Abortion due to gender.

[RobnBobA1]

“You’re reading right, I don’t think humans become people until consciousness develops. 1 year olds aren’t yet aware of their existence, and their minds are not at the level where I would consider them people and worry about them being killed any more than I worry about animals being killed.”

Sorry to say this but flying fish, you are part of the problem of prochoice individuals. I kow of no person that thinks or really believes this. Even in the fringe of the prochoice community do we all agree that once a fetus leaves the body of the woman and is no longer using her body, she has no right to harm it, nor anyone else. While a 1 year old is not on the level of conscienceness as a 20 year old does not mean that it is not a person or a living human organism. Brain function is the definition of a complete whole singular human life in the medical community (meaning that lack of brain function through injury or old age is death although the body may be kept alive through artificial means) and it cannot be denied that a 1 year old presents with complete brain function, although the learning centers of its brain is still growing. when we learn, we create bridges between the neurons that are already formed, thus later when we have enough bridges of information build, we can access that in the terms of speech, problem solving, critical thinking, memory, cognitive skills, motor function etc. The brain of a 1 year old has all the components necessary to do these, just needs those bridges built from the new information that it is gathering by its senses.

 

[magic_stick]

I also talked about this in that thread. In short, the brain of a sleeping person is already capable of generating consciousness, so I would not be okay with killing someone who is sleeping.

If their brain lost the ability to generate consciousness (like say if they were injured to the point of being brain dead), then I wouldn’t consider them a person anymore…

Ok, what if they are knocked unconscious in an accident?

In case you are wondering, I don’t go around killing 1 year olds or otherwise mistreating children. I am generally a helpful person…

Im not saying you do, but your thought pattern wouldn’t allow you to adopt. I mean, you could be the nicest person in the world, but with your thinking that a 1 yr old is not a person, and that you wouldn’t worry about them being killed, that is not a mentally healthy thought pattern, psychological exame would determine that you are unfit. kwim?

By the way, you would have a problem with sex selection because in the areas where it is legal, I know in the US it is, it is for family balancing only, so you would need to have a boy already to sex select a girl, or a girl to sex select a boy. Microsort is the only company doing sex selection. The only other way is to sex select without having children already is to have a genetic problem with the specific gender you don’t want. Check their website.

 

[RobnBobA1]

“But from what I understand of the science, consciousness develops around the age of 2-3 years old. Before that, there isn’t a self aware person.”

My nephew is not even 2 years old indeed he is only 18 months, but he most certainly is self-aware, can talk, walk, recognize his parents, his aunts, his grandparents, his dog, another child that is watched with him. He can express that he wants food, or water, or a snack, that he wants to play on the computer, or watch elmo on the TV. He tells us in words that he wants to go outside for a walk around the block, he likes to be read to and recognizes pictures. Everytime the house phone rings he picks up his toy phone and holds it and then starts to talk into it because he knows that is what he is supposed to do with the phone, and that someone talks back to him. Just this morning he got into trouble for writing on the walls with marker. His mother put him into time out for 2 mintues, and in a minute he went up to her and told her sorry. They noticed that he had some marker on his face and took a baby wipe and wiped it off. A little while later he got into the babywipes, picked one up, walked to the wall and was scrubbing the marker off without being told. But you want to say that a 2 year old is not conscience of himself or others around him? I almost agree and say that it is a blessing that you do not have children yourself.

 

[magic_stick]

My choice would be to hire people who do sex selection before the fact, so that I wouldn’t have to worry about having an abortion. Believe me, I have no desire to have an abortion, and especially not at 5 months of pregnancy. I can’t imagine it being a very easy medical procedure at that stage, and if I could avoid it, I certainly would.

You say this, after you said this:

You’re reading right, I don’t think humans become people until consciousness develops. 1 year olds aren’t yet aware of their existence, and their minds are not at the level where I would consider them people and worry about them being killed any more than I worry about animals being killed.

You are all over the map. See, this is why I am saying there is no common sense here. It’s not normal thinking kwim?

 

[flyingfish]

You did say you would have an abortion if it was a boy.
Now you are worried because it would be at 5 months…are you worried for the baby, or for yourself?

Are you going to do IVF and then discard the boys? So your choice would be one dead baby due to abortion, or a few dead babies due to IVF.

Worried for myself, if I can avoid that kind of a procedure, I would.

I don’t know how they do sex selection, but if IVF is how it’s done then yeah. I have no issues with IVF.

