Abortion due to gender.

[flyingfish]

Can you see how arbitrary this all is? WHO draws the line? WHO establishes the truth?

I always said I wasn’t an expert, and I don’t know to what extent the experts agree on when human beings become conscious. I would say that neuroscientists and psychologists would be the most appropriate group to draw this line.

That said, I don’t agree with a definition of consciousness that talks about responding to stimuli, because animals have this, and to a limited extent plants have this (they will grow toward sunlight, say).

 

[flyingfish]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6190581&postcount=50


Um, fish, you really need to get an appointment with a professional - this is not rational thought.

Oh come on. I said earlier in this thread that a brain capable of generating a mind can be seen as a person. But I’ll tell you that I’ve been treated by a professional for an anxiety disorder and took medication for it, and I did tell him my views about dying about when I fall asleep, solipsism, and the like. Sorry to disappoint, but I wasn’t diagnosed as a “psychopath.”

I actually talked to a few people about it, and these views are not uncommon, quite a few people I know have have considered these views. Many philosophers have talked about all sorts of “unusual” beliefs. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but more people than you think share my views. And guess what, we’re not walking around killing babies.

 

[sanctareparata]

That said, I don’t agree with a definition of consciousness that talks about responding to stimuli, because animals have this, and to a limited extent plants have this (they will grow toward sunlight, say).

You didn’t read the research, then. The consciousness they measured was not in response to stimuli.

For example, a baby can recognize its own mother’s voice.
A baby can recognize his or her own cry from the cries of others.
A baby knows the difference between the touch from another and the touch of himself (and because he recognizes his own touch, he can self-soothe).

All of these, in correlation with measuring their brain waves, synapses, etc showed them that the newborn is indeed minimally conscious - the first step toward complete consciousness that happens in adulthood.

 

[flyingfish]

You didn’t read the research, then. The consciousness they measured was not in response to stimuli.

For example, a baby can recognize its own mother’s voice.
A baby can recognize his or her own cry from the cries of others.
A baby knows the difference between the touch from another and the touch of himself (and because he recognizes his own touch, he can self-soothe).

All of these, in correlation with measuring their brain waves, synapses, etc showed them that the newborn is indeed minimally conscious - the first step toward complete consciousness that happens in adulthood.

But a dog can recognize the voice of its owner, can’t it? Why don’t we call people who kill dogs murderers?

 

[Paints]

Oh come on. I said earlier in this thread that a brain capable of generating a mind can be seen as a person. But I’ll tell you that I’ve been treated by a professional for an anxiety disorder and took medication for it, and I did tell him my views about dying about when I fall asleep, solipsism, and the like. Sorry to disappoint, but I wasn’t diagnosed as a “psychopath.”

Did you tell him that you think killing babies is not murder or did you leave that out? Because that is a characteristic of a psychopath. I am curious to know if you actually told him that you believe killing babies is not murder.

I actually talked to a few people about it, and these views are not uncommon, quite a few people I know have have considered these views. Many philosophers have talked about all sorts of “unusual” beliefs. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but more people than you think share my views. And guess what, we’re not walking around killing babies.

When I saw this thread, I posted what you said on a forum I frequently visit. Not one single person agreed with you and all there said you were crazy. If it’your belief is so common, why didn’t anyone agree with you? Being that it is an anonymous board. And no one agreed with you on this site either. Doesn’t that tell you something?

By the way, I have been a member here since September. I never posted until now because this is the most craziest thing I have ever read. killing a baby isn’t murder? shakes head

 

[sanctareparata]

But a dog can recognize the voice of its owner, can’t it? Why don’t we call people who kill dogs murderers?

How can you possibly think it’s that simple?

You said newborns weren’t persons.
You said persons *had *to have consciousness.
You said you didn’t know *when *consciousness occurred.
I gave you science that showed newborns had consciousness.

Don’t spin this back around bringing up animals again. Animals are not human beings.

 

[pamnbam]

I’m going to get a lot of negative responses for this, but if I ever decide to have children and find out I’m pregnant with a boy I will abort and try again. Ideally I would control for this beforehand with sex selection services, but abortion would be a last resort option.

I don’t think I could love or raise a male child.

I don’t think there’s necessarily anything wrong with little boys, I just don’t see myself ever being able to want to take the time to raise one. It would almost feel like a waste of my time. I don’t think I could be a good mother to a boy, simply because I wouldn’t want to spend any time with him, wouldn’t want to teach him, or do anything for him at all.

