Abortion and politics

[Geremia]

Because I understand the gray various people of faith see on what occurs at the moment of conception. And apparently I guess unlike you I would rather continue living in a democracy of various faiths rather than in a theocracy.

I have asked you before, but why? Why would you prefer that?

And not force my faith onto everyone else.

Have you read Nostra Ætate and other similar Vatican II documents? Their gist is basically that: to setup a society in which people can freely choose to be Catholic and not be forced to convert; “religious freedom.” But how are people free outside the full means to free themselves of sin, i.e., outside the Church and Her sacraments? In a secular society as is ours that throws out God and worships idols?

I know he’s not a Catholic either by the standards of many on CAF despite the Church teaching he is. But Joe Biden can explain it better than I. He gave a great explanation during the 2008 campaign. Maybe check out what JFK had to say a half century ago as well about Rome dictating American politics.

Maybe these people aren’t really Catholic? I true Catholic politician would not live a split life. Both JFK and Biden were and have been instrumental in promoting abortion. Coincidence or intentional?

 

[Geremia]

Oh my just when I thought I had heard it all. It gets even sillier. Our belief that the soul enters the body at the moment of conception is black and white but everything else is debatable?

If you deny knowing when the soul enters the body, you deny knowing exactly whether any particular human has a soul, which, I thought you previously said, you did not deny; I thought you think all humans have souls.

Maybe you believe humans are animals before becoming human upon receiving a soul? Then you would be unsure whether I, e.g., am just a brute animal or a human, and hopefully you don’t consider me a brute animal.

Huh? We have no proof just our faith and belief that the human soul has entered the body right at the moment of conception.

And because it is based on reason-backed belief that means faith can and/or should change?

But human beings denied health insurance because they have a pre-existing condition. Or someone sick and their insurance won’t cover something. Or someone has to choose between food and medication because they can’t afford both. Or someone homeless or hungry or thirsty.

How does this follow from what you said before? I’m confused.

The people Jesus actually talked about serving and taking care of are somehow debatable?

Who said that is what we’re arguing?

 

[Geremia]

And there are atheists and agnostics right here on CAF who show more compassion for the sick and the poor than I have experienced some Catholics doing on various threads throughout the CAF family.

Your point?

 

[CMatt25]

I have asked you before, but why? Why would you prefer that?Have you read Nostra Ætate and other similar Vatican II documents? Their gist is basically that: to setup a society in which people can freely choose to be Catholic and not be forced to convert; “religious freedom.” But how are people free outside the full means to free themselves of sin, i.e., outside the Church and Her sacraments? In a secular society as is ours that throws out God and worships idols?Maybe these people aren’t really Catholic? I true Catholic politician would not live a split life. Both JFK and Biden were and have been instrumental in promoting abortion. Coincidence or intentional?

Anyone can freely choose to be Catholic now. What’s stopping them if they so choose. People on CAF are in RCIA all the time. So that’s one reason why. Now if you’re talking about the Catholic Church dictating law. Sorry but then that’s another reason. I don’t want to live in a dictatorship or in a religious theocracy that sets up a nation’s laws even if no one would be forced to join the Catholic Church. Effectively they would still be forced to follow the faith if it is the law of the land. Perhaps someone though could come from overseas then and invade us like we did in Iraq.

God is not thrown out. I worship God all the time. Don’t you?

If “these people” are not Catholic then perhaps all of you who go against Church teaching and think they’re not, are not Catholic then either. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say Joe Biden is not Catholic because he dissents on something. But you dissent on Catholic teaching on who is considered a Catholic. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

If you deny knowing when the soul enters the body, you deny knowing exactly whether any particular human has a soul, which, I thought you previously said, you did not deny; I thought you think all humans have souls.

Maybe you believe humans are animals before becoming human upon receiving a soul? Then you would be unsure whether I, e.g., am just a brute animal or a human, and hopefully you don’t consider me a brute animal.

And because it is based on reason-backed belief that means faith can and/or should change?How does this follow from what you said before? I’m confused.Who said that is what we’re arguing?

I have no idea why you are confused. Yes I believe humans have a soul. You’re typing I presume your posts. Yep you’re human with a soul.

