Abortion and Voting

[elts1956]

Think before you open your mouth!! I’m not American and I don’t live in America.
I’m simply trying to understand why any American would vote for a candidate of a party based on one issue only when his party has spent 8 years destroying America. How many Americans in the past 8 years have become impoverished and died because of the Republican policies.

Yeah I can admit it – there’s nothing shameful about my vote, that’s why.

I DO realise the consequences of my vote. Perhaps you just cannot realise and accept that other people can vote for him with a clear conscience.

I voted for Barack Obama.(i dont know why you insist of referring to him with his initials and them being lower cased. is that your way of “insulting” him as well? really…classy?)
Yes, I did! =)

P.S. - again, I didnt realise you had the authority to tell me whether a vote was a serious moral error. And considering I spent hours talking to different priests on this issue and they knew I was voting for Obama and they did not tell me this mmm…yeah. weird.

My, my, so defensive when told the truth. I don’t know what priests you talked to, but I am sure they DIDN’T tell you that to vote for bo ( bad odor) (NOW THAT’S JUST DARN INSULTING)was wrong. The clergy, some of them, told us what to vote FOR not who NOT to vote for. If the priests you talked to didn’t clarify the teachings of the church for you, or attempt to clarify them for you, then they were at fault. I can’t believe “different” priests could be that lax in their moral theology.

What the Church wanted you to do was to follow the teachings of the church with good moral discernment as to what was the most moral thing to do. I am sure you MUST have read somewhere that there were five intrinsic evils on the ballot this time around, abortion, cloning, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia, homosexual marriage. You did see that didn’t you? If you did, you should have noticed these five Intrinsic evils can NEVER be supported. That if one supported a pro abortion candidate, the vote must not be for the intention of supporting abortion, BUT, there must be (a) (other) PROPORTIONATEissue/s to the issues of abortion, euthanasia, etc. Were there?

So sorry you got confused. Oh, and please don’t shoot the messenger. From Pope Benedict XVI to me to you.

 

[estesbob]

Think before you open your mouth!! I’m not American and I don’t live in America.
I’m simply trying to understand why any American would vote for a candidate of a party based on one issue only when his party has spent 8 years destroying America. How many Americans in the past 8 years have become impoverished and died because of the Republican policies.

There was no significant increase in the rate of povery during the 8 years Bush was Presdident. the mortality rate decreased slightly while Bush was president. The number of abortions , on the other hand, hit a 30 year low.

Does that answer your questions?

Although you dont reveal what country you are from ill bet the unemployment rate is lower in the US than where you live.

 

[elts1956]

Sorry but anyone who can justify the killing of children, the elderly, and pregnant women (and their babies) in wartime activities has no business talking about how he’s so pro-life.

The Church has NOT listed war as an Intrinsic Evil. Evil, yes, disapproved of, yes, but not the Intrinsic evil of abortion.

 

[ProVobis]

The Church has NOT listed war as an Intrinsic Evil. Evil, yes, disapproved of, yes, but not the Intrinsic evil of abortion.

I believe both Popes have stated that the Iraqi war was an UNJUST war. Again, there was no justification for killing (again) children, the elderly, and pregnant women, etc. And when you kill a pregnant woman, even in this country, it counts as TWO murders.

 

[ProVobis]

There was no significant increase in the rate of povery during the 8 years Bush was Presdident. the mortality rate decreased slightly while Bush was president. The number of abortions , on the other hand, hit a 30 year low.

Do you know what the first thing that American soldiers introduced to Iraq? The birth control pill, that’s what. And doesn’t the Church call it an abortificent?

However, we will give Bush some credit for passing the anti partial-birth abortion bill, though, but that should have been a no-brainer since there was/is very little public support for this kind of late-term abortion.

By the way, did you know that Al Gore was once a very pro-life politician? In fact, during one time he was much more pro-life than Reagan, who had been anti-life prior to taking office. So it’s not like a conversion of faith is not possible for those in office.

