Abortion, Deathpenalty, Intrinsic Value of Life?

[vern_humphrey]

That is why I underlined the word “just” in just expiation. When it comes to respect for life, our government has a ways to go.

How can a nation which allows hundreds of thousands of the most helpless and innocent to be put to death on mere whim ever come to a resepct for life?

 

[wildleafblower]

I thought it best to share with our audience (Catholic and non-Catholic members) subject matter which I think pertains to this topic of discussion:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER TWO
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”
ARTICLE 5
THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT
You shall not kill… [speaks about Abortion, Euthanasia (Abortion), Avoiding War (*legitimate defense by military force)]
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

And . . .

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
CHAPTER ONE
**THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON **
ARTICLE 8
**SIN **
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#II
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#II

Foremost, keeping in mind the most important objective for us Catholics would be in my opinion:
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
CHAPTER ONE
**THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON **
ARTICLE 7
**THE VIRTUES **
1803 "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things."62

A virtue is an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. It allows the person not only to perform good acts, but to give the best of himself. The virtuous person tends toward the good with all his sensory and spiritual powers; he pursues the good and chooses it in concrete actions.
The goal of a virtuous life is to become like God.3

.]
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm

I really do think in all fairness, the Magisterium strives to inform Catholics of the importance which a healthy balance includes prevention and healing.

At this particular time in history a major concern of mine is caring for war veterans. The National Institute of Mental Health has a recent article, Virtual Reality, Psychotherapy, Show Promise in Treating PTSD Symptoms; Civilian Access to Care Remains a Concern. I hope everyone will read it.
nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2008/virtual-reality-psychotherapy-show-promise-in-treating-ptsd-symptoms-civilian-access-to-care-remains-a-concern.shtml
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-new...vilian-access-to-care-remains-a-concern.shtml

God bless our Vets! Don’t ever forget they have or do put their life on the line for us. Why? Because they love us and want peace in the world. (Vern, forgive me but I’m going to have to get back to you tomorrow cause I’m too pooped from my weekend and I got stuff to do like paying the bills.)

 

[Super_Grover]

How can a nation which allows hundreds of thousands of the most helpless and innocent to be put to death on mere whim ever come to a resepct for life?

Hopefully with prayer. With the Feast of the Ascension this past week, it occurs to me that we ought to pray for our leaders and ourselves for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Fortitude particularly comes to mind for those of us who recognize the evil and do not do enough (most definitely including myself).

But I get your point as it’s the same one I made as to our continued legitimacy to make decisions about capital punishment given the atrophied and deformed moral reasoning reflected in our Nation. Ender responded nicely to that. SoCalRC also responded with thought-provoking comments. This thread has been pretty amazing, at times.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hopefully with prayer. With the Feast of the Ascension this past week, it occurs to me that we ought to pray for our leaders and ourselves for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Fortitude particularly comes to mind for those of us who recognize the evil and do not do enough (most definitely including myself).

We pray for many things, including an end to poverty, hunger, and so on. But that doesn’t mean we stop giving to charity, working to educate children, and so on.

We must work to change this nation – and how can we instil a respect for life when the most innocent and helpless amongst us can be killed on an assembly line basis?

But I get your point as it’s the same one I made as to our continued legitimacy to make decisions about capital punishment given the atrophied and deformed moral reasoning reflected in our Nation. Ender responded nicely to that. SoCalRC also responded with thought-provoking comments. This thread has been pretty amazing, at times.

Amazing, indeed.

 

[Ender]

This is the problem with the ‘instrument of God’ model of death penalty theology. We cannot absolutely know the mind of God.

We may certainly claim to know the mind of God where he has revealed it to us; of what other purpose are the Scriptures?

It is a presumption on our part to assert we do.

It is a rejection of the Church’s role to assert that we do not:

“The church gratefully accepts and lovingly preserves the entire deposit of Revelation, treating it with religious respect and fulfilling her mission of authentically interpreting God’s law in the light of the Gospel.” (Veritatis splendor 45)

Using your logic, the convict could rightously pursue suicide as proper atonement for sin.

My logic is nothing more than an application of the Church’s teachings; since the Church teaches that suicide is forbidden “my logic” would never reach such a conclusion.

Ender

 

[vz71]

I apologize for the presumption. I will ask.

Thanks.

All other things being equal, which do you think is more of a harm to meaningful communion with Rome?

-believing that abortion should remain legal
-believing that the death penalty should remain legal and that the decision to go to war with Iraq was morally justified

Believing abortion should be legal.

I would also like to know the “why” behind your response.

The death penalty has not been labeled an intrinsic evil. In fact, the morality in keeping the death penalty legal has to do with the efficiency of the legal system in protecting the people.
At present, it can be argued readily that our technology has reached a point where it is possible to lock someone away forever. This could keep the public safe from that criminal forever, and would negate any argument for the moral use of the death penalty.
However, it can also be argued readily that our current system of laws makes it virtually impossible to keep someone locked away forever. In fact, with the system we currently have, it can easily be said that the ability of the criminal to cause harm extends long after any type of conviction. Ours is a broken system, and keeping the public safe from any given criminal forever is not a guarantee. So the death penalty can still be used morally.
In either case, the death penalty is still up to the government…not the church.