I don’t really care if your faith changes or not. But one faith should not be law of the land. Have you not heard of separation of Church and state? Christians don’t agree on the abortion issue in the realm of politics. Why should the Catholic position take precedent if a majority disagree? Just because the Catholic Church proclaims to be and interprets itself as the Church?

If you want to live in a state run by the Catholic Church, there’s always the Vatican.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City#Political_system

"The government of Vatican City has a unique structure. The Pope is the sovereign of the state. Legislative authority is vested in the Pontifical Commission for Vatican City State, a body of cardinals appointed by the Pope for five-year periods. Executive power is in the hands of the President of that commission, assisted by the General Secretary and Deputy General Secretary. **The state’s foreign relations are entrusted to the Holy See’s Secretariat of State **and diplomatic service. Nevertheless, the pope has full and absolute executive, legislative and judicial power over Vatican City. He is currently the only absolute monarch in Europe.

Sounds right up your alley as a state you would like to reside in and be in servitude to.

Someone said abortion was not debatable but argued and I quote, “every other issue you bring into this is debatable”.

Hope that helps! God bless and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Your point?

The poster I was responding to had brought up atheists. My point was I responding to her also about atheists. Peace.

 

[dmelosi]

dmelosi, we have related threads going on at once and you guys have been keeping me busy! I’ve been talking about Christ’s words in Matt 25:35-46 as issues the Church should be emphasizing more. If I’m mixing up the threads please forgive me. I’m not so sure though the disagreement is really abortion or simply what the law should be in a secular democratic society of plural faiths and beliefs on the abortion matter. God bless you always and peace.

The disagreement sure appears to be whether abortion is a life or death issue.

You can’t know the harm you are doing by making it other than that.

You keep bringing up several social issues and lumping it with abortion. I haven’t seen anyone on this thread disagree with you with those, yet you keep bringing them up as if there is a disagreement. The thread is abortion and politics, yet you keep adding them to the thread to apparently ease your guilt for promoting abortion. Making excuses like you have been, is nothing but promoting abortion.

 

[Geremia]

The poster I was responding to had brought up atheists. My point was I responding to her also about atheists. Peace.

Just because atheists do good works does not mean that they are essentially the same as Catholics.

 

[Geremia]

Anyone can freely choose to be Catholic now. What’s stopping them if they so choose. People on CAF are in RCIA all the time. So that’s one reason why. Now if you’re talking about the Catholic Church dictating law. Sorry but then that’s another reason.

Interestingly, some people think She does this already, when really She is just proclaiming truth.

I don’t want to live in a dictatorship or in a religious theocracy that sets up a nation’s laws even if no one would be forced to join the Catholic Church.

So somehow the arbitrary democratic means of determining which laws are just and should be enforced is better? That is what has happened with abortion. A very slight majority says it is permissible, whereas we Catholics know from Revelation that “Thou shalt not kill” is the truth. Democracy and relativism of truth are concomitant.

Effectively they would still be forced to follow the faith if it is the law of the land. Perhaps someone though could come from overseas then and invade us like we did in Iraq.

Catholicism and Islam are incomparable; Islam is a totalitarian ideology.

God is not thrown out. I worship God all the time. Don’t you?

Yes, but that is less than 20% of the U.S., and if you include people attending mass weekly, it is less than 10%, an abysmal figure compared to the U.S. church prior to Vatican II. Are you not aware of children being arrested for praying in public schools, etc.?

If “these people” are not Catholic then perhaps all of you who go against Church teaching and think they’re not, are not Catholic then either.

How are “these people” going against Church teaching? There definitely are pro-abortion, so-called Catholic politicians who have received communion. This automatically incurs excommunication (Canon 915).

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say Joe Biden is not Catholic because he dissents on something. But you dissent on Catholic teaching on who is considered a Catholic.

Just because they are baptized does not automatically mean they are not excommunicated.

 

[CMatt25]

The disagreement sure appears to be whether abortion is a life or death issue.

You can’t know the harm you are doing by making it other than that.

