Abortion Automatically a Mortal Sin?

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Today’s “Question to an Apologist” is the following:

“Whether aborting a 15 days foetus is sin? This happened in an unmarried pair. Need some further counselling.”

The response given is the following:

“Of course, it’s a sin; a mortal sin! Once the sperm and egg have united, a new person exists with an immortal soul. To deliberately kill it is to take innocent human life.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9088566#post9088566

It is my understanding that an abortion (at any time) is a grave act. But it’s also my understanding that a mortal sin is incurred only if three requirements are met:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm

So - if a person honestly does not know that an abortion is a grievous act, or is forced into the act by family pressure or societal pressure or in any way does not give full consent, it is not a mortal sin. Is it?

Thoughts?
 
Sometimes there is some confusion here on terms.

Mortal sin = Serious sin = Grave sin

The Church uses these terms in two senses (and an objective if you will and a subjective sense). And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable.

Here are the two senses:
  1. Objective sense
Murder is a grave sin.
Murder is a serious sin.
Murder is a mortal sin.

(all three mean the same)

this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.

Then there is this way…
  1. Subjective sense…
I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder

(all three mean the same)

This is speaking of when the thing I committed is grave matter …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.

Both are true. Both are ways the terms get used in Church documents
Ordinarily I tell people “such and such is a grave matter” for mortal sin and if one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…then one commits a mortal sin.

But sometimes I will say “yes murder is a mortal sin”…etc

Certainly one can say: abortion is a mortal sin.
 
=LittleSoldier;9089038]Today’s “Question to an Apologist” is the following:
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“Whether aborting a 15 days foetus is sin? This happened in an unmarried pair. Need some further counselling.”
Click to expand...
The response given is the following:
Click to expand...
“Of course, it’s a sin; a mortal sin! Once the sperm and egg have united, a new person exists with an immortal soul. To deliberately kill it is to take innocent human life.”
Click to expand...
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9088566#post9088566
Click to expand...
It is my understanding that an abortion (at any time) is a grievous act. But it’s also my understanding that a mortal sin is incurred only if three requirements are met:
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(1) The act must be a grievous act.
(2) The person committing the act must *know *the act is a grievous act.
(3) The act must be committed with full consent.
Click to expand...
So - if a person honestly does not know that an abortion is a grievous act, or is forced into the act by family pressure or societal pressure or in any way does not give full consent, it is not a mortal sin. Is it?
Click to expand...
Thoughts?
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What you seem to be lacking is the issue of “Intrinsic Evil” which an abortion is.

From the Catechism:2271 "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."

Because it is murder everyone is empowered to know that it is wrong. THEREFORE it is ALWAYS and everytime a MORTAL SIN.

God Bless,
Pat
 
So is it possible that a person had an abortion and is not culpable fully --has not committed a mortal sin? Yes it is possible. Just like other murders etc.

But the difficulty in language is solved by my earlier post above.
 
Bookcat said:
Sometimes there is some confusion here on terms.

Mortal sin = Serious sin = Grave sin

The Church uses these terms in two senses (and an objective if you will and a subjective sense). And in both senses the terms grave sin, mortal sin, and serious sin are interchangeable.

Here are the two senses:
  1. Objective sense
Murder is a grave sin.
Murder is a serious sin.
Murder is a mortal sin.

(all three mean the same)

this is one way the Church use the term. Talking about the ‘moral object’ of the act or the ‘objective kind of sin’. Referring to the object itself. Like if I said…do not commit murder for that is a mortal sin.

Then there is this way…
  1. Subjective sense…
I committed the grave sin of Murder
I committed the serious sin of Murder
I committed the mortal sin of Murder

(all three mean the same)

This is speaking of when the thing I committed is grave matter …done with full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent.

Both are true. Both are ways the terms get used in Church documents
Ordinarily I tell people “such and such is a grave matter” for mortal sin and if one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…then one commits a mortal sin.