 

[estesbob]

I believe both Popes have stated that the Iraqi war was an UNJUST war. Again, there was no justification for killing (again) children, the elderly, and pregnant women, etc. And when you kill a pregnant woman, even in this country, it counts as TWO murders.

Neither of them did. and B16 made it very clear that catholics of good conscience could disagree on the widsdom of waging the Irarqi war.

 

[elts1956]

I believe both Popes have stated that the Iraqi war was an UNJUST war. Again, there was no justification for killing (again) children, the elderly, and pregnant women, etc. And when you kill a pregnant woman, even in this country, it counts as TWO murders.

Are you thinking that the Iraqi war, which I did NOT support, is of a proportionate issue to abortion and every other anti life policy that follows with it? If so, you are wrong. I am not challenging you, or trying to start an argument, but could you find the statements of both Popes about the UNJUST war? They may have said that, I’ll take your word for now, but that still does not make it as grave an issue as abortion et al.

 

[thistle]

There was no significant increase in the rate of povery during the 8 years Bush was Presdident. the mortality rate decreased slightly while Bush was president. The number of abortions , on the other hand, hit a 30 year low.

Does that answer your questions?

Although you dont reveal what country you are from ill bet the unemployment rate is lower in the US than where you live.

Here in the Philippines unemployment is officially about 7.5% (but probably much higher), underemployment is at 22%, and people living under poverty level around 48%.

 

[elts1956]

Yes, I took all other issues into consideration this past election.
I did not consider them equal simply because it was different issues – you can’t always compare apples with oranges.

And I don’t understand how a culmination of all issues makes me still a “one issue voter”.

Because you didn’t culminate. How is your choice of a special issue any different from my choice of standing against abortion?

 

[Numinous]

There is a time for (a just) war just as there is time for peace.

There is never a time for killing babies. Period.

 

[ProVobis]

Are you thinking that the Iraqi war, which I did NOT support, is of a proportionate issue to abortion and every other anti life policy that follows with it? If so, you are wrong. I am not challenging you, or trying to start an argument, but could you find the statements of both Popes about the UNJUST war? They may have said that, I’ll take your word for now, but that still does not make it as grave an issue as abortion et al.

So is not killing pregnant women abortion?

 

[ProVobis]

Neither of them did. and B16 made it very clear that catholics of good conscience could disagree on the widsdom of waging the Irarqi war.

So are you arguing for or against the killing of pregnant women by those outside one’s country?

 

[ProVobis]

There is a time for (a just) war just as there is time for peace.

There is never a time for killing babies. Period.

Look, bottom line is this: The Republicans made Roe vs Wade the seemingly unbreakable law of the land. You may choose not to see that, but it will always be their scarlet letter. It’s unfortunate that the Democrats have used it to their political advantage but do try to see that this is a much deeper issue than simply listening to what the candidates say about the matter. There are very few real pro-life candidates out there and simply voting for the lesser of two evils one election after another will only make the situation worse. If a candidates states he is pro-life EXCEPT in rape, incest, whatever, he is not a true pro-lifer. But you may disagree and vote for him anyway. I can’t stop you.

 

[jp2weloveu]

So are you arguing for or against the killing of pregnant women by those outside one’s country?

Through inability to rationally speak to the issue at hand, some left leaning posters have decided to change the subject of this thread to the Iraq war. Please be mindful of the subject line. Go start another thread if you want to talk about other issues.

Be clear in your subject line and mind. It sounds like your agrument is that American soldiers willingly and purposefully line up innocent citizens and murder them at the rate of 4,000 Iraqis a day? …and the US government condones this?

You want to equate abortion on a massive scale with very few war crimes? Do you not know the situation (genocide and large scale government killings) in Iraq when the war started?

OK I’ll agree, for arguments sake, that the two issues are comparible. As such perpetrators of the crimes should be treated the same. We have rightly put war criminals on trial here. So where we setting up the tribunals to try all abortionists and their helpers with murder? I can’t wait to get started we’ll be saving even more innocent people than the US military saved in Iraq

 

[Numinous]

Look, bottom line is this: The Republicans made Roe vs Wade the seemingly unbreakable law of the land. You may choose not to see that, but it will always be their scarlet letter. It’s unfortunate that the Democrats have used it to their political advantage but do try to see that this is a much deeper issue than simply listening to what the candidates say about the matter. There are very few real pro-life candidates out there and simply voting for the lesser of two evils one election after another will only make the situation worse. If a candidates states he is pro-life EXCEPT in rape, incest, whatever, he is not a true pro-lifer. But you may disagree and vote for him anyway. I can’t stop you.

