Abortion Automatically a Mortal Sin?

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Actually, it is not up to us to decide if Sally committed a mortal sin or not. We can’t see into Sally’s heart and soul. We can’t know all the factors involved and that is because we are not omniscient. I think a priest can make that determination if he asks Sally what happened. But not us.

We can make general statements but we are not to judge the state of anyone else’s soul.
Yes of course.

In my fictional example it is a “fact” that she did not due to say lack of knowledge…so we are discussing it more from the view of God especially.

Sally can make a reasonable judgment and her confessor later can do so. But yes in the end only God “sees” into her soul (unless of course he has given that extraordinary gift of reading hearts to someone who knows her…but that is another matter.)
 
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
  1. When does one commit a venial sin?
1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
 
In the scenario I outlined in my posts above there is a 13 year-old girl who is forced to go through an abortion. With all due respect, it is not always true that a person is always free not to get an abortion. ** A 13 year-old may be physically able to become pregnant and carry that pregnancy to term but she is not an adult when it comes to cognitive processing and decision making.** She is still a child and she is a minor child. And her father can literally drag her to the car, throw her in, and take her to an abortion clinic where an abortion will be forced on her - against her will. “Doctors” who perform abortions are not the most ethical of physicians and many aren’t even doctors at all.

The third criteria for a mortal sin is “deliberate consent.” It is my understanding from what I have been told by priests that this means full consent. Mitigating factors that reduce culpability to less than deliberate consent result in the abortion not being a mortal sin. It is God and priests who are able to determine whether mitigating factors are sufficient - not you and not me.

As for “everyone knowing,” does that include the mentally retarded and the insane? What about the rare 10 year-old girl who becomes pregnant? Does she know?

It seems that you think this 13 year-old girl would be guilty of a mortal sin. Do you?
Your assumption that I marked with a bold font is wrong. A 13 year old person understands what murder is and can make a decision freely in regard to that. The Church considers a 13 year old to be in the age of reason and thus the person can be and is held accountable for the choices or lack of choices.

The fact that a person if forced to undergo abortion is not culpable, and that is independent of the age. It is easier to force a younger person but age does not play a role in the culpability once you reach the age of reason.
 
Wow - you’re fast! Because of computer problems that make me lose drafts I had to edit my post after it had been posted. Please read it again.

According to the CCC 1857 mortal sin certainly involves grave matter, but one must meet all three criteria in order for this grave matter to be a mortal sin.

If a13 year-old pregnant girl is forced into a car against her will and is taken to an abortion clinic and an abortion is performed on her against her will, she has not committed a mortal sin. She has not met at least one of the three criteria listed in the CCC.

The act of abortion cannot always be a mortal sin. If that is what is being claimed by the Church, she is contradicting herself.

(BTW, I am avidly pro-life and do not believe that any direct abortion is morally licit.)
Of the 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal, the first (the matter is grave) is always fulfilled in abortion, the second (knowledge that the matter is grave by the perpetrator) is sometimes not met, although today people cannot excuse themselves by saying that they are not aware of the seriousness of abortion, and the third (full consent by the perpetrator) is in many cases not met. In the example of the little girl dragged to an abortion clinic, the third premise is certainly not met.
 
(I am speaking here in general --not about a specific case real or fictional)

Now could a 13 year old commit a mortal sin? or more precisely the mortal sin of abortion? Yes. If they meet the three aspects and all things being equal (yes various factors could lessen the culpability of a person)
 
Your assumption that I marked with a bold font is wrong. A 13 year old person understands what murder is and can make a decision freely in regard to that. The Church considers a 13 year old to be in the age of reason and thus the person can be and is held accountable for the choices or lack of choices.
Murder is a legal term. A woman who procurs an abortion does not commit murder unless that abortion is against the law. A person who performs an abortion does not commit murder unless that abortion is against the law. I haven’t seen any news stories about mass arrests of people who procur and/or perform abortions and that is because it is NOT murder. What it is is the slaughter of the most innocent people in the world. So if a 13 year-old who believes that abortion is murder does not understand what murder is, and with all due respect, neither do you.

Now let’s take that 13 year-old girl whose brawny father drags her to the car and drives her to an abortion clinic. What should she do? Scream? It might help. But one of Dahmer’s victims escaped and was returned to Dahmer because the police did not believe the victim’s story. Dahmer murdered that young man. Should she kick Dad? That won’t help. How is she supposed to protect her unborn child and herself? Jump out of the car? Run for her life? Maybe it would work but I doubt it would work most of the time.

And being 13 does NOT mean that she has understanding of the morality (or lack thereof) of abortion. In the U.S. abortion is legal. She would not be breaking the law if she obtained an abortion. PP and groups which are joined with PP are pushing abortion down the throats of children; teaching them that abortion is the cure instead of the problem. Parents, some of them Catholic, are doing the same thing. Even the Girl Scouts is now associated with PP.
The fact that a person if forced to undergo abortion is not culpable, and that is independent of the age. It is easier to force a younger person but age does not play a role in the culpability once you reach the age of reason.
It is not independent of the age used in my scenario and I don’t believe it is independent of the age of a minor child who obtains an abortion.