But sometimes I will say “yes murder is a mortal sin”…etc

Certainly one can say: abortion is a mortal sin.
Click to expand...
Wow - you’re fast! Because of computer problems that make me lose drafts I had to edit my post after it had been posted. Please read it again.

According to the CCC 1857 mortal sin certainly involves grave matter, but one must meet all three criteria in order for this grave matter to be a mortal sin.

If a13 year-old pregnant girl is forced into a car against her will and is taken to an abortion clinic and an abortion is performed on her against her will, she has not committed a mortal sin. She has not met at least one of the three criteria listed in the CCC.

The act of abortion cannot always be a mortal sin. If that is what is being claimed by the Church, she is contradicting herself.

(BTW, I am avidly pro-life and do not believe that any direct abortion is morally licit.)
 
Bookcat said:
So is it possible that a person had an abortion and is not culpable fully --has not committed a mortal sin? Yes it is possible. Just like other murders etc.

But the difficulty in language is solved by my earlier post above.
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I admit I don’t understand how the difficulty in language is solved by your earlier post. The 13 year-old girl is not consenting at all - the abortion is being performed on her against her will. Yet she is still guilty of a mortal sin? And so if she dies during the abortion she is damned for eternity? I cannot believe that an omnibenevolent God would punish one of His loved lambs in this way.
 
I had this happen to a student of mine when I was teaching.

She got pregnant young and was forced by her dad to have an abortion - he basically picked her up and drove her to the clinic, and forced her into the abortuary.

I think he was guilty of the abortion, not her.😦
 
PJM said:
What you seem to be lacking is the issue of “Intrinsic Evil” which an abortion is.

From the Catechism:2271 "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."

Because it is murder everyone is empowered to know that it is wrong. THEREFORE it is ALWAYS and everytime a MORTAL SIN.

God Bless,
Pat
Click to expand...
So a 13 year-old girl who is forced to undergo an abortion *against her will *has committed a mortal sin? And if she dies after the procedure she will be damned for eternity? I cannot believe that an omnibenevolent God would punish one of His loved lambs in this way.

Are you saying that this 13 year-old girl is guilty of a mortal sin?

It may be a mortal sin for the person who performed the abortion. But not this child, this young woman.

EDIT: I would like to add that “murder” is a legal term. She is not guilty of murder, nor is anyone else involved. However, it is certainly true that a human being was slaughtered and there is guilt.
 
triumphguy said:
I had this happen to a student of mine when I was teaching.

She got pregnant young and was forced by her dad to have an abortion - he basically picked her up and drove her to the clinic, and forced her into the abortuary.

I think he was guilty of the abortion, not her.😦
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I agree - as much as I can without judging (and that is difficult). And certainly the person who performed the abortion is guilty (although I can’t look into his heart and soul and say he has committed a mortal sin). I think the answer given by the apologist was over-simplified and did not reflect the omniscience and mercy of God.

None of us can really even say that a specific person committed a mortal sin, although I believe a priest can make that determination during the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The question raised to the apologist is about a specific person. In the apologist’s defense, he did not say that the woman who had the abortion was guilty of a mortal sin. I just wish he had posted the three conditions and made them clear.
 
LittleSoldier said:
So a 13 year-old girl who is forced to undergo an abortion *against her will *has committed a mortal sin? And if she dies after the procedure she will be damned for eternity? I cannot believe that an omnibenevolent God would punish one of His loved lambs in this way.

Are you saying that this 13 year-old girl is guilty of a mortal sin?

It may be a mortal sin for the person who performed the abortion. But not this child, this young woman.
Click to expand...
No, in the story, the 13 year old girl would not have sinned. It would be on the people working in the abortion center for doing the abortion and her father.
 
“Full knowledge” does not really pertain to ethical principles. Everyone knows ethical principles; the natural law is “inscribed on the hearts of men.” Full knowledge is related to circumstances in which knowledge is actually relevant to the act. For instance, if I say “Houston is the capital of Texas” because I actually think it is, I haven’t sinned because I haven’t lied – I’m just incorrect. Likewise, if a pregnant female friend asks me to give her a ride to the hospital and I comply, and only later discover that she was going to the hospital to get an abortion, I haven’t sinned.

