Abortion, Deathpenalty, Intrinsic Value of Life?

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I will address the heart of your post as I find time today, as it requires a thorough response. For now, I am just going to address a couple of the smaller issues.

Prevention is “only one of the criteria under Church doctrine” when it comes to punishment overall. But the Church treats capital punishment separately as involves the willful ending of human life. When it comes to this particular punishment, prevention is the only criterion. The Catechism does not do this for any other type of punishment.

We obviously lose a strong post-incarceration deterrent when abolishing the death penalty, but I think you overstate your case. I would take issue with your statement that “without it, there is no deterrent at all to in-prison murders.” One of the reasons even the toughest of wardens favor some “privileges” (TV, an hour outside, access to a library) and some “extra punishments” (solitary, the “hole,” etc.) is that these “carrots” and “sticks” give incentives and disincentives to obey/not obey prison rules. The thought of spending the rest of one’s years in a solitary confinement cell barely bigger than your body** is** a deterrent to **some **prisoners currently in “normal” incarceration. I emphasize, some, not all.
And there is the key, “I emphasize, some, not all.

Some killers can reach outside the prison. Some killers can intimidate the Corrections Officers by threatening their families. Some suspects are willing to kill police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges.
 
EVERYBODY MUST MUST SEE GLENN BECK TONIGHT (MAY 8) on CNN HEADLINE NEWS!!!

There is a doctor on who believes that LIFE does not begin until AGE 2!!! And that it should be legal to kill your handicapped, physically deformed or ill child prior to that age!!!

It is what I have been saying for years, the ABORTION MENTALITY will ultimately lead to a general disrespect for life.

I read an article (in Utne Reader I think) where a guy said that a fetus is not protected by the Right to Life because it doesn’t have a birth certificate. Hence, a new-born child left in a dumpster isn’t a protected human either!!!

Now someone proposes to raise the age of “real life” to 2 YEARS!!!

Watch and learn!
 
And there is the key, “I emphasize, some, not all.

Some killers can reach outside the prison. Some killers can intimidate the Corrections Officers by threatening their families. Some suspects are willing to kill police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges.
My post mentioned nothing about suspects, but you are correct. We ought to execute them as well.
 
My post mentioned nothing about suspects, but you are correct. We ought to execute them as well.
When fairly convicted.

But consider: Suppose you were facing a sentence of life without parole. And suppose by killing a witness, you might completely escape punishment, and the worst thing that could happen would be that you might get two life sentences.

That’s a formula for encouraging the most depraved criminals to take over the justice system.
 
Wow! five pages the first day. I will have to go back and agree with a first page poster that the whole argument is a straw man. No one I have known has ever suggested that abortion have a death penalty attached to it. That’s just nuts. It is also contrary to Church teaching in the CCC that the death penalty is only a last resort when needed to protect society.
👍
 
When fairly convicted.

But consider: Suppose you were facing a sentence of life without parole. And suppose by killing a witness, you might completely escape punishment, and the worst thing that could happen would be that you might get two life sentences.

That’s a formula for encouraging the most depraved criminals to take over the justice system.
When fairly convicted…read anything about that issue lately??

*Vern, methinks you’ve been watching too much “Law&Order”. 😊 *
 
When fairly convicted…read anything about that issue lately??

*Vern, methinks you’ve been watching too much “Law&Order”. 😊 *
I gather you have some meaning hiding in that post, but danged if I can figure it out.
 
But consider: Suppose you were facing a sentence of life without parole. And suppose by killing a witness, you might completely escape punishment, and the worst thing that could happen would be that you might get two life sentences.

That’s a formula for encouraging the most depraved criminals to take over the justice system.
You’re right. I mean, the European Union does it this way and most of those countries now resemble Somalia.
 
I am unfamiliar with your concept of “fairly convicted” suspects. I had always thought that a person convicted of a crime is now guilty of that crime rather than being suspected of that crime.
It’s fairly simple. A crime is committed. The police identify a suspect. Evidence is presented to a court or grand jury, and a bill of indictment is issued. The suspect is tried. And, if he is fairly convicted, he is sentenced.
 
Originally Posted by frankadams forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
My post mentioned nothing about suspects, but you are correct. We ought to execute them as well.

I am unfamiliar with your concept of “fairly convicted” suspects. I had always thought that a person convicted of a crime is now guilty of that crime rather than being suspected of that crime.
I invite all to read about the “fairly” convicted. www.nyadp.org (The Innocence Project) The *prison industry *in this country is a national shame. I do not speak in the abstract…as others do. Those of us who have seen and can see human beings and not statisics, can know the toll this system has taken on our society.

I do not expect that many would understand.
Remember the prisoners, as though in prison with them, and those who are ill-treated, since you yourselves also are in the body. Hebrews 13:3
 
Some killers can reach outside the prison. Some killers can intimidate the Corrections Officers by threatening their families. Some suspects are willing to kill police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges.
My post mentioned nothing about suspects, but you are correct. We ought to execute them as well.
When fairly convicted.
I am unfamiliar with your concept of “fairly convicted” suspects. I had always thought that a person convicted of a crime is now guilty of that crime rather than being suspected of that crime.
It’s fairly simple. A crime is committed. The police identify a suspect. Evidence is presented to a court or grand jury, and a bill of indictment is issued. The suspect is tried. And, if he is fairly convicted, he is sentenced.
“Fairly simple?”