I can’t really explain why I feel this way, I definitely like men (the grown and attractive ones).

Worried for myself, if I can avoid that kind of a procedure, I would.

I don’t know how they do sex selection, but if IVF is how it’s done then yeah. I have no issues with IVF.

There are a lot of “I’s” and “my’s” in here. Part of becoming a mother, or a parent for that matter, is putting aside your own wants so you can support a child. There are sadly many immature parents in the world who believe that they can put their children on the back burner.

“If any man desires to be first, the same shall be the last of all and the servant of all.”–Mark 9:35

A single cell without a mind is a person?

Yes! The smallest unit of life is the cell, it’s the most basic unit of life. This is the way God created it. Although the same cell argument could be said for bacteria, single-celled protists, multicellular fungi, plants and even other animals, we are HUMAN!! This is what sets us apart. We must preserve human dignity!

 

[CatholicSam]

PS - As for being self aware, I would definitely consider my 10 month old as self aware. He says “Dada” now, gets a “Yay!” and applause from the rest of us, and then he giggles and claps. Then when we all laugh again, he gets embarrassed and hides his face.

You can’t be shy or embarrassed if you don’t even know you exist.

 

[Paints]

flyingfish, can you please tell us how old you are?

 

[flyingfish]

Did you tell him that you think killing babies is not murder or did you leave that out? Because that is a characteristic of a psychopath. I am curious to know if you actually told him that you believe killing babies is not murder.

When I saw this thread, I posted what you said on a forum I frequently visit. Not one single person agreed with you and all there said you were crazy. If it’your belief is so common, why didn’t anyone agree with you? Being that it is an anonymous board. And no one agreed with you on this site either. Doesn’t that tell you something?

By the way, I have been a member here since September. I never posted until now because this is the most craziest thing I have ever read. killing a baby isn’t murder? shakes head

In any conversation that I have with anyone about abortion, I say that humans become persons when they become conscious, regardless of whether its in or out of the womb.

Pro choice people generally agree with me but not all will agree about when there is consciousness, some will say third trimester fetuses have consciousness, pro life people will generally say that we become people at conception because that’s when we get our souls.

The idea of using consciousness to define personhood is very common among atheists and agnostics who don’t believe in souls.

I also have a feeling you misrepresented my views. I never said killing babies was okay, I just said that murder should be defined as the unjustified killing of a person. Killing a baby should still be a very severe crime, even if not called murder.

 

[Paints]

I also have a feeling you misrepresented my views. I never said killing babies was okay, I just said that murder should be defined as the unjustified killing of a person. Killing a baby should still be a very severe crime, even if not called murder.

You really can’t interpet this wrong.

1 year olds aren’t yet aware of their existence, and their minds are not at the level where I would consider them people and worry about them being killed any more than I worry about animals being killed.

 

[Paints]

In any conversation that I have with anyone about abortion, I say that humans become persons when they become conscious, regardless of whether its in or out of the womb.

Pro choice people generally agree with me but not all will agree about when there is consciousness, some will say third trimester fetuses have consciousness, pro life people will generally say that we become people at conception because that’s when we get our souls.

Did you actually tell these people that you believe killing a 1 year old is not murder? Because I doubt very much that these people you speak of would agree with you.

 

[flyingfish]

You really can’t interpet this wrong.

Great job at taking one statement out of context without reading everything else I said about how damaging the killing of a baby is to its parents. I don’t see the point of discussing these things with you, since you apparently already decided what I think.

Just so you know, I think killing any living thing is a bad thing, even ripping plants out of the ground. But I think the word murder should be reserved for killing living things that have conscious minds. But otherwise, I’m done talking about this. It’s really no use to discuss views with people who willingly misunderstand what I said just for the sake of calling me a homicidal maniac.

 

[sanctamaria17]

This reminds me of an episode of Friends where Joey said, “If Homo sapiens were Homo sapiens, would they exist?”

Ross replied, “Joey, Homo sapiens are PEOPLE!”

Joey replied, “Hey, I don’t judge!”

Flyingfish, Sanctareparata has given you AMPLE evidence proving that babies were people, based on your definition. If you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.

I’ve already told you that scientifically, personhood was defined by the genus and species we belong to.

Finally, if you are Catholic, this is a HUGE tenet of Catholicism. It always has been. The Didache states this, the Church Fathers state this…any other theological speculations were had because they lacked scientific knowledge.