You keep bringing up several social issues and lumping it with abortion. I haven’t seen anyone on this thread disagree with you with those, yet you keep bringing them up as if there is a disagreement. The thread is abortion and politics, yet you keep adding them to the thread to apparently ease your guilt for promoting abortion. Making excuses like you have been, is nothing but promoting abortion.

No the disagreement is on the words Christ actually spoke and you’re going to find the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, and peacemakers far more than you’re going to find Him utter the word abortion. But you apparently missed then how all these other social issues are “debatable”. And that is why I keep adding them. God bless on your walk with Him and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, but that is less than 20% of the U.S., and if you include people attending mass weekly, it is less than 10%, an abysmal figure compared to the U.S. church prior to Vatican II.

Are you not aware of children being arrested for praying in public schools, etc.?
There definitely are pro-abortion, so-called Catholic politicians who have received communion. This automatically incurs excommunication (Canon 915).Just because they are baptized does not automatically mean they are not excommunicated.

See this is where you and I differ. I said anyone is free to be Catholic now and also said God is not thrown out and you come up with the number of Catholics. I don’t believe only Catholics worship God.

I’m unaware of any child being arrested for quietly saying the prayer of their choice before a math test. No one is forbid to pray. God doesn’t say prayer has to be vocal in a classroom full of plural beliefs. In fact He even actually said,

Matt 6: 5, 6 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.

Don’t forgot excommunicated Catholics are still Catholic according to the Church. God bless and peace.

 

[CathFaith1]

No the disagreement is on the words Christ actually spoke

Jesus says a lot more than you give him credit for.

He said to me, "They are accomplished. I (am) the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.

The victor  will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.

But as for cowards,  the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Rev 20;6-8

 

[dmelosi]

No the disagreement is on the words Christ actually spoke and you’re going to find the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, and peacemakers far more than you’re going to find Him utter the word abortion. But you apparently missed then how all these other social issues are “debatable”. And that is why I keep adding them. God bless on your walk with Him and peace.

For some reason you keep twisting things. How best to follow what Christ taught on the social issues is “debatable”.

 

[CMatt25]

For some reason you keep twisting things. How best to follow what Christ taught on the social issues is “debatable”.

Hi dmelosi, it is not twisting since to use your argument of “how best to follow” means in that case someone with a different faith belief than ours might also argue so is debatable the meaning of kill, of human being. Or whether thou shalt not kill only applies to the innocent unborn. And not to the obvious human being in prison sitting on death row. Many (I’m not saying you do) hide behind the cover of innocent/guilt in support of killing a human being in prison to make themselves feel better about taking an obvious human life.

Tonight a Utah firing squad is set to kill not an embryo. Not a fetus. But a man. 4 guns aimed at this man’s heart. 3 live bullets. 1 blank. Why 1 blank? So no individual in the firing squad knows for certain their hand delivered the fatal shot. But why is it necessary to have a blank if it is justice to kill this man as many Catholics, including some right here on CAF would undoubtedly maintain.

Christ did not say only the unborn shalt thou not kill. Actually He was more direct on capital punishment than He was ever on abortion. In Matt 5:38, 39 He actually said you have heard it said an eye for eye BUT.

But tragically too many fully practicing Catholics so fervent on the abortion issue, will sit by tonight justifying this killing of an obvious human being as perfectly fine in the name of innocence vs guilt. I know because I’ve had them including right here on CAF tell me so.

They do this despite CCC 2267 which concludes with, "Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today … are very rare, if not “practically non-existent.”

Ronny Lee Gardner has been rendered inoffensive the last 25 yrs by another means at the state’s disposal. Yet tonight, the practically non-existent necessity is set to be carried out. Why a firing squad? I don’t know why he chose this means over lethal injection. Perhaps to bring light to the issue. But I know there will be prayers to end abortion at Masses everywhere this Sunday as always. And there will continue the daily laments to end all abortion. But I won’t hear the same protest and based on experience, very likely not even a word at Mass Sunday, to end killing by means of capital punishment or by war.

And this is why the single issue of abortion has taken on too great a place in our politics at the expense of other issues in which Christ actually was more direct on. You have heard an eye for eye BUT… He said. And blessed are the peacemakers. And the righteous He said shall serve the poor, the hungry, the thirsty, the homeless, the sick, and the prisoner.