Let’s see, first we have executing “suspects” because they can kill “police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges.”

Next we have your post telling us that you really meant “fairly convicted” suspects (our Creator knows how many times on these boards you have crucified others for trying to clear up what they “really meant”).

And then you tell us that “suspect” is a perfect euphemism for “convicted killer.” Remind me to correct the next news agency that fails to refer to the “suspects on death row” or the “number of suspects executed in the United States last year.”

After that, I’ll be busy trying to figure out why convicted killers (sorry! I meant “suspects”) are still trying to kill police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges. I mean, you think they might focus their muderous energies killing guards and escaping.
 
“Fairly simple?”

Let’s see, first we have executing “suspects” because they can kill “police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges.”
No, **you **introduced the word suspects to this debate. I corrected you by saying only when fairly convicted.
 
No, **you **introduced the word suspects to this debate. I corrected you by saying only when fairly convicted.
Vern, if you can show that I introduced the term “supsects” into this debate that began when Ridgerunner and I disagreed about “in-prison” deterrents, I will never post here again and will dedicate my life to studying your wisdom.

Once again, you are flat-out wrong.
 
First you say one thing, then you say another.

You seem confused.😉
My message is consistant, if you are having trouble understanding it, or the Church documents in support of it, I have offered to help you.
But let me see if I understand you – if no candidate is perfect (as will always be the case), then we can forget about abortion? We can reject the imperfect pro-life candidate and vote for the pro-abortion candidate (who is, of course, even less perfect) on other grounds – like his stance on penguin preservation?
Repeating a defective correlary does not make it true. The point is we can never forget about abortion. If it comes down to political life vs. God’s law, we are supposed to choose God’s law.

Compromising on intrinsic evil makes us complicent with intrinsic evil. If you want to insist that you have a right to vote pro choice on abortion, I cannot stop you. Changing the semantics (‘no, ‘pro choice’ means supporting Roe, I only support killing some babies…’) does not change the vote. You either support attacks on human life our you do not. Some attacks are absolutes in the Catholic faith.

Why you put political activity ahead of an absolute in the faith I cannot say. However, if I were to do so I would agree with Pope Benedict’s assessment during his recent visit, that I would be engaging in a form of idolatry.
I find it interesting we forget we have a living magisterium. We do not need some posters to interpret Church teaching and spin it around to mean whatever they choose.

The Bishop’s conference asked the proper authority how to apply these teachings. Here is part of the reply:

Note the wise Cardinal does not say we may ever compromise on anything. He uses constant Church moral teaching. It all reconciles nicely.

Where is the problem?
The Bishop’s asked about the application of CIC 915 with regards to politicians. They got an answer from a Cardinal.

If you want to ask about the laity and voting, we, as you say, do not have to guess:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

This is a Doctrinal Note, prepared by the same Cardinal and approved by our last Pope. Our Current Pope refers to this document in his declaration on Holy Communion. You are quoting a letter from a Cardinal on a different subject to a different audience. I am quoting a Doctrinal Note, on the specific subject, from the Church to the lay faithful.

I’ve posted #4 and gone through it a section at a time. I’ve also shown other Papal documents which refer to the same document and use the same terms (non negotiable). If you want to cite the Magesterium, here it is. Show me how your alternative interpretation can be made to fit. Selecting lesser sources, such as a Cardinal’s private letter on a different subject, is intellectually dishonest. If your point of view is licit, it must be reconcillable with Rome. There is only one Vicar of Christ.
 
Originally Posted by vern humphrey
But consider: Suppose you were facing a sentence of life without parole. And suppose by killing a witness, you might completely escape punishment, and the worst thing that could happen would be that you might get two life sentences.

That’s a formula for encouraging the most depraved criminals to take over the justice system.

This is NOT a convicted person, you are referring to, sir.
 
Vern, if you can show that I introduced the term “supsects” into this debate that began when Ridgerunner and I disagreed about “in-prison” deterrents, I will never post here again and will dedicate my life to studying your wisdom.
I said in Post 101:
Originally posted by Vern Humphrey
Some killers can reach outside the prison. Some killers can intimidate the Corrections Officers by threatening their families. Some suspects are willing to kill police, witnesses, prosecutors, jurors and judges.
Note that I said “Killers” – didn’t mention one word about “suspects.”
Then you said in Post 103
Originally posted by Sam Adams
My post mentioned nothing about suspects, but you are correct. We ought to execute them as well.
And I corrected (very politely) your comment in Post 105:
Originally posted by Vern Humphrey
When fairly convicted.
Once again, you are flat-out wrong.
Obviously not.😉

Bring your mat, so you can assume the lotus position while you dedicate your life to studying my wisdom
 
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