Family and social pressures may mitigate the sin, but I don’t think they’re sufficient to qualify it as anything less than mortal. A person is always free not to get an abortion, and even if the family refuses to support the woman, well, there is no shortage of social services available to her.
 
LittleSoldier said:
Wow - you’re fast! Because of computer problems that make me lose drafts I had to edit my post after it had been posted. Please read it again.

According to the CCC 1857 mortal sin certainly involves grave matter, but one must meet all three criteria in order for this grave matter to be a mortal sin.

If a13 year-old pregnant girl is forced into a car against her will and is taken to an abortion clinic and an abortion is performed on her against her will, she has not committed a mortal sin. She has not met at least one of the three criteria listed in the CCC.

The act of abortion cannot always be a mortal sin. If that is what is being claimed by the Church, she is contradicting herself.

(BTW, I am avidly pro-life and do not believe that any direct abortion is morally licit.)
Click to expand...
Read the post above again – it is a question of terms.

Grave matter is one aspect of what goes into *committing *a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin.

It is important to note that the Church uses the terms Grave sin -mortal sin -serious sin i a way that is interchangable --AND in an objective and subjective sense.

One can say abortion is always a mortal sin and in the same breath one can add but sally did “commit” a mortal sin due to lack of say knowledge etc.
 
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LittleSoldier:
So a 13 year-old girl who is forced to undergo an abortion *against her will *has committed a mortal sin? And if she dies after the procedure she will be damned for eternity? I cannot believe that an omnibenevolent God would punish one of His loved lambs in this way.

Are you saying that this 13 year-old girl is guilty of a mortal sin?
Click to expand...
The girl isn’t even the one performing the abortion in this case, so of course she’s not guilty. I don’t understand why you felt the need to ask this in the first place, or who even claimed anything to that effect.
 
sw85 said:
“Full knowledge” does not really pertain to ethical principles. Everyone knows ethical principles; the natural law is “inscribed on the hearts of men.” Full knowledge is related to circumstances in which knowledge is actually relevant to the act. For instance, if I say “Houston is the capital of Texas” because I actually think it is, I haven’t sinned because I haven’t lied – I’m just incorrect. Likewise, if a pregnant female friend asks me to give her a ride to the hospital and I comply, and only later discover that she was going to the hospital to get an abortion, I haven’t sinned.

Family and social pressures may mitigate the sin, but I don’t think they’re sufficient to qualify it as anything less than mortal. A person is always free not to get an abortion, and even if the family refuses to support the woman, well, there is no shortage of social services available to her.
Click to expand...
If a young girl is forced against her will into an abortion clinic I don’t think she has committed a mortal sin. She is lacking free will at this point.
 
sw85 said:
“Full knowledge” does not really pertain to ethical principles. Everyone knows ethical principles; the natural law is “inscribed on the hearts of men.” Full knowledge is related to circumstances in which knowledge is actually relevant to the act. For instance, if I say “Houston is the capital of Texas” because I actually think it is, I haven’t sinned because I haven’t lied – I’m just incorrect. Likewise, if a pregnant female friend asks me to give her a ride to the hospital and I comply, and only later discover that she was going to the hospital to get an abortion, I haven’t sinned.

Family and social pressures may mitigate the sin, but I don’t think they’re sufficient to qualify it as anything less than mortal. A person is always free not to get an abortion, and even if the family refuses to support the woman, well, there is no shortage of social services available to her.
Click to expand...
I completely agree. There are sins that are always grave enough to be considered mortal, like murder, as it is indeed inscribed in the hearts of men. I think that forcing someone to commit the act mitigates culpability to an extent, but ultimately that is going to be up to God.

And truly, do we really want to test those limits? After all, eternal bliss vs damnation hangs in the balance. I wish people would realize this more often.
 