Regardless of Madoff, murder is still seen as a worse sin than theft by our society. By changing the definition of killing a newborn from murder to theft, you are lessening the value of a child in the eyes of society, reducing them to a mere commodity. Regardless of whether or not you are personally nice to babies or whether or not there should be severe punishment for killing them, THAT is what so many of us are objecting to.

 

[flyingfish]

Flyingfish, Sanctareparata has given you AMPLE evidence proving that babies were people, based on your definition. If you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.

I didn’t say I didn’t believe it, I said I wasn’t sure. I admitted many times that I didn’t know the science very well.

Honestly, I would go with whatever the experts in this area think. If they think newborns are conscious, then I’ll take them at their word because I simply don’t have of knowledge about the human brain to make that kind of judgment.

I said many times that I might well be wrong about the numbers. And if humans become conscious in the womb, then I would even say abortion is wrong except when it threatens the mother’s health or life.

I’ve already told you that scientifically, personhood was defined by the genus and species we belong to.

This I don’t agree with. “Person” is a philosophical rather than a scientific concept.

Some scientists think that dolphins should be treated as non-human persons.

 

[Paints]

Great job at taking one statement out of context without reading everything else I said about how damaging the killing of a baby is to its parents. I don’t see the point of discussing these things with you, since you apparently already decided what I think.

Just so you know, I think killing any living thing is a bad thing, even ripping plants out of the ground. But I think the word murder should be reserved for killing living things that have conscious minds. But otherwise, I’m done talking about this. It’s really no use to discuss views with people who willingly misunderstand what I said just for the sake of calling me a homicidal maniac.

I have read every single post and you proved to me and to everyone else on this thread that you do have mental issues. I am not the only one that said it, doesn’t that tell you something? But you are the only one that doesn’t believe it. There is no misunderstanding this:

I didn’t say a person who kills a newborn shouldn’t go to jail, I said their crime shouldn’t be murder. Maybe something like theft? Because they are stealing from the parents of the newborn

You’re reading right, I don’t think humans become people until consciousness develops. 1 year olds aren’t yet aware of their existence, and their minds are not at the level where I would consider them people and worry about them being killed any more than I worry about animals being killed.

My thinking is that consciousness makes a living thing a person, without it, it’s not a person and I don’t worry about killing it. 7 year olds have consciousness, the unborn and newborns for example do not. Still, if you kill someone else’s newborn without their consent, you are destroying a baby they spent 9 months producing, may have spent even more time and money trying to conceive. It is a serious offense against them to destroy the newborn

I think to a point a child’s “value” does increase with age. I wouldn’t feel too sad for example if a young child died, because that child doesn’t really have a mind yet, doesn’t really understand life, dream of the future and so on.

 

[Paints]

I think sleep and coma are interesting considerations.

Personally I am not sure if I continue to exist when I fall asleep. Most of the time I think that “I” die every time I fall asleep, and that a new “me” is generated by my brain when I wake up.
.

No misunderstanding this either. This is not thinking of a normal human being.

 

[ac_claire]

A forum that I visit posted a link to another forum where people want a specific gender. Maybe they desire a girl instead of a boy or a boy instead of a girl. That’s what the entire website is about.

So, I was curious and I went to that website. The first thread that really caught my attention is of a woman who has all boys, but is thinking of getting a cvs done with the next pregnancy (she is currently 37 weeks pregnant but plans another pregnancy) to see if the next one is a boy, if so, abort. I tried to reply but my reply wasn’t welcomed and I can’t post anymore there. I am a bit upset so I guess that’s why I am coming to you guys.

I don’t know if I am allowed to post a link to the thread and website, but if anyone wants it, pm me and I will send it to you. I don’t want anyone to think I am making this up. It’s just mind blowing.

I am going to copy and paste her post, and even so that this person obviously has some mental issues, some of the replies really made me shake my head in disgust.