Now as for the war in Iraq.
For or against, I do not care. I simply submit that it is not possible to judge a war unjust until after the hostilities have ceased. I personally agree with the decision to go to war. Others may not. But until the end of hostilities, there is no way to really tally up the problems created by the war and compare them to the regime that was in place.
With no way to do a comparison, ‘unjust’ cannot be applied.

So of the three that we are given here: abortion, the death penalty, and the war in Iraq, the only real way to stay in line with the church is to keep these issues as the separate issues that they are.
Abortion is evil. There are no exceptions at all.
The death penalty can be considered evil, but there are exceptions, and the church has handed over the usage of it to the government.
The war in Iraq may be considered evil, or good. But there is no way to tell until it is all over.

Now let’s turn this around.
The church actively tells us that the death penalty is not an intrinsic evil. There can be exceptions, and its application is up to the state. So how is it in line with church doctrine to claim otherwise?
How is it in line with church teaching to claim a war is unjust when there is no way to tell?

 

[Super_Grover]

We pray for many things, including an end to poverty, hunger, and so on. But that doesn’t mean we stop giving to charity, working to educate children, and so on.

We must work to change this nation – and how can we instil a respect for life when the most innocent and helpless amongst us can be killed on an assembly line basis?

I think that we are in agreement. I am stressing that we have descended so far that our charitable works and our political action will require supernatural assistance (through prayer) to climb out this abyss.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think that we are in agreement. I am stressing that we have descended so far that our charitable works and our political action will require supernatural assistance (through prayer) to climb out this abyss.

But the supernatural assistance must be accompanied by superhuman effort on our part.

 

[Brendan]

This is the problem with the ‘instrument of God’ model of death penalty theology. We cannot absolutely know the mind of God. It is a presumption on our part to assert we do.

Actually, we do have a very good idea of when the State is acting as an instrument of God. It does so when it punishes the evildoer.

St. Paul himself said so.

Romans 13:3-4

Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Aquinas used that very passage when he noted that it was permissable to kill a person to safeguard the community

Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since “a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump”

-ST IIa-IIae, q. 64, a. 2.

Which the Angelic Doctor followed with:

As stated above (Article 2), it is lawful to kill an evildoer in so far as it is directed to the welfare of the whole community, so that it belongs to him alone who has charge of the community’s welfare. Thus it belongs to a physician to cut off a decayed limb, when he has been entrusted with the care of the health of the whole body. Now the care of the common good is entrusted to persons of rank having public authority: wherefore they alone, and not private individuals, can lawfully put evildoers to death

-ST IIa-IIae, q. 64, a. 3.

 

[Super_Grover]

But the supernatural assistance must be accompanied by superhuman effort on our part.

Word.

 

[frankadams]

Thanks.

Believing abortion should be legal.

The death penalty has not been labeled an intrinsic evil. In fact, the morality in keeping the death penalty legal has to do with the efficiency of the legal system in protecting the people.
At present, it can be argued readily that our technology has reached a point where it is possible to lock someone away forever. This could keep the public safe from that criminal forever, and would negate any argument for the moral use of the death penalty.
However, it can also be argued readily that our current system of laws makes it virtually impossible to keep someone locked away forever. In fact, with the system we currently have, it can easily be said that the ability of the criminal to cause harm extends long after any type of conviction. Ours is a broken system, and keeping the public safe from any given criminal forever is not a guarantee. So the death penalty can still be used morally.
In either case, the death penalty is still up to the government…not the church.

Now as for the war in Iraq.
For or against, I do not care. I simply submit that it is not possible to judge a war unjust until after the hostilities have ceased. I personally agree with the decision to go to war. Others may not. But until the end of hostilities, there is no way to really tally up the problems created by the war and compare them to the regime that was in place.
With no way to do a comparison, ‘unjust’ cannot be applied.

So of the three that we are given here: abortion, the death penalty, and the war in Iraq, the only real way to stay in line with the church is to keep these issues as the separate issues that they are.
Abortion is evil. There are no exceptions at all.
The death penalty can be considered evil, but there are exceptions, and the church has handed over the usage of it to the government.
The war in Iraq may be considered evil, or good. But there is no way to tell until it is all over.

Now let’s turn this around.
The church actively tells us that the death penalty is not an intrinsic evil. There can be exceptions, and its application is up to the state. So how is it in line with church doctrine to claim otherwise?
How is it in line with church teaching to claim a war is unjust when there is no way to tell?