The age of reason in the Church is seven. Seven. And at that age a child should be able to tell the difference between right and wrong. That does NOT mean the same thing as understanding all the moral consequences of an act that is so riddled with political and secular misunderstanding that it has become a morass for people much older than seven years.

Please provide official Church teaching to back up your assertion that “age does not play a role in the culpability once you reach the age of reason.” Thank you.
 
but age does not play a role in the culpability once you reach the age of reason.
Age can play a role in culpability even after one has reached the age of reason. This is not to say that a 13 year old can not commit a mortal sin but age and various related factors can enter in.
 
Murder is also a Theological term.
I will gladly concede this point. Every time I have stated that abortion is murder I have been slammed. I have googled it and found some back-up that I wish I had known about when I got slammed in the threads I was in.

OK - abortion is murder (of a kind; though not in a legal sense if it does not violate any laws, immoral as they are, and this should be made clear when writing and/or speaking of it). It is also slaughter (and torture in many cases).
 
To all thread participants,

Please know that I am pro-life. I don’t believe that direct abortion can ever be morally correct. My concern is that the apologist who answered the question (which can be found in the OP) did not even mention the three criteria which must be present for the sin to be mortal. It seems to me that he judged without enough information and I am very concerned about misleading those who are asking about Church teaching.

“Abortion” is not so much my focus as is “mortal sin.” I wish I had made that more clear in my OP. I apologize for that.

I’ve stayed away from debating abortion for awhile because it is a difficult topic and I was burned out. Now that I started this thread I am already feeling burned out again.

I never mean to be uncharitable. I never mean to offend. But with this particular subject I have some problems with charity and I ask your forgiveness if I have stated anything to anyone which can be taken as less than charitable.

I just couldn’t, in good conscience, allow the apologist’s response to remain without examining it.
 
I will gladly concede this point. …

OK - abortion is murder (of a kind; though not in a legal sense if it does not violate any laws, immoral as they are, and this should be made clear when writing and/or speaking of it).
Right Abortion is a “kind” of murder --though it is further specified as “abortion” (the person confessing would need to state that). Sadly the US legal system at the moment does not recognize this but hopefully this will change to doing so again. Sadly various countries do not recognize genecide as a horrible crime either but often later the truth has been reasserted.
 
To all thread participants,

My concern is that the apologist who answered the question (which can be found in the OP) did not even mention the three criteria which must be present for the sin to be mortal. It seems to me that he judged without enough information and I am very concerned about misleading those who are asking about Church teaching.

“Abortion” is not so much my focus as is “mortal sin.” I wish I had made that more clear in my OP. …

I just couldn’t, in good conscience, allow the apologist’s response to remain without examining it.
This is where the terminology comes in. It IS a mortal sin *always and everywhere *-- on the objective level of the thing itself. The grave intrinsic evil. This is what they were getting at.

As to if someone “committed” a mortal sin – that is another matter.
 
Age can play a role in culpability even after one has reached the age of reason. This is not to say that a 13 year old can not commit a mortal sin but age and various related factors can enter in.
I somehow might disagree with you here but I am not sure. Things that might be associated with age can play in the culpability but age itself is not a discriminant. Two people of very different ages but with the same lack of intellectual or emotional maturity have the same culpability independently of the element that caused the lack of maturity. An older person with Down syndrome could be be as vulnerable as a regular pre-adolescent and thus they could have the same reduced culpability for some actions.
 
I somehow might disagree with you here but I am not sure. Things that might be associated with age can play in the culpability but age itself is not a discriminant. Two people of very different ages but with the same lack of intellectual or emotional maturity have the same culpability independently of the element that caused the lack of maturity. An older person with Down syndrome could be be as vulnerable as a regular pre-adolescent and thus they could have the same reduced culpability for some actions.
Hence the word “can” 🙂

Your mileage will vary.
 
No, in the story, the 13 year old girl would not have sinned. It would be on the people working in the abortion center for doing the abortion and her father.
Unless she was raped, yes, she would have committed the sin of fornication in order to become pregnant, but the abortion itself would not have been a mortal sin since she was forced into doing it.
 
This is where the terminology comes in. It IS a mortal sin *always and everywhere *-- on the objective level of the thing itself. The grave intrinsic evil. This is what they were getting at.

As to if someone “committed” a mortal sin – that is another matter.
All mortal sins are grave sins but not all grave sins are mortal sins. I’m having a problem understanding what you are saying. Abortion is a grave sin - that is ONE criterion. But all three criteria must be present for abortion to be a mortal sin. The objectivity is inherent in the first criterion only.

In a way you are correct because abortion is objectively grave. But the other two criteria are not objective but subjective.

Is this what you are saying? Are we talking past each other?

I have a headache. 😦
 
Unless she was raped, yes, she would have committed the sin of fornication in order to become pregnant, but the abortion itself would not have been a mortal sin since she was forced into doing it.
I believe the poster was referring to the sin of obtaining an abortion.
 