God bless you and peace to you always.

 

[dmelosi]

Hi dmelosi, it is not twisting since to use your argument of “how best to follow” means in that case someone with a different faith belief than ours might also argue so is debatable the meaning of kill, of human being. Or whether thou shalt not kill only applies to the innocent unborn. And not to the obvious human being in prison sitting on death row. Many (I’m not saying you do) hide behind the cover of innocent/guilt in support of killing a human being in prison to make themselves feel better about taking an obvious human life.

Tonight a Utah firing squad is set to kill not an embryo. Not a fetus. But a man. 4 guns aimed at this man’s heart. 3 live bullets. 1 blank. Why 1 blank? So no individual in the firing squad knows for certain their hand delivered the fatal shot. But why is it necessary to have a blank if it is justice to kill this man as many Catholics, including some right here on CAF would undoubtedly maintain.

Christ did not say only the unborn shalt thou not kill. Actually He was more direct on capital punishment than He was ever on abortion. In Matt 5:38, 39 He actually said you have heard it said an eye for eye BUT.

But tragically too many fully practicing Catholics so fervent on the abortion issue, will sit by tonight justifying this killing of an obvious human being as perfectly fine in the name of innocence vs guilt. I know because I’ve had them including right here on CAF tell me so.

They do this despite CCC 2267 which concludes with, "Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today … are very rare, if not “practically non-existent.”

Ronny Lee Gardner has been rendered inoffensive the last 25 yrs by another means at the state’s disposal. Yet tonight, the practically non-existent necessity is set to be carried out. Why a firing squad? I don’t know why he chose this means over lethal injection. Perhaps to bring light to the issue. But I know there will be prayers to end abortion at Masses everywhere this Sunday as always. And there will continue the daily laments to end all abortion. But I won’t hear the same protest and based on experience, very likely not even a word at Mass Sunday, to end killing by means of capital punishment or by war.

And this is why the single issue of abortion has taken on too great a place in our politics at the expense of other issues in which Christ actually was more direct on. You have heard an eye for eye BUT… He said. And blessed are the peacemakers. And the righteous He said shall serve the poor, the hungry, the thirsty, the homeless, the sick, and the prisoner.

God bless you and peace to you always.

,
1,200,000 of the most innocent vs 50,

Yes there will be prayers to end abortion, and there will be prayers to end the death penalty.

Do you think abortion is killing a human being?

 

[CMatt25]

,
1,200,000 of the most innocent vs 50,

Yes there will be prayers to end abortion, and there will be prayers to end the death penalty.

Do you think abortion is killing a human being?

vs 50? dmelosi, 1 obvious human life is too many.

Perhaps in your parish but not in various ones I attend. I heard a direct call for end to war over a yr ago at one of them and nearly fell out of my seat in shock. I haven’t heard a direct call to end the death penalty uttered in many yrs.

I assume you are asking if I personally believe this? I have stated but if it was on the other thread let me repeat, indeed I personally would not see myself aborting if I were a woman. But down thru the ages not even all the saints nor infallible Apostolic successors have always agreed as to ensoulment of the human.

Augustine wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Pope Innocent III determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time. He stated the soul enters the body when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Pope Gregory XIV pronounced the soul entered the body at 116 days or in other words approximately 4 mos.

religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

The soul does not enter the body at various times depending on the century. Surely Christ would tell all Apostiolic successors the same as to the moment. But even the Popes have not all agreed throughout time. And science has not proven the soul since. It is faith belief based. And not all agree with us. Unlike the death penalty when the person while perhaps having committed a most henious crime, is still obviously having been born, a human being, the abortion issue is grayer depending on one’s belief. And a democracy of plural beliefs, while not a theocracy, must wrestle with the best solution, sometimes an imperfect solution in an imperfect world, to determine the law of the land.

It appears we may have to agree to disagree and coexist together in harmony in an imperfect world. God bless you, dmelosi, and peace be with you always.

 

[dmelosi]

vs 50? dmelosi, 1 obvious human life is too many.