---

Here is her post (By the way, GD stands for Gender Disappointment):

This post is on a highly sensitive subject please do not read if likely to upset .Contents on subject area which will probably upset many people…
Firstly I have no real excuse for my GD I dont dislike men or little boys I have a truly fantastic 2 year old boy I have a wonderful husband had a lovely Dad my brother is a intelligent and great man (well as good a little brother as you can expect really they are all pains) and my best friend as a child was a boy (shock horror boys are great fun!). But I want a DD so much it hurts I have great relationship with my mum and I so want that with my own daughter plus so many things I want to teach a DD and pass on to her. I also never expected to be able to have children due to having chemotherapy as a child but always thought if I could I would want a DD. But I am lucky in that I have been able to have children and also shockingly developed GD thus now a horrible person. I am struggling with what can only be described as extreem GD I am now 37 weeks with my second DS. I have got over my initial reaction to finding out it was a DS we were told girl at an early scan then boy at the next scan which has been very traumatic. I am now in a sort of excepting state of mind. Nobody knows the gender of this baby and I have been doing the fake smile as long as its healthy bit for months now (massive lie I WANT A GIRL and am deeply depressed about situation). Anyway the only thing that is keeping me going is the idea that I can have a girl next time but it must be a girl I can never ever go though this mental nightmare again. We can not afford high tech or to keep having children. So thinking (this is where it gets nasty and yes I am ashamed of myself) early CVS test for gender then only carry on with pregnancy if DD. OK very morally wrong but what I am asking is how early can this be done and has anyone on here done this. I sort of justify the idea as not being so different from selecting the gender in high tech. DH is 100% behind this idea having seen the cost of high tech and the state of my mental health since being told about DS2 Even the idea makes me feel sick but I see no other option now swaying has failed for me already although will do again as would rather not go down this route. Any advice welcome but no lectures on morals please as I am aware this is not acceptable to most people even myself a few years ago but things change and I dont have a massive house and spare funds that are needed for the more acceptable ways of getting a balanced family i.e keep trying or go OS for IVF PGD etc. Feel free to private message me if you would rather not post in public I hope this has not caused too much upset to anyone I am truly sorry if so just view it as the words of a mad women​

I don’t know what I am asking but I needed someone to vent to because it’s so disgusting, I am beside myself.

Magic_stick, this is such a coincidence. I actually stumbled across this forum (in-gender)a few days ago and I was also disgusted by this same thread. I either didn’t make it to your reply (quit reading halfway through them) or yours was deleted. What disgusted me actually more than the OP was the pages and pages of replies that were all saying the same thing: “well it’s your choice, and I won’t judge…”

I’m glad you had the guts to reply as you did, even if you got banned for it. That forum is a sick, sick place.

 

[tabsie3210]

I don’t think there’s necessarily anything wrong with little boys, I just don’t see myself ever being able to want to take the time to raise one. It would almost feel like a waste of my time. I don’t think I could be a good mother to a boy, simply because I wouldn’t want to spend any time with him, wouldn’t want to teach him, or do anything for him at all.

I can’t really explain why I feel this way, I definitely like men (the grown and attractive ones).

This was the last post that I stopped at because I felt the need to comment. If I’m saying something that someone else stated, then please forgive me - I haven’t gotten beyond this.

FlyingFish:

You are trolling. Normally I see you engaging in thoughtful, intelligent debate, even though I usually don’t agree with you. This, however, comes off as trolling - the respondents prior were generally Catholics, who were responding to the complaint of another Catholic, who was expressing fears and regrets due to the comment she posted in her original post.

However, you started off saying that you were expecting the flames and arrows and have derailed the conversation. I don’t know if the conversation got back on track or not, as I said, having not gotten beyond this post, but I felt the need to point out to my fellow Catholics that you have successfully diverted the conversation. Perhaps this was a response we should have ignored en mass.

I’ll be praying for you.

 

[RobnBobA1]

Terry Schiavo was not taken off life support. She was not on life support. She needed to eat with a tube. They stoppped feeding her, and it took 2 weeks for her to die.

The son I am holding was born at 29 weeks, and was on “life support” A ventilator, feeding tubes, an isolette. As his parents, we were not required to consent to these treatments. If we decided to “cut life support”, the hospital would have gotten a restraining order against us.

It is different between a minor and an adult for the issue of life support. Should an adult make it known to her family or power of attorney that she did not want life saving efforts, should she come incapacitated, another adult responsible for her medical decisions can make that determination if no living will is presented. The arguement was that she had told her husband before the incident that she didn’t want to spend her life on tubes. After 10 years in that condition, he made that decision as her medical proxy, whereas the parents were trying to sue for custody that they no longer had once she got married. Since an infant cannot make that type of wish known before hand until that child is legally an adult and has the mental capacity to understand a choice of that magnitude, the parents cannot simply cut the cord unless said child was brain dead, thus medically dead and the life support was simply keeping the body alive. Since your infant was medically and legally alive and just needed assistance to remain living until its body was capable of sustaining itself off life support, you would not have been able to make that decisions for said infant although you could have made other medical decisions.