Abortion due to gender.

[RobnBobA1]

I went to hear Robert George of Princeton University speak about pro-life philosophy. One of the things that impressed me about him and his reasoning was this statement:
"The life issues argument is not a discussion between good and bad people. It is a discusson between good people with different views.

If I could just be one of the good people.

EXACTLY…I try to impress upon those individuals that prochoice people are not vicious murderers in favor of forcing abortions on every pregnant woman, that doctors are not just in it for the money and the fun of teargin apart human beings for no reason. That we honestly do believe that simply a woman has a legal right to choose any of her options without other people interfering in that medical decision that she makes with her family, and her doctor, regardless of said choice. That we can be amazing mothers without being hypocrites because we believe in legal rights to choose. My mother is one such amazing woman as is my sister, both excellent parents of beautiful children (me included )

 

[jilly4ski]

This I don’t agree with. “Person” is a philosophical rather than a scientific concept.

.

Your premise is illogical, consciousness not something we can measure. Sancta gave you evidence why children of all ages, in the womb or not, are “conscious.” Then you turned it around and said animals were conscious, because they show some of the same behaviors. The natural conclusion is that consciousness is not the test for Human personhood.

If we cannot test/or measure for consciousness then we cannot use it to determine when it is OK to kill a member of the human species. It is not a valid test for personhood, because in the real world it cannot be used.

 

[tapiocapudding]

the fundamental problem I see with your argument flying fish is that you premise that personhood is dependant on the ‘capability for consciousness’. You say that sleeping people for example are still persons because they are capable of self awareness when they awaken. Well, babies and fetuses have the capability for consciousness. In a few short years they will be self aware beings.
Besides, even if my toddler is not self aware in the traditional sense he is certainly thinking and problem solving all the time. He definitely recognizes himself in the mirror.

 

[mark_a]

That we honestly do believe that simply a woman has a legal right to choose any of her options without other people interfering in that medical decision that she makes with her family, and her doctor, regardless of said choice.

I have no doubt that you are a good person.

Does the father have any “options” if he disagrees with his wife? Can he legally force an abortion or vice versa?

 

[kage_ar]

EXACTLY…I try to impress upon those individuals that prochoice people are not vicious murderers in favor of forcing abortions on every pregnant woman, that doctors are not just in it for the money and the fun of teargin apart human beings for no reason. That we honestly do believe that simply a woman has a legal right to choose any of her options without other people interfering in that medical decision that she makes with her family, and her doctor, regardless of said choice. That we can be amazing mothers without being hypocrites because we believe in legal rights to choose. My mother is one such amazing woman as is my sister, both excellent parents of beautiful children (me included )

Yet, some do think this way. I have met doctors who are in it for the money and who hate women. I have met rabid pro choicers who feel that abortions should be forced on women.

 

[momof8]

I pray for flyingfish. My prayer is that she is NEVER left alone in a room with a child under the age of 2 or 3…

The prolifer who said you are consistent is right, flyingfish. If I can kill a human being at ANY time, and our society has decided that I can kill my own child up to its birth (our president would say I could also leave my child to die after its birth, if my intention had been for it to die anyhow), then who has the right to set ANY limit on when another person can be killed? Either we have rights as human beings, which biologically all conceived children are, or we don’t. Just because my standards are different than flyingfish’s standards would not mean that mine were any better, and we will eventually be left with the lowest possible standards as being the minimum that we would all live with. How hellish those standards would be. Flyingfish has the sorry standard of “whatever the parents want”. If it would make the parent feel bad (I think flyingfish has deadened feelings herself toward innocent children, so their death does not affect her emotionally), then it is wrong, merely as an act of theft. Good grief, a parent whose child dies feels that something has been stolen from them, certainly, but not the way they’d feel if their car had been stolen.

