123]

No one is advocating for this to be done but is simply being used to demonstrate the absurdity of some of the positions being put forth in this thread.

This is making less and less sense.

So it’s absurd to think that unbaptized children to go heaven because it demonstrates the thought process of some psycho who would use this as an excuse for abortion?

As others have pointed out, this same thought process can be used to kill someone right out of confession or right after baptism.

This makes 0 logical sense.

It’s completely inappropriate to even be making this connection in the first place.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Uh, no.

We need to stop talking about this.

Sure.

But please read Post #136.

It speaks about why it is not ok to believe that all infants who died before baptism go to heaven. If you have the time, do read the whole article.

 

[Eufrosnia]

This is making less and less sense.

So it’s absurd to think that unbaptized children to go heaven because it demonstrates the thought process of some psycho who would use this as an excuse for abortion?

As others have pointed out, this same thought process can be used to kill someone right out of confession or right after baptism.

This makes 0 logical sense.

It’s completely inappropriate to even be making this connection in the first place.

To be fair, it makes logical sense. As in the conclusion follows from the premises. It just doesn’t make a convincing case because the conclusion is something prohibited from following by the Catholic faith.

 

[Debora123]

Yeah, this has gotten wayyyy low guys. No point whatsoever for me to continue in discussions like these. Two people have already messaged me and suggested I leave the thread, as some of these posts have gotten more and more out there. I think I’ll do just that.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Yeah, this has gotten wayyyy low guys. No point whatsoever for me to continue in discussions like these. Two people have already messaged me and suggested I leave the thread, as some of these posts have gotten more and more out there. I think I’ll do just that.

I think there is a rather friendly discussion taking place here. Lots of arguments have been exchanged and most of us have come to know something interesting.

Was it the mods that told you to stop posting ?

Anyway, nice talking to you!

 

[Debora123]

Was it the mods that told you to stop posting ?

No, just a couple other posters who were completely disturbed by some of the things being said here.

I’m out.

 

[Eufrosnia]

No, just a couple other posters who were completely disturbed by some of the things being said here.

I’m out.

I believe you

Anyway, I hope you do take the time to read that article I posted. I talks about a more legitimate case against believing that aborted babies are saved and explain why we must HOPE.

good night!

 

[Maria1993]

**" The fact that the souls of these unborn babies are in grave danger is precisely the reason abortion is evil.

If an aborted baby was sent to heaven, then why would the devil be so fixated on it? He surely has other ways at getting to those already walking around."**

Well, what about the souls of the ones who were miscarried huh? The ones that were NOT aborted?

 

[TopResearcher]

I just read a thread about this topic and I read some pretty disturbing things…

here is the link forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=104494

***Council of Lyons II: “…The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished with different punishments…-- (Denzinger 464)

Council of Florence: “…Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.— (Denzinger 693)

Pope John XXII: “It (The Roman Church) teaches… that the souls… of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places.” (Denzinger 493(a).

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my father’s house there are many mansions”(JN14:2): that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the lord says :“Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God”(Jn3:5), what Catholic will doubt that he will be partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a co-heir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left” (Denzinger 102 fn.2; 30th edition)***

**St. Augustine … in the course of the controversy he himself condemned, and persuaded the Council of Carthage (418) to condemn, the substantially identical Pelagian teaching affirming the existence of “an intermediate place, or of any place anywhere at all (ullus alicubi locus), in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness” (Denzinger 102).

Tradition holds that Zosimus published the canons of Council of Carthage as his own making them infallable in his famous Tractoria", in which Pelagianism and its authors were condemned.

“Thus, finally, the occupant of the Apostolic See at the right moment maintained with all authority the traditional dogma of the Church, and protected the truth of the Church against error.” (catholic Ecyclo. “Zosimus”)That is Why Denzinger 102 under the section of Zosimus in the Denzinger**

Babies can’t go to Hell.

God bless, Aaron

 

[shocktrooper]

**" The fact that the souls of these unborn babies are in grave danger is precisely the reason abortion is evil.

If an aborted baby was sent to heaven, then why would the devil be so fixated on it? He surely has other ways at getting to those already walking around."**

Well, what about the souls of the ones who were miscarried huh? The ones that were NOT aborted?