The question of the thread simply comes from the fact that the Church uses the terms mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin to indicate the same thing. And use them on both

the subjective level of “did I commit a mortal sin (grave sin-serious sin)?”

and the objective level of “abortion is a grave sin (mortal sin/serious sin)”

One can say yes abortion* IS *a mortal sin.

One can also say that sally did not commit a mortal sin when she had an abortion due to lack of knowledge etc.

(I am not using any particular fictional story detailed here --just assuming that the sally in question did not have the needed knowledge)
 
sw85 said:
“Full knowledge” does not really pertain to ethical principles. Everyone knows ethical principles; the natural law is “inscribed on the hearts of men.” Full knowledge is related to circumstances in which knowledge is actually relevant to the act. For instance, if I say “Houston is the capital of Texas” because I actually think it is, I haven’t sinned because I haven’t lied – I’m just incorrect. Likewise, if a pregnant female friend asks me to give her a ride to the hospital and I comply, and only later discover that she was going to the hospital to get an abortion, I haven’t sinned.

Family and social pressures may mitigate the sin, but I don’t think they’re sufficient to qualify it as anything less than mortal. A person is always free not to get an abortion, and even if the family refuses to support the woman, well, there is no shortage of social services available to her.
Click to expand...
In the scenario I outlined in my posts above there is a 13 year-old girl who is forced to go through an abortion. With all due respect, it is not always true that a person is always free not to get an abortion. A 13 year-old may be physically able to become pregnant and carry that pregnancy to term but she is not an adult when it comes to cognitive processing and decision making. She is still a child and she is a minor child. And her father can literally drag her to the car, throw her in, and take her to an abortion clinic where an abortion will be forced on her - against her will. “Doctors” who perform abortions are not the most ethical of physicians and many aren’t even doctors at all.

The third criteria for a mortal sin is “deliberate consent.” It is my understanding from what I have been told by priests that this means full consent. Mitigating factors that reduce culpability to less than deliberate consent result in the abortion not being a mortal sin. It is God and priests who are able to determine whether mitigating factors are sufficient - not you and not me.

As for “everyone knowing,” does that include the mentally retarded and the insane? What about the rare 10 year-old girl who becomes pregnant? Does she know?

It seems that you think this 13 year-old girl would be guilty of a mortal sin. Do you?
 
Bookcat said:
Read the post above again – it is a question of terms.

Grave matter is one aspect of what goes into *committing *a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin.

It is important to note that the Church uses the terms Grave sin -mortal sin -serious sin i a way that is interchangable --AND in an objective and subjective sense.

One can say abortion is always a mortal sin and in the same breath one can add but sally did “commit” a mortal sin due to lack of say knowledge etc.
Click to expand...
Is your last sentence correct? Did you mean to say that Sally “did not” commit a mortal sin?

Actually, it is not up to us to decide if Sally committed a mortal sin or not. We can’t see into Sally’s heart and soul. We can’t know all the factors involved and that is because we are not omniscient. I think a priest can make that determination if he asks Sally what happened. But not us.

We can make general statements but we are not to judge the state of anyone else’s soul.

I think I understand what you are saying in the rest of your post. Thanks for clarifying.
 
LittleSoldier said:
Today’s “Question to an Apologist” is the following:

“Whether aborting a 15 days foetus is sin? This happened in an unmarried pair. Need some further counselling.”

The response given is the following:

“Of course, it’s a sin; a mortal sin! Once the sperm and egg have united, a new person exists with an immortal soul. To deliberately kill it is to take innocent human life.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9088566#post9088566

It is my understanding that an abortion (at any time) is a grave act. But it’s also my understanding that a mortal sin is incurred only if three requirements are met:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm

So - if a person honestly does not know that an abortion is a grievous act, or is forced into the act by family pressure or societal pressure or in any way does not give full consent, it is not a mortal sin. Is it?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
They should know abortion is a grievous act through natural law, just like you know murder of an adult is a grievous act through natural law. But if a person is forced into an abortion (somehow) then I don’t think it would be a mortal sin on their part, but on the person forcing them to have one.
 
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