Dear flyingfish, Our Lord said that if a man looks at another woman with lust in his heart, he has already committed adultery. By that standard, if you have already decided to kill your baby if you find out it is male, then you have already guilty of murder in your own heart. Just reading your words, it is obvious that the things that you say are consistent with a person whose soul is quite dead. What a sad way to live. I do pray that your soul is reborn in the Lord, even if at this point you don’t care at all about that. Either you have been heavily influenced by a world that no longer values human life, or you have been so harmed in some way that you really don’t care about yourself any more than you care about innocent unborn, or even born, babies.

I have a rosary novena that gives this mediation for The Agony in the Garden, when Our Lord saw the sins of the world, presented to His mind by Satan, “who sought to dissuade Him from the sacrifice He was about to make.” I know He saw all of my sins, and it breaks my heart, but He saw words like those of flyingfish’s words as well. It is beyond belief that He saw all the evil we would commit, in our hearts and with our own hands, and still died for us. What unfathomable love that must have taken!

May you find yourself coming back to life, Flyingfish, ready to be reborn with Christ this Easter!

 

[momof8]

EXACTLY…I try to impress upon those individuals that prochoice people are not vicious murderers in favor of forcing abortions on every pregnant woman, that doctors are not just in it for the money and the fun of teargin apart human beings for no reason. That we honestly do believe that simply a woman has a legal right to choose any of her options without other people interfering in that medical decision that she makes with her family, and her doctor, regardless of said choice. That we can be amazing mothers without being hypocrites because we believe in legal rights to choose. My mother is one such amazing woman as is my sister, both excellent parents of beautiful children (me included )

Choice A, let your child live.

Choice B: ?

 

[momof8]

Originally Posted by flyingfish

"This I don’t agree with. “Person” is a philosophical rather than a scientific concept. "

Actually, personhood is a legal concept. If our law regards you as a person (for instance, one year old boys, or Procter and Gamble), you have the rights that our law affords to persons. Unborn babies are not considered persons by our laws, so their lives can be taken without the protection of such legal concepts as due process. Slaves were not considered persons either, therefor there would be no legal sanctions against those who would treat them in whatever way they would treat other pieces of property. As far as legal rights for the unborn, it doesn’t matter what scientists, or theologians, or anyone else says. Unless they are recognized as persons, our law will not recognize them as having rights.

Fortunately for children under the age of one, our current law disagrees with flyingfish’s standards of personhood. Unfortunately for unborn babies, our current law agrees with RobnBobA1.

 

[RobnBobA1]

I have no doubt that you are a good person.

Does the father have any “options” if he disagrees with his wife? Can he legally force an abortion or vice versa?

An answer to that question troubles me personally since I tend to look at this topic as objectively as possible, devoid of my personal opinion or what I would do in a personal situation. Because of this I can sometimes tend to come across as unemotional or without heart. I feel that politically a man should not have any legal ability to chose either medical option for his wife or partner in this case (baring that he is the medical proxy and she is unable to make a decision in the matter such as a pregnant woman in a coma) So I will attempt to answer in two distinctively matters a political and a personal belief on a womans moral choice.

Politically I already stated that I am against him having a legal say, since should he have a legal say he will essentially be able to decide another person’s medical choice about her body that no other person is allowed to do (other than medical proxy as stated above) A wife cannot have any legal say in whether or not a man can get a vascectomy, nor does she even have to be informed about it. It is a little different, but my argument for the case of legal abortion stems on a persons ultimate right to decide who may and may not use their body for whatever reason to include a fetus using the body of the woman to gain or sustain its life. Before others jump on me for this conversation I want to reiterate that I do not want to turn this discussion board into a debate on the legalities of abortion. I actually would like to return the topic back to the OP.

