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livingwordunity
Guest
And that’s why cases like this happen.??Trap law?In your mind.
Anytime anyone suggests some regulation of the abortion industry, the pro-aborts cry foul.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Because that would get in the way of a woman’s “reproductive” rights! They have the right to choose a bloody unsanitary place to get their abortions!
Not according to Bella!
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
All we are asking is that clinics that provide abortions are held to the same standards other clinics are held to. That includes full disclosure that the “products of conception” is actually a human being with a heartbeat and a face.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
From the article, one of the babies was alive, kicking and breathing for 20 minutes. What is this guy arguing?
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
He’s grasping at straws. You usually know you’ve lost when you start hearing this type of silliness.From the article, one of the babies was alive, kicking and breathing for 20 minutes. What is this guy arguing?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
One of the babies whose murder case was dismissed is Baby Boy B. How is this not murder??
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rlg94086
Guest
Not sure. Did he bring up that pro-lifers are a bunch of meanies for humiliating and punishing women who are seeking abortions?From the article, one of the babies was alive, kicking and breathing for 20 minutes. What is this guy arguing?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
You left out the part where we step on puppy tails.
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LisaA
Guest
Look, I began our dialogue by pointing out that I completely agree that we, as believing and practicing Catholics need to also focus on why women would make this “choice” when there are clearly many options available.
However your response was to claim that laws applying to abortuaries are enacted either to “trap” abortion clinics or humiliate their clients rather than to uphold medical standards, restrict abortions in some cases (such as when a baby is nearly ready to be delivered!), and provide sufficient information so that the woman is making an informed choice.
You ignored the suggestion that had such standards, inspections and restrictions applied, Dr Gosnell would not have been able to operate freely for decades.
You ignored the many times you were asked to document these “trap” laws. You ignored several posters’ asking where trans-vaginal ultrasounds were required.
You quoted NARAL which clearly has a vested interest in promoting abortion suggesting we consider their claims they are really trying to help women by making millions aborting their babies. Follow the money bellsabane and you will see the REAL incentive behind their support of abortion.
You ignored the MSM reports that they deliberately avoided covering this trial due to the subject matter and the hot button of abortion rights and access.
You ignored the reality that the abortion lobby has the Democrat party and the bully pulpit on their side via the MSM and that many attempts to break through with information and options for women are thwarted as women are herded like cattle through the abortion mills. Do you TRULY think that if Planned Parenthood only refers 1% of its patients to adoption agencies and 99% of its patients to abortions that they are providing information on these options?
I agree that some of the women are unable to figure out alternatives to abortion. In fact the woman that Gosnell killed apparently couldn’t speak English. But doesn’t that mean the abortuaries have a duty to be sure these women are fully informed of both the risks and the options available. Do you think this side of the issue has done THEIR duty?
I can only conclude that your sympathies lie with the abortion providers and women seeking abortions. While we can all support charity toward women, many of whom are simply ignorant rather than malicious, the idea that the merchants of death have any redeeming qualities is rather hard to swallow from a fellow Catholic.
Lisa
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LisaA
Guest
Truly sickening. I do know that when the defense claimed that the babies were “already dead” the medical expert stated that there would be NO reason to cut the spinal cords of the babies UNLESS they were trying to assure “fetal demise.”
I wonder if the dismissal was due to inability to prove it was Gosnell who cut the spinal cord? According to several former employees, they also killed the born babies.
Lisa
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losh14
Guest
GASP!! Self-control? Abstinence? That’s… that’s… we’re not capable of such things, it’s so natural, it’s entirely a part of what it … yeah I’ll stop. I’ll stop because, you’re right, it’s a lousy situation that people get themselves into and one that’s completely preventable. Human beings are capable of abstinence and many do (or should, anyway) abstain in order to focus on more important things. I think of all the time I wasted as an undergrad chasing girls from whom I wanted nothing but a little pleasure… and now, as a married father and the sole source of income, I spend much of my free time studying up on what I missed in order to advance my career. Had I avoided sex - or dating altogether, for that matter - as an undergrad, I could provide so much better for my family now.
Unfortunately, the situations like I note above are often where the agencies encounter women. A woman who isn’t sexually-active but likes the idea of abortion being her choice, just in case one day, has to be approached differently from a woman who is pregnant and has made an appointment at the abortion clinic. We’ve got to meet people where they are, even if they made bad choices to get there.