To hell with republicans AND democrats. You think I support either political party? I think all politicians should be hanged. Nuke Congress.

 

[jp2weloveu]

Do you know what the first thing that American soldiers introduced to Iraq? The birth control pill, that’s what. And doesn’t the Church call it an abortificent?

However, we will give Bush some credit for passing the anti partial-birth abortion bill, though, but that should have been a no-brainer since there was/is very little public support for this kind of late-term abortion.

By the way, did you know that Al Gore was once a very pro-life politician? In fact, during one time he was much more pro-life than Reagan, who had been anti-life prior to taking office. So it’s not like a conversion of faith is not possible for those in office.

So if it was a no brainer for Bush to oppose late term abortions then we see that Obama who supports late term abortions, must have no brains.

Oh and the argument about who was pro-life or pro-abortion when makes no sense to me. Presonally I would rather have someone in office who will vote pro life, than someone who used to be pro-life no matter that they were really, really pro-life). Just how do you morally progress from believing in someones right to life to believing that someone else has the right to kill them?

 

[estesbob]

So are you arguing for or against the killing of pregnant women by those outside one’s country?

I havent seen anyone claim that. Could you point out where it is you got this idea?

Now back to the subject at hand. Given the Pope himself said the war was NOT a proportionate reason to vote for Barck Obam can you show us any other member of the Magestrium who says Obama’s oppostion to the Iraq war was a proportionate enough reason to vote for him?

 

[estesbob]

Look, bottom line is this: The Republicans made Roe vs Wade the seemingly unbreakable law of the land. You may choose not to see that, but it will always be their scarlet letter. It’s unfortunate that the Democrats have used it to their political advantage but do try to see that this is a much deeper issue than simply listening to what the candidates say about the matter. There are very few real pro-life candidates out there and simply voting for the lesser of two evils one election after another will only make the situation worse. If a candidates states he is pro-life EXCEPT in rape, incest, whatever, he is not a true pro-lifer. But you may disagree and vote for him anyway. I can’t stop you.

Thnak you for your rather muddeld opinion(the USC Supreme court enacted Roe V Wade-not the republicna party). I am still wating for you to reconcile your opinion with the teachings of the Church. If you believe that politics are more important than faith just say so and we can move on to other things-like how the Rockets got blown out by a mediocre team last night.

 

[elts1956]

So is not killing pregnant women abortion?

Not directly. That is the sin of legalized abortion. It is pre meditated, intentional killing of the unborn. Although sad, and I wish it didn’t happen, a pregnant woman killed accidentally in a war is what is known as a “casualty of war”. Not the direct focus, or reason for the war. I think you knew that.

 

[elts1956]

So is not killing pregnant women abortion?

Look, bottom line is this: The Republicans made Roe vs Wade the seemingly unbreakable law of the land. You may choose not to see that, but it will always be their scarlet letter. It’s unfortunate that the Democrats have used it to their political advantage but do try to see that this is a much deeper issue than simply listening to what the candidates say about the matter. There are very few real pro-life candidates out there and simply voting for the lesser of two evils one election after another will only make the situation worse. If a candidates states he is pro-life EXCEPT in rape, incest, whatever, he is not a true pro-lifer. But you may disagree and vote for him anyway. I can’t stop you.

Yes, it is a shame we must keep voting for the lesser of two evils in each Presidential election. We need to find a strong pro lifer who is willing to undergo the trials and tribulations of being President of the country and try to get s/him in the White House.

As it were, in regard to abortion, we were instructed to vote for the candidate who would be the less likely to promote the spread of abortion rights in this country. Compared to pro death bo, that was a no brainer.