Personally I feel however that any woman within this situation has a moral duty to at least have a discussion with her partner to jointly decide together, baring abusive relationship…the reason why I add that last part in is because studies have routinely and consistently shown that violence in a DVR almost always increase when a woman becomes pregnant, since this makes her even more vulnerable and the abuser is after both emotioanl and physical exertion of his control. That being said, in any relationship do I think that a man should have an opinion, absolutely. He is part of the process and his opinion may be a deciding factor in her decision. This can unfortuntely go in both ways, but I try to combat a woman making that decision to abort because of her partners wishes, by explaining to her the vast importance that the decision truly be hers and that there are assistance options for single mothers that can help in her situation should the male partner be pressuring her to abort.

I hope that I answered your questions but feel free to respond if something was not fully explained.

 

[RobnBobA1]

Yet, some do think this way. I have met doctors who are in it for the money and who hate women. I have met rabid pro choicers who feel that abortions should be forced on women.

I personally will apologize for those very fringe individuals and their impressions upon you and want to express that this is by far from the norm, but is indeed the abnormal, the same way that some prolife individuals who are on the fringe feel that it is acceptable to kill or harm doctors or bomb whole clinics to achieve their goal of no killing (oxymoron anyone) In my walk through the prochoice side so many people truly do care about the women, as I am sure on the prolife side they do as well.

On the money issue however, when you compare abortions to childbirth, childbirth is always more expensive with average vaginal no complications birth costing roughly $10,000 to include prenatal care, while the most common abortion is before 12 weeks costing about $300 to $500. That is not to deny that certain individuals may put out the vibe that they are solely in it for the money, but my opinion is that the costs of doing this procedure far outweight any monetary benefits. They have to deal with almost daily death threats against themselves and their family, and their co-workers. to hiring security for the personelle and buildings, Not to mention the daily protests and name-calling by over-zealous prolifers (who truly may care but get frustrated and do not come off in loving manners) To include constant inspections and law suits from prolifers etc.

 

[mark_a]

I actually would like to return the topic back to the OP.
Ok then.

Personally I feel however that any woman within this situation has a moral duty to at least have a discussion with her partner to jointly decide together,

Would a lawful duty work for you?

I hope that I answered your questions but feel free to respond if something was not fully explained.

Seems like pretty standard pro-choice thinking to me.

Thanks.

 

[CatholicSam]

I personally will apologize for those very fringe individuals and their impressions upon you and want to express that this is by far from the norm, but is indeed the abnormal, the same way that some prolife individuals who are on the fringe feel that it is acceptable to kill or harm doctors or bomb whole clinics to achieve their goal of no killing (oxymoron anyone) In my walk through the prochoice side so many people truly do care about the women, as I am sure on the prolife side they do as well.

You’re obviously not familiar with the story of Steven Mosher of the Population Research Institute. He was working in China at the time that the infamous one child policy was put into action. He was pro-choice at the time, and after witnessing the forced abortions of women in his village, he came back to the USA to get help from fellow “pro-choicers.” He was sure that pro-choice organizations who rally for a woman’s right to choose would be up in arms about the way women were denied this right in China. Nope. He was invariably told “I’m against forced abortions… but China does have a population problem.” No outrage whatsoever. I wonder how many pro-choicers really and truly are against *all *forced abortions? My guess is that there are far more than whackos who blow up abortion clinics.

On the money issue however, when you compare abortions to childbirth, childbirth is always more expensive with average vaginal no complications birth costing roughly $10,000 to include prenatal care, while the most common abortion is before 12 weeks costing about $300 to $500. That is not to deny that certain individuals may put out the vibe that they are solely in it for the money, but my opinion is that the costs of doing this procedure far outweight any monetary benefits. They have to deal with almost daily death threats against themselves and their family, and their co-workers. to hiring security for the personelle and buildings, Not to mention the daily protests and name-calling by over-zealous prolifers (who truly may care but get frustrated and do not come off in loving manners) To include constant inspections and law suits from prolifers etc.

Please will you provide proof of over-zealous prolifers doing the name-calling at their protests. I’ve seen countless videos and articles where it’s actually the pro-choicers (and so-called abortion clinic security) calling names, spitting on the people silently praying in front of the abortuaries.