It’s fair to examine any such laws regulating health and safety standards to ensure they do not over-reach. I think that requiring standards of comparable outpatient surgical facility should be sufficient - we’re still talking surgery, with attendant risks of infection, blood loss, and possibility of rupture or other complications. Consider that doctors frequently, though not always, keep a woman in hospital overnight after she suffers a miscarriage just to be safe. Would this be a burden on a poor woman? Absolutely, but within the larger discussion over how to provide for the health of the poor, this needs to be a part of it. We cannot continue to accept substandard care for the poor under the umbrella of lowering barriers to getting an abortion.
What’s more important here is the inspection routine, which was entirely lost years ago. Even without objective standards in this case, had Penn performed routine inspections of all abortion facilities, Gosnell would have been called to task much earlier.
The Taliban would’ve gone beyond requiring medical standards. Instead they’d require women to see only female doctors, and prohibit women from going to med school.
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losh14
Guest
I’m sure it’s intimidating to have a large entity with prominent persons and money going against your position. Add threat of armed violence and you have the weight of government against you. I think of the family who runs the Mayflower Inn in Vermont, who were compelled, under the full weight of the State of Vermont, to stop hosting weddings because an employee told a gay couple they couldn’t get married there (interestingly, the same employee offered to be the couple’s wedding planner if they went with another location).
Absolutely worthy of celebration, and encouraging news that with enough social pressure we can perhaps turn attention when needed, despite reporters’ biases.
I think we can say without doubt that media outlets have known biases and these are reflected in the choice of stories. Conspiracy or not, money trail or not, many journalists get into the field with the hope of driving reform or supporting activism. It’s thereby a selective process what is reported on and what angle is taken. Much has been made, for example, of the number of stories generated by the clergy sex abuse scandal as opposed to the number generated by the scandal of abuse by teachers in the LA Unified Public School District, despite comparable size and scope of number of victims. We can similarly describe under-coverage of pro-life marches and rallies, harsh interviews at Tea Party rallies but supportive ones of the Occupy Movement. When Archbishop Carlson was installed in St. Louis last year, the local news spent 20 seconds on the installation, and 90 seconds on a group of about a dozen people protesting outside the Basilica.
The point isn’t to harp and lament, but rather to recognize that the bias exists and know that not everyone is your friend. It also means holding up the powerful to scrutiny and never accepting that someone in authority should be exempt from criticism.
Speaking of intimidation, it is rather intimidating to wonder whether you’re getting the whole, realize that you’re not, and - especially as a father - knowing that I need to teach my kids to filter and lens their information for their own well-being. It’s intimidating when my liberal friends bring up abortion, I tell them I’m pro-life, and they accost me for shooting at abortion doctors (something I’ve never done). Or when I tell people I’m Catholic and they demand an explanation for the sex abuse scandal.
I don’t think of myself as a victim - even that one time an atheist punched me at a party*, O took him down fairly easily and without hurting him. I do realize that we’re all at odds here, and as often as I may step on toes, others step on mine, so I can’t stand still.
*Unrelated thought to that atheist at the party - a good reason for sobriety is that, no matter how many drunk and belligerent people tell the police that I started it, they’ll always believe the sober guy who isn’t yelling or cursing.
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bellasbane
Guest
These are hardly “non-issues”. Pro-birth activists are perceived as uncaring and judgmental for a reason. Calling issues that many women believe to be critically important “non- issues” is a good example of why.
When did I say providing free ultrasounds was ever disingenuous? You just made that up. Go back and read the thread. What I said was that if the state mandates an ultrasound, the state should pay for it as a way of neutralizing the complaint that the law was punitive.
*“We have provided you with easily available alternative pregnancy centers that offer FREE ultrasounds, pregnancy tests, counseling, and place to stay to have the baby.” *
That’s great, but raising a kid is a 20+ year commitment. Women aren’t stupid and with 1 baby adopted for every 100 babies that are aborted, it clearly is not enough. We need to change the culture. Cardinal Seán seems to think we can do a lot more about changing people’s views on adoption. That sounds like a good place to start to me.
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livingwordunity
Guest
I’ve been in debates where the ones arguing for “abortion rights” said that they know that it’s murder but still insisted that it’s a right.