Perhaps in your parish but not in various ones I attend. I heard a direct call for end to war over a yr ago at one of them and nearly fell out of my seat in shock. I haven’t heard a direct call to end the death penalty uttered in many yrs.

I assume you are asking if I personally believe this? I have stated but if it was on the other thread let me repeat, indeed I personally would not see myself aborting if I were a woman. But down thru the ages not even all the saints nor infallible Apostolic successors have always agreed as to ensoulment of the human.

Augustine wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Pope Innocent III determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time. He stated the soul enters the body when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Pope Gregory XIV pronounced the soul entered the body at 116 days or in other words approximately 4 mos.

religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

The soul does not enter the body at various times depending on the century. Surely Christ would tell all Apostiolic successors the same as to the moment. But even the Popes have not all agreed throughout time. And science has not proven the soul since. It is faith belief based. And not all agree with us. Unlike the death penalty when the person while perhaps having committed a most henious crime, is still obviously having been born, a human being, the abortion issue is grayer depending on one’s belief. And a democracy of plural beliefs, while not a theocracy, must wrestle with the best solution, sometimes an imperfect solution in an imperfect world, to determine the law of the land.

It appears we may have to agree to disagree and coexist together in harmony in an imperfect world. God bless you, dmelosi, and peace be with you always.

Of course it is an imperfect world.

I guess you either believe what the church teaches or you don’t. The harm you are doing by helping others to excuse abortion is the shame here.

You insult me by excluding the 1.2 million, of course 50 is too many, you obviously are more concerned with the 50 and not so much with the 1.2 million.

 

[CMatt25]

Of course it is an imperfect world.

I guess you either believe what the church teaches or you don’t. The harm you are doing by helping others to excuse abortion is the shame here.

You insult me by excluding the 1.2 million, of course 50 is too many, you obviously are more concerned with the 50 and not so much with the 1.2 million.

No dmelosi, I am concerned about many things. But I am also concerned with trying to effectively balance my faith and beliefs on abortion with living in a democracy of plural faiths and beliefs in which I have no right to force my beliefs onto others.

Then I try to seek some compromise in order to emphasize some common ground. I propose on the forum more programs for mothers and their children to aid in care following birth. Shot down. Safe, legal but rare on the forums. Shot down. I try to propose exceptions for rape and incest. Shot down. The CC only wants everyone in a democracy of plural beliefs on this to come entirely their way. That may be how it works in Vatican City but not how it works in the real world of a democracy when the democracy is not a theocracy.

Hope that helps! Again God bless!

 

[dmelosi]

No dmelosi, I am concerned about many things. But I am also concerned with trying to effectively balance my faith and beliefs on abortion with living in a democracy of plural faiths and beliefs in which I have no right to force my beliefs onto others.

Then I try to seek some compromise in order to emphasize some common ground. I propose on the forum more programs for mothers and their children to aid in care following birth. Shot down. Safe, legal but rare on the forums. Shot down. I try to propose exceptions for rape and incest. Shot down. The CC only wants everyone in a democracy of plural beliefs on this to come entirely their way. That may be how it works in Vatican City but not how it works in the real world of a democracy when the democracy is not a theocracy.

Hope that helps! Again God bless!

It is either life and death or it is not. You are arguing that it is not life and death.

The grave harm you are doing is trying to convince those on the fence that the Church is wrong on this issue.

The Catholic Church agrees their needs to be more programs for mothers and children.
Every pro life person I know, on here and in person, agree with you that there should be fewer abortions.

It appears to me that you keep bringing these issues up and lumping them with abortion to make you feel better about accepting the pro death party you appear married to.

Doesn’t it bother you a little bit that Obama argued the infants born alive act?

 

[tjm190]

No the disagreement is on the words Christ actually spoke and you’re going to find the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, and peacemakers far more than you’re going to find Him utter the word abortion. But you apparently missed then how all these other social issues are “debatable”. And that is why I keep adding them. God bless on your walk with Him and peace.

He also did not speak out against the use of chemical weapons against major urban centers. Guess that means it’s fine! Or perhaps it would have been silly to speak out against something that didn’t exist at the time.