As for the money, babies who are wanted get prenatal and birth care, while babies who are not wanted get destroyed through abortion. The malpractice insurance for doctors who *care *for babies rather than destroy them is ridiculously expensive. The non-abortion OB docs will also see a patient numerous times during the course of a pregnancy, run all kinds of tests to make sure mom and baby are OK, which also cost lots of money, and these docs spend time traveling to and from the hospital and office to deliver babies and check on the mothers. On the other hand, abortion providers see the patient for usually one visit, followup is rare (and even if the doc provides follow up, that’s just one more 5-minute office visit and no doubt more $$$ paid by the customer), no hospital visits and travel time. It’s pay your $400, have the abortion done, and get out. When litigation is brought against abortion providers, unfortunately many people don’t want to “go there” because any kind of nay-saying against an unsafe abortion doctor is viewed as an attack on women’s rights. Malpractice insurance costs for abortion providers are nowhere near the exuberant costs for doctors who care for and deliver **live **babies, because abortionists are not responsible for the health of the child as well as the mother, as OB doctors are. Your assertion that abortionists would be life-affirming OBs if they were only in it for the money doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Abortionists *do *make quicker and easier bucks than OBs.

 

[RobnBobA1]

Would a lawful duty work for you?

Seems like pretty standard pro-choice thinking to me.

Thanks.

Lawful duty in what fashion? How would you impliment a lawful duty for a discussion and a mental decision? Would the lawful duty include a lawful decision making when the parties conflict in the choice made?

 

[kimmielittle]

Abort now, for convenience
Euthanize now, for convenience
Eugenics now, for convenience

The Marie Stoples International, Peter Singer, IPPF, UNPPF, 's of the world all seem to have one “common” between them - “convenience at any cost”

As always, just my thoughts

 

[RobnBobA1]

You’re obviously not familiar with the story of Steven Mosher of the Population Research Institute. He was working in China at the time that the infamous one child policy was put into action. He was pro-choice at the time, and after witnessing the forced abortions of women in his village, he came back to the USA to get help from fellow “pro-choicers.” He was sure that pro-choice organizations who rally for a woman’s right to choose would be up in arms about the way women were denied this right in China. Nope. He was invariably told “I’m against forced abortions… but China does have a population problem.” No outrage whatsoever. I wonder how many pro-choicers really and truly are against *all *forced abortions? My guess is that there are far more than whackos who blow up abortion clinics.

Please will you provide proof of over-zealous prolifers doing the name-calling at their protests. I’ve seen countless videos and articles where it’s actually the pro-choicers (and so-called abortion clinic security) calling names, spitting on the people silently praying in front of the abortuaries.

.

Well this is one prochoicer that is outraged at forced choices made for another woman. The difference that I can say about political prochoicers and political prolifers however can, in my mind, kae up the reason on why this was the interpretation of peoples actions. Most political prochoicers simply fight for the legal rights and infringments against choice, to dealwith all choices to include abortion, childbirth and adoption. One reason why it seems that prochoicers are only about abortions rights is because that is the one choice that in America is so threatened. Lately one of my “crusades” if you will, is infringment on a womans right to choose to give birth, where women are thrown into prison for having natural miscarraiges, getting beat up while pregnant, doing legal drugs or drinking alcohol (that I am morally against women doing but legally against laws punishing women for legal activities that may cause harm to the fetus), where force-csections are done, to the point where some women have been tied down kciking and screaming as they are being rolled into the surgical room, where women are being charged with manslaughter because they did not follow doctors orders for bed rest for 4 months…this is an outrage that not only should prochoicers get involved (and unfortunetly they seem to be the only ones doing so) but prolfiers should as well since punishing women that choose to give birth will have the consequence of forcing women to choose abortion which is currently legal and no legal consequences.