Maria, have you read all the comments in the thread? I suggest you go back since we discussed ALL unborn babies. I guess the short answer is …

“As for the souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, they go down immediately to hell to be punished with different punishments” (Council of Lyons II).

We should pray for all the unborn, asking and hoping God saves them via baptism in a way we do not know. Also, we have the teaching on limbo that is not as popular today but can’t be cast aside.

God bless.

 

[agnes_therese]

If an aborted baby was sent to heaven, then why would the devil be so fixated on it?

**
Obviously**, because of what it does to the souls of those who have/commit/procure abortions. To Satan, the babies are just the means to an end.

 

[shocktrooper]

No, just a couple other posters who were completely disturbed by some of the things being said here.

I’m out.

Just for the record, it is called hyperbole. No one was even hinting that those things should be made reality.

God bless.

 

[Tigg]

The Church has laid out boundaries for us based off the teachings of Christ and other divine revelations. She clearly lays out objectively how one goes to hell and how one is rewarded with heaven.

I think language is important. If you are asserting your own opinion then that is fine as long as you realize it is conflict with what the Church teaches and accept what the Church teaches as truth. If you “believe” (accept as truth) that all unborn children go to heaven, then you are denying a clear doctrine of the Church. Again, as others have mention, it is perfectly acceptable to say you hope and pray that all unborn babies go to heaven and that it is very possible due to the mercy of God But to canonize all unborn babies is dangerous to the deposit of faith. Just as we are not allowed to judge someone to hell because we are not God, we are likewise not allowed to judge someone to heaven because we are not God.

Also, would it be safe to assume that you never pray for the unborn dead since they, in your mind, are already in heaven?

An absolutely clear and concise post which gets to the heart of the matter!

 

[shocktrooper]

**
Obviously**, because of what it does to the souls of those who have/commit/procure abortions. To Satan, the babies are just the means to an end.

I don’t think it is obvious, but possible. But let’s think it out a little more.

If a person is going in to have an abortion, would it be logical to assume or merely possible they are already in mortal sin due to sexual impurity or even thinking about killing the child out of selfishness or avarice? The abortionists have surely done the procedure before, so surely they are already in the devils grasp. The sure win for the devil is the unborn, as far as we know, since anyone outside the womb has the chance to repent and turn away from the sin, but the unborn doesn’t. If I were the enemy, I would take out the other forces before they were deployed if given the chance. Why wait until they are deploy and have a chance to fight against me? There is no reason for the devil to use the child’s death as a tool to gain the souls of others; he likely already has their soul due to all the other sins he perverts us with.

From a devil’s perspective, one would not be in his right mind if he chose a tactic that had a 50% chance of winning over one that was a 100% sure thing. Unless, of course, playing the game is more important than winning it.

Jesus said to “let the children come unto me”. What better way to prevent this, from Satan’s perspective, then to kill them before given the chance? Now this may lead some to argue that God would not send one who has not freely chosen to reject Him to hell for eternal punishment, and I would agree. This is why limbo is a sound theological hypothesis. It can’t just be so easily dismissed.

Now, God has tricked the devil before with his victory over him with the Cross, so I am perfectly happy to know that this may be the case with unborn children. The devil’s sure win may wind up being a total victory for the unborn. However, we should not presume this is the case, but pray and hope.

 

[Lochias]

Well if you’re going to get mad whenever someone disagrees with you then you must have a very sad life.

A Catholic is not permitted to ascribe infallible certainty to mere theological opinion.

Jesus had some harsh words for the Pharisees, who blindly followed the letter of the law without listening to the new things that he was telling them. We know that souls who have never been to Jesus, but have done good things, are capable of being saved through the actions and sufferings of others.

Unbaptized babies, logically, would be even more likely to merit (through no action of their own or others) God’s mercy and saving grace, as they are as innocent as can possibly be for a human being.

Therefore, based on the ENTIRETY of what the Church has taught and what we know of Jesus, I will say that it could very well be an infallible certainty to assume that innocent babies go to heaven.

You may now officially push your glasses back up your nose and stop staring down it at other people.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending mod review.