Thanks for your reply. I believe that I have already basically reaffirmed your statement that the death penalty and war are “not on par” with abortion…My issue is more about the predominant approach on CAF. I think it goes back to an earlier post of mine. One may not disagree with the Church on abortion. One may disagree with the Church on capital punishment and war. As you have likely noticed, a predominant amount of CAF posters agree with the Church on abortion, but not on capital punishment… The Pope, the Vatican, and the USCCB have called for an end to the death penalty. The Pope, the Vatican, and the USCCB called for our country to not go to war with Iraq. For the latter issue, specific criteria of Just War Theory (just cause, last resort, proportionality, and probability of success) were cited as being among their reasons for opposing it… I take issue with your assertion that “the only real way to stay in line with the church is to keep these issues as the separate issues that they are.” Weighing mechanisms aside, the Church has repeatedly articulated their connection…We have a Church which calls for us to build a “culture of life.” We have a Church which tells us that, weighing mechanisms aside, that all life issues (above issues, assisted-suicide, etc.) are of vital importance and that Catholic statements on all of the issues are called to promote this culture of life. We have a Church which tells us that support for war and capital punishment hurt this effort and, in fact, promote a “culture of death,” contribute to society that finds it easier to dispose of human life because we unnecessarily terminate human life in other arenas…I will repeat my earlier assertion. The Church opposed the war. The Church opposes capital punishment. Most of the posters here did not oppose the war. Most of the posters here support capital punishment. I find that unfortunate. I feel that we can better transform this culture when we support the Church on all issues pertaining to the sanctity of human life. …Instead, so many of these posts are dedicated to telling the rest of us “I’m allowed to disregard Church teaching on capital punishment and war. And so I do.”

 

[frankadams]

Actually, we do have a very good idea of when the State is acting as an instrument of God. It does so when it punishes the evildoer.
.

I for one yield to the the instruction of my Church leadership on this issue. I will not yield it to the leader of the State because of the words of St. Paul or St. Thomas Aquinas. I will instead defer to my Pope, my Vatican, and my bishops on this issue.............................................................I think your interpretations suggest that if a leader executes evildoers who assault or rob or defraud or even those whose evil comes in the form of political or religious dissension, I am bound to conclude that the "State is acting as an instrument of God." No State, no matter what Paul of Tarsus tells us, does God's will when they unnaturally end human life unnecessarily

 

[vern_humphrey]

Instead, so many of these posts are dedicated to telling the rest of us “I’m allowed to disregard Church teaching on capital punishment and war. And so I do.”

As opposed to so many of these posts dedicated to telling the rest of us, “There is no perfect candidate, so the moral choice is to vote for the pro-abortion candidate?”

 

[frankadams]

Now let’s turn this around.
The church actively tells us that the death penalty is not an intrinsic evil. There can be exceptions, and its application is up to the state. So how is it in line with church doctrine to claim otherwise?
How is it in line with church teaching to claim a war is unjust when there is no way to tell?

I did not claim that the death penalty is an intrinsic evil. I stated just the opposite. …Regarding the war, when the Pope, the Vatican, and USCCB called for the United States to not go to war with Iraq and cited multiple criteria of Just War Theory to explain its opposition, I fell in line with Holy Mother Church and opposed this war. There is “no way to tell?” In light of that sort of thinking, why even have Just War Theory?.. I followed my Church in this matter. You and many others have gone to tremendous lengths to tell me why you are allowed to disregard the Church in this matter.

 

[mapleoak]

But the supernatural assistance must be accompanied by superhuman effort on our part.

Exactly. God expects us to trust fully in Him and to do our part as well, which means once we are exhausted from battle, then we step it up a notch.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Exactly. God expects us to trust fully in Him and to do our part as well, which means once we are exhausted from battle, then we step it up a notch.

We are facing the greatest challenge the Church has ever faced, and God expects us to do His will.

 

[Amolibri]

If life in prison actually protects society adequately then the criminal may not be executed even if that is necessary for the full remission of his sin and reconciliation with God.
Ender

Who says?? You?

 

[Amolibri]

I for one yield to the the instruction of my Church leadership on this issue. I will not yield it to the leader of the State because of the words of St. Paul or St. Thomas Aquinas. I will instead defer to my Pope, my Vatican, and my bishops on this issue.............................................................I think your interpretations suggest that if a leader executes evildoers who assault or rob or defraud or even those whose evil comes in the form of political or religious dissension, I am bound to conclude that the "State is acting as an instrument of God." **No State, no matter what Paul of Tarsus tells us, does God's will when they unnaturally end human life unnecessarily**

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[vern_humphrey]

Originally Posted by Ender
If life in prison actually protects society adequately then the criminal may not be executed even if that is necessary for the full remission of his sin and reconciliation with God.
Ender

Who says?? You?

No, the Church says it:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

 

[Ender]

No State, no matter what Paul of Tarsus tells us, does God’s will when they unnaturally end human life unnecessarily

Whoa, it’s a little more refined than that and you have shifted the focus from those who are justly executed to those who are unjustly executed. Let’s keep it focused where it belongs.

When the state executes someone it does so as God’s minister. This is set out in Romans 13:4 and has been taught by the Church since Augustine. The individuals who represent the authority of the state will be judged on how they carry out their duties; they don’t get a free pass to be wicked simply because they have been given authority to act. They will be judged on whether they properly use that authority.

I would be more than a little reticent to ever start a sentence with: “No matter what St. Paul says …”

Ender