Another reasoning is that we are simply trying to protect the legal procedure rather than getting into the personal decision that a woman makes with her doctor, while political prolifers are trying to get involved in the personal choices an individual makes. Its the mindset that I have, that I do not have any stake in what happens during my neighbors pregnancy or her decisions therefor I stay out of the decision making process other than the legal front where I support all her options to be available to her, whereas a political prolifer woudl get involved in their neighbors pregnancy related decision if she was leaning towards abortion.

Forced abortion to me is as much an affront as forced gestastion. I can also understand those select prochoicers that understand that there IS a population problem in China. The one-child policy is how the government tried to fix it which was the wrong way to go about the issue that should be changed because of the unforseen consequences, such as infanticide for female children (or additional children) or coerced/forced abortions deling with sex-selection.

Most of my experiences are personal, where I have walked into PP or an affiliate with PP, to either get birth control prescriptions, gyno exams, referrals for adoption or assistance programs, free STD and pregnancy screening, marriage counseling, or other related health questions (not dealing with abortion) and have been spat at, one time punched in the back, kicked at, called a murderer multiple times or a baby killer or even molestor, stalked at my personal home because they got my license plate number and followed me to my residence, some prolfiers recognized me (small town) and came to my work to harrass and protest where I worked although they had no idea why I entered into the clinic, had no idea about my history with abortion or whether I have personally had one (the answer is no). And have you only seen those videos on prolife sites? That may have something to do with it. Both sides are guilty of propoganda and only showing what makes one side look good. I suggest looking at some prochoice online sites to see the hate speech that is constantly spouted there. I could provide messages and letters from my own inbox as evidence for these actions and the multiple death threats that I get from individuals. and I am not even a doctor or a nurse that provides this service, nor do I work in any clinic that does (I have visited some PP and PP affiliates but none of the ones that I have provide abortions)

'As for the money, babies who are wanted get prenatal"

Did you know that you can be charged with child abuse, neglect and manslaughter (if you have a miscarraige) and you never had prenatal care or could not afford prenatal care?

 

[mark_a]

Lawful duty in what fashion? How would you impliment a lawful duty for a discussion and a mental decision?

Something like the requirement some states have for women to see an ultrasound of her baby before aborting.

An enforcement nightmare? You betcha! But laws can be used to encourage good instead of preventing evil.

 

[RobnBobA1]

Something like the requirement some states have for women to see an ultrasound of her baby before aborting.

An enforcement nightmare? You betcha! But laws can be used to encourage good instead of preventing evil.

How does that coorelate with a man having some sort of say in the legal choice? I’m confused at what you were originally asking when you meant lawful duty. Can you explain a little more what you were talking or thinking about pertaining to lawful duty when it comes to the father having a say in medical choice? Or were you asking a different question about other laws?

 

[CatholicSam]

Well this is one prochoicer that is outraged at forced choices made for another woman.

I am glad to hear this.

Lately one of my “crusades” if you will, is infringment on a womans right to choose to give birth, where women are thrown into prison for having natural miscarraiges, getting beat up while pregnant, doing legal drugs or drinking alcohol (that I am morally against women doing but legally against laws punishing women for legal activities that may cause harm to the fetus), where force-csections are done, to the point where some women have been tied down kciking and screaming as they are being rolled into the surgical room, where women are being charged with manslaughter because they did not follow doctors orders for bed rest for 4 months…

It seems to me that you really are pro-choice, unlike many who are really pro-abortion. The forced c-sections and laws against homebirth, etc. outrage me too. And being arrested for not obeying doc’s bedrest orders? Where’s the patient’s right to refuse medical care and/or opinion? But in all this freedom of choice, where is the *baby’s *choice?

Its the mindset that I have, that I do not have any stake in what happens during my neighbors pregnancy or her decisions therefor I stay out of the decision making process other than the legal front where I support all her options to be available to her, whereas a political prolifer woudl get involved in their neighbors pregnancy related decision if she was leaning towards abortion.