All mortal sins are grave sins but not all grave sins are mortal sins. I’m having a problem understanding what you are saying. Abortion is a grave sin - that is ONE criterion. But all three criteria must be present for abortion to be a mortal sin. The objectivity is inherent in the first criterion only.

In a way you are correct because abortion is objectively grave. But the other two criteria are not objective but subjective.

Is this what you are saying? Are we talking past each other?

I have a headache. 😦
The term Mortal sin and the term* Grave sin* and the term Serious sin

Are interchangable.

A grave sin IS a mortal sin. A Mortal sin IS a Grave sin. A Serious sin IS a Mortal/grave sin.

The three terms get used for the very same thing by the Church and in Theology.

One can say “Abortion is a mortal sin” or one can say “Abortion is a grave sin”

that is in the objective sense (the sense I would think was meant by the apologist).

One then moves to the subjective sense --did a person *commit * a grave sin (mortal sin/ serious sin)??

One can thus say “There was grave matter, I committed it with full knowledge and deliberate consent so I committed a grave sin”

Or

“There was grave matter, I committed it with full knowledge and deliberate consent so I committed a mortal sin”

Meaning the very same (with the one emph. the fact that it was grave and not venial and the other emph. the result that it thus “killed” the ones life of grace)

It is not that there is a “grave sin” and it becomes a “mortal sin” if one has full knowledge and complete consent.

Mortal sin = Grave sin.

Rather one has a grave matter (a matter that is objectively grave sin or one could say an objectively mortal sin) and if one does it with the needed full knowledge and deliberate consent --then one has committed a grave sin (mortal sin).

ALL *grave sins * are Mortal sins.

But all sins that involve * grave matter* are not mortal sins (grave sins/serious sins) for some are committed without either full knowledge or deliberate consent.
 
I have a headache. 😦
🙂

**This really is at the root of the reason for your starting this thread. **

Mortal Sin = Grave sin= Serious sin (both in terms of the “nature” of the action/omission in itself (abortion is a mortal sin/grave sin/serious sin) and in terms of the “committing” and thus requirement to “confess” of the personal sin)

A Few Examples:

CCC1385: “Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.”

From: The Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

"304. Which sins must be confessed?

1456

All **grave sins **not yet confessed, which a careful examination of conscience brings to mind, must be brought to the sacrament of Penance. The confession of serious sins is the only ordinary way to obtain forgiveness." (see also Canon Law …the term is used there too).

(one sees in the above the use of “grave sin” for what was actually *committed *–with full knowledge and deliberate consent–for we know one is not obliged to confess that which did not have the three aspects needed)
  1. What is required to receive Holy Communion?
1385-1389
1415

To receive Holy Communion one must be fully incorporated into the Catholic Church and be in the state of grace, that is, not conscious of being in** mortal sin**. Anyone who is conscious of having committed a grave sin must first receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before going to Communion.

(note that one used BOTH to mean the same thing in the same paragraph…)

“However, it must be remembered that the church, guided by faith in this great sacrament, teaches that no Christian who is conscious of** grave sin** can receive the eucharist before having obtained God’s forgiveness.”

Pope John Paul II Reconciliatio et Paenitentia 17

In MISERICORDIA DEI he also noted:

“Individual and integral confession and absolution are the sole ordinary means by which the faithful, conscious of grave sin, are reconciled with God and the Church; only physical or moral impossibility excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation can be obtained in other ways”

and

Since “the faithful are obliged to confess, according to kind and number, **all grave sins **committed after Baptism of which they are conscious after careful examination and which have not yet been directly remitted by the Church’s power of the keys

And in a speech from Pope John Paul II

“The sacrament of Penance is meant to take away personal sins committed after Baptism: first of all mortal sins, then venial. If the penitent has committed more than one mortal sin, they can only be remitted all at once. In fact, the remission of serious sin consists in the infusion of the sanctifying grace which has been lost, and grace is incompatible with any and every** serious sin**. Venial sins are to be regarded differently…”

and in ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA

“If a Christian’s conscience is burdened by serious sin, then the path of penance through the sacrament of Reconciliation becomes necessary for full participation in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.”

And Pope Benedict XVI in his Catecheses with Children said:

"Only in that case, when you are in a state of “mortal” sin, in other words, grave (sin), is it necessary to go to confession before Communion. This is my first point. " In 2005

In another place he said in 2007:

“The faithful, in their turn, must seek to receive and to venerate the Most Holy Sacrament with piety and devotion, eager to welcome the Lord Jesus with faith, and having recourse, whenever necessary, to the sacrament of reconciliation so as to purify the soul from every grave sin.”
 
All mortal sins are grave sins but not all grave sins are mortal sins. I’m having a problem understanding what you are saying. Abortion is a grave sin - that is ONE criterion. But all three criteria must be present for abortion to be a mortal sin. The objectivity is inherent in the first criterion only.

In a way you are correct because abortion is objectively grave. But the other two criteria are not objective but subjective.

Is this what you are saying? Are we talking past each other?

I have a headache. 😦
Do not get into this discussions with Bookcat if you do not want a headache. :D:D:D
I went through your same experience a few months ago by PMing back and forth with him, it was frustrating but a really good learning experience. 👍
 
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