 

[flyingfish]

“You’re reading right, I don’t think humans become people until consciousness develops. 1 year olds aren’t yet aware of their existence, and their minds are not at the level where I would consider them people and worry about them being killed any more than I worry about animals being killed.”

Sorry to say this but flying fish, you are part of the problem of prochoice individuals. I kow of no person that thinks or really believes this. Even in the fringe of the prochoice community do we all agree that once a fetus leaves the body of the woman and is no longer using her body, she has no right to harm it, nor anyone else. While a 1 year old is not on the level of conscienceness as a 20 year old does not mean that it is not a person or a living human organism. Brain function is the definition of a complete whole singular human life in the medical community (meaning that lack of brain function through injury or old age is death although the body may be kept alive through artificial means) and it cannot be denied that a 1 year old presents with complete brain function, although the learning centers of its brain is still growing. when we learn, we create bridges between the neurons that are already formed, thus later when we have enough bridges of information build, we can access that in the terms of speech, problem solving, critical thinking, memory, cognitive skills, motor function etc. The brain of a 1 year old has all the components necessary to do these, just needs those bridges built from the new information that it is gathering by its senses.

I didn’t say it was okay to harm it, I said killing it would not be murder. That’s a big difference. I don’t think it’s okay for people to go around killing animals just for the hell of it either. (There are animals who are more conscious than newborns, for example, adult chimps and dolphins might even be persons.)

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I didn’t say it was okay to harm it, I said killing it would not be murder. That’s a big difference. I don’t think it’s okay for people to go around killing animals just for the hell of it either. (There are animals who are more conscious than newborns, for example, adult chimps and dolphins might even be persons.)

nypost.com/p/news/local/woman_tot_slay_horror_iQzUMy33YZNejl9MfwUpkM

So the person who comitted this crime committed one act of murder and one act of -----------?
(fill in the blank, I’m curious)

 

[HarmonyServant]

RedSoxWife, both of your children are absolutely beautiful. May God give them many blessings.

FlyingFish; just wow. Your viewpoints are horrifying. My ten-month old niece, who can smile, clap, pout, and laugh isn’t a true person? Really? With her beating heart and functioning brain? Really? Prayers for you, dear. May your own beating heart be softened to the truth.

 

[CatholicSam]

As for the lady in the OP, I can’t help but thinking it would serve her right if her next baby IS a girl and is miscarried as a result of the CVS. I don’t *hope *that happens to her. Hopefully she falls deeply in love with her 2 boys and realizes what amazing blessings all babies are.

Flyingfish, here’s praying you have that same realization before it’s too late.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Yes, it would. Even the law, psychology, and most pro-choicers would disagree with you.

It takes a sick person, a very sick person, to think of killing a human baby. Yes, it is a person, yes, it does have consciousness. Yes, babies do have temperament and personality, psychology backs this up. Yes, they can feel. They may not understand what’s happening, but they can start to process.

Otherwise, why do they smile at you, even at barely a few months? Why do they laugh? Why do they cry if their parents put them down and stop when their parents pick them back up? Why do they have likes and dislikes (they can start even when they’re being nursed and their mom eats something gassy, spicy, or w/e)? Why do they cry when they need a diaper change? They know it doesn’t feel RIGHT!

Not to mention that there is a recognized innocence and vulnerability with a human baby. Why else were people so horrified with Otty Sanchez and others? It’s SICK!

That makes no sense.

 

[magic_stick]

I didn’t say it was okay to harm it, I said killing it would not be murder. That’s a big difference. I don’t think it’s okay for people to go around killing animals just for the hell of it either. (There are animals who are more conscious than newborns, for example, adult chimps and dolphins might even be persons.)

I am assuming you are talking about a baby. Killing him/her would be murder and is punishable by law. I am just curious, have you ever talked to a psychiatrist? I am not trying to be rude, but have you ever had mental help? If so, have you ever expressed this belief to someone? Have you ever expressed this belief to anyone off the internet?

 

[flyingfish]

I am assuming you are talking about a baby. Killing him/her would be murder and is punishable by law. I am just curious, have you ever talked to a psychiatrist? I am not trying to be rude, but have you ever had mental help? If so, have you ever expressed this belief to someone? Have you ever expressed this belief to anyone off the internet?

I have, incidentally in a debate with a pro life friend in real life. He told me my views were consistent

It’s not uncommon for people to define personhood as the presence of a conscious mind.

 

[magic_stick]

I have, incidentally in a debate with a pro life friend in real life. He told me my views were consistent

It’s not uncommon for people to define personhood as the presence of a conscious mind.