It’s reason VS screaming emotion.
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It’s reason VS screaming emotion.
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jediliz
Guest
the judge, Judge Jeffrey Minehart, does anyone know who appointed him? Wouldn’t be surprised if it was Obama or Clinton (unless he was appointed by the governor and we know they refused to inspect the filthy murder slaughter house).
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LisaA
Guest
I don’t know about the above but in respect to the testimony, it was rather self contradictory. When this baby’s situation was brought up the ME was asked if he could say for certain that the baby was born alive and he said due to the circumstances (baby found frozen in a milk jug I think) he could not. However the prosecution asked if there were ANY reason to snip the spinal cord UNLESS it were to kill the baby, he said no there was no reason. According to the testimony I read, Gosnell’s attorney exploded at this response and the judge reprimanded him.
Yet he threw out the case…it’s very difficult to understand.
Further the ME said that the Gosnell situation was far beyond anything he had ever experienced, that the babies or parts of babies were frozen and he had to figure out how to thaw them so that the tissue would suffer the least compromise.
Sadly because of the situation, it will be difficult to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that these babies were born alive. I hope that the rest of the cases will not be tossed as well. The Baby B example seemed particularly beneficial to the prosecution. As you can see by the photo, this appears to be a nearly full term baby. The testimony also included the statistic that Gosnell had performed some ll,000 abortions.
We must pray justice is done on earth and have some peace that Gosnell’s soul will be judged by a higher power.
Lisa
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bellasbane
Guest
Cardinal Seán seems to think the status quo is not good enough and was calling for a change - a conversion. That is the message I got. I heard him say we need to be more like pro-choice advocates and “learn to focus more on the woman in crisis”. I don’t know why everyone thinks that is so controversial.
The numbers speak for themselves. Either other options are not “clearly” available or are not regarded as very good. Adoption is the example he used. We all think its a wonderful idea, but most women who face a crisis pregnancy think its a worse option than abortion. The women who went to Gosnell’s clinic are the perfect example of this - they were seeking late term abortions rather than waiting just a little while longer and giving the baby up for adoption. That’s mind-boggling to me.
I wrote it wrong. It should have been TRAP - meaning Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers. Laws that ignore equivalent types of medical clinics while imposing heavy regulations on abortion providers for the purpose of shutting them down. These types of laws have been introduced in Alabama, Indiana, North Dakota, Texas, Virginia, Mississippi, North Carolina and probably more to come.
You don’t need TRAP laws to shut down a clinic like the one Gosnell was running. He operated freely for decades because nobody cared to enforce the laws that were already on the books.
I quoted Ilyse Hogue of NARAL in response to the question: Given her position what does her group do to offer other options? Her response may not have been sincere, but it was certainly what I wanted to hear.
However, I’m willing to admit that NARAL’s real incentive is to protect the abortion industry, but only if you are willing to admit that the NRA’s real incentive is to protect the gun manufacturers. Follow the money… Can you admit the two groups are exactly the same? If the answer is “yes” then all is well. If it is “no” then we have a problem.
(continued on next post)
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bellasbane
Guest
No I didn’t. My first post was about the story finally breaking into the MSM and how reporters were being asked about why it took so long.
I think women are rational actors and are not being “herded like cattle through abortion mills”. They feel pressure from lots of sources, but ultimately they choose the option that provides the clearest resolution to their crisis. This is a cultural problem goes way back before Obama was elected. Why didn’t the Republicans do something about Planned Parenthood when they were in office?
I worry more about the people who have thought about their options and come to the conclusion that abortion is the least evil among them. They don’t care about the physical risks, because having a baby is risky too. They don’t care about the psychological damage, because giving a baby up seems like a more painful and less certain option. They don’t care about the cost, because they already have children and know how expensive they are to raise. These are the people I worry about.
I am surprised to hear that from a fellow Catholic. What do you think Jesus meant by “love your enemies”? Its easy to love those who agree with everything you believe. The challenge is to love people who disagree with you enough to at the very least understand where they are coming from. Understanding isn’t the same as agreeing with them and sometimes it allows you an “in” where you can get to them and show them a different way of thinking about things. I think that is what Jesus wants me to do.
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Maxirad
Guest
It’s a good thing PBS NewsHour brought up the case on Monday.
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