Doesn’t sound prolife to me. I know prolife people and I know prochoice and no one has these views. He is either severly misinformed or he is playing mind games with you. Think about it, you are on a prolife site right now and no one agreed with you. Plus, even main stream society agrees killing a 1 yr old is murder. People go to jail killing newborns… If your views were consistent, people wouldn’t go to jail. See what I am saying?

A person in an accident who is knocked unconscious is a person. And if someone decides to put a bullet in that unconscious person’s head, that is murder and that person goes to jail.

 

[shannyk]

flyingfish…do you ever go back and read your own responses? I highly suggest you do. I have come to realize by doing that myself what a moron I can sound like and how completely wrong and offensive I can be. I’ve issued more than a few apologies to other posters too after going back and re-reading. I think you need to read your posts…because frankly I’m beginning to worry about you. I truly fear for your emotional and spiritual health. Many prayers my friend and please seek some solid spiritual guidance.

 

[magic_stick]

Yes, it would. Even the law, psychology, and most pro-choicers would disagree with you.

It takes a sick person, a very sick person, to think of killing a human baby. Yes, it is a person, yes, it does have consciousness. Yes, babies do have temperament and personality, psychology backs this up. Yes, they can feel. They may not understand what’s happening, but they can start to process.

Otherwise, why do they smile at you, even at barely a few months? Why do they laugh? Why do they cry if their parents put them down and stop when their parents pick them back up? Why do they have likes and dislikes (they can start even when they’re being nursed and their mom eats something gassy, spicy, or w/e)? Why do they cry when they need a diaper change? They know it doesn’t feel RIGHT!

Not to mention that there is a recognized innocence and vulnerability with a human baby. Why else were people so horrified with Otty Sanchez and others? It’s SICK!

That makes no sense.

flyingfish, I think you would benefit from mental health counceling because your type of thinking is not considered normal or healthy. Anyone, prochoice or prolife would agree on this and I am afraid that at some point in life, your thought process might get you in trouble. If you truely believe what you are saying, there are some deep issues there. Just talking to someone face to face could benefit you greatly. I mean, you could very well be a nice person in real life but that doesn’t make your beliefs right in anyone’s eyes.

 

[flyingfish]

Doesn’t sound prolife to me. I know prolife people and I know prochoice and no one has these views. He is either severly misinformed or he is playing mind games with you. Think about it, you are on a prolife site right now and no one agreed with you. Plus, even main stream society agrees killing a 1 yr old is murder. People go to jail killing newborns… If your views were consistent, people wouldn’t go to jail. See what I am saying?

A person in an accident who is knocked unconscious is a person. And if someone decides to put a bullet in that unconscious person’s head, that is murder and that person goes to jail.

I didn’t say a person who kills a newborn shouldn’t go to jail, I said their crime shouldn’t be murder. Maybe something like theft? Because they are stealing from the parents of the newborn.

 

[flyingfish]

flyingfish, I think you would benefit from mental health counceling because your type of thinking is not considered normal or healthy. Anyone, prochoice or prolife would agree on this and I am afraid that at some point in life, your thought process might get you in trouble. If you truely believe what you are saying, there are some deep issues there. Just talking to someone face to face could benefit you greatly. I mean, you could very well be a nice person in real life but that doesn’t make your beliefs right in anyone’s eyes.

I’m curious, what illnesses do you think I have?

 

[kage_ar]

I didn’t say a person who kills a newborn shouldn’t go to jail, I said their crime shouldn’t be murder. Maybe something like theft? Because they are stealing from the parents of the newborn.

If you are yanking chains then it is time to grow up.

If you honestly feel this way, please see a mental health expert and a priest, you come across as someone who has sociopathic tendencies.

 

[Rascalking]

If you are yanking chains then it is time to grow up.

If you honestly feel this way, please see a mental health expert and a priest, you come across as someone who has sociopath tendencies.

Kage_ar,

If someone really, really felt that way, mental health experts and priests would throw up their hands and say !

Your absolutely correct about this. If anyone was really serious about this, than rational argument would be pointless.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I’m sorry, but a baby is not a commodity. If someone murders a newborn, they should be placed in jail for a long, long time. If someone murdered my child and was jailed for only theft, they better pray that changes…because if they got off, I’d personally make sure they could never murder another one again.

That’s just asking for a bloody society.

Flyingfish, now I’m worried about you. This is serious. Yeah, it may be just thoughts. But that’s how it starts.