Your neighbor may be pregnant with your future daughter-in-law and mother of your grandchildren. Or that baby may grow up to be the nurse who cares for you in your old age. Or he or she may grow up to be a bad apple. We don’t know. But we all do have a stake in the murders of these children. They are our future, whether their parents feel like pregnancy and child-rearing or not.

Another reason pro-lifers get involved is because many of them have suffered the pain and subsequent regret of abortion and don’t want to see someone else go through that.

Forced abortion to me is as much an affront as forced gestastion. I can also understand those select prochoicers that understand that there IS a population problem in China. The one-child policy is how the government tried to fix it which was the wrong way to go about the issue that should be changed because of the unforseen consequences, such as infanticide for female children (or additional children) or coerced/forced abortions deling with sex-selection.

China doesn’t have a population problem. It has a Communism problem. If there isn’t anything wrong with a chosen abortion, what is wrong with sex-selection or infanticide (in families who want their one legal child to be a boy)? What happens during the trip through the birth canal to change things?

Most of my experiences are personal, where I have walked into PP or an affiliate with PP, to either get birth control prescriptions, gyno exams, referrals for adoption or assistance programs, free STD and pregnancy screening, marriage counseling, or other related health questions (not dealing with abortion) and have been spat at, one time punched in the back, kicked at, called a murderer multiple times or a baby killer or even molestor, stalked at my personal home because they got my license plate number and followed me to my residence

Did you press charges against this criminal behavior?

And have you only seen those videos on prolife sites?

Youtube. What comes to mind is coverage of the West Coast Walk for Life. I would be interested to see coverage of pro-lifers on the attack. I’m not saying all pro-lifers are the peaceful, prayerful type (obviously not, since “Dr.” Tiller was murdered several months ago–there are some very deranged people on both sides, as you’ve pointed out), but I do think most pro-lifers are more peaceful. When you gather outside an abortion mill praying the Rosary it’s not that easy to spew hateful remarks and physically harm people.

That may have something to do with it. Both sides are guilty of propoganda and only showing what makes one side look good. I suggest looking at some prochoice online sites to see the hate speech that is constantly spouted there. I could provide messages and letters from my own inbox as evidence for these actions and the multiple death threats that I get from individuals. and I am not even a doctor or a nurse that provides this service, nor do I work in any clinic that does (I have visited some PP and PP affiliates but none of the ones that I have provide abortions)

Have you reported any of this? If not, why?

'As for the money, babies who are wanted get prenatal"

Did you know that you can be charged with child abuse, neglect and manslaughter (if you have a miscarraige) and you never had prenatal care or could not afford prenatal care?

There really is no such thing as an unwanted baby. There is a long waiting list of couples wanting to adopt a baby with or without health issues.

I believe prenatal care should not be forced but encouraged. Not all moms who go without official prenatal care are being irresponsible, and all the prenatal care in the world can’t prevent every miscarriage. It is political and social schizophrenia that says a woman may choose to kill her unborn child but cannot choose to opt out of prenatal care of a “wanted” baby. Most miscarriages occur before 12 weeks gestation and it’s common for prenatal care not to be offered before this point (usually OBs start prenatal appointments somewhere between 8-12 weeks for low-risk moms).

 

[ac_claire]

…I try to impress upon those individuals that prochoice people are not vicious murderers in favor of forcing abortions on every pregnant woman, that doctors are not just in it for the money and the fun of teargin apart human beings for no reason. That we honestly do believe that simply a woman has a legal right to choose any of her options without other people interfering in that medical decision that she makes with her family, and her doctor, regardless of said choice. That we can be amazing mothers without being hypocrites because we believe in legal rights to choose. My mother is one such amazing woman as is my sister, both excellent parents of beautiful children (me included )

The only judgement I make about pro-choicers is that they are simply people who believe that the non-consensual killing of a living child is morally acceptable under certain circumstances.

 

[RobnBobA1]

I am glad to hear this.

It seems to me that you really are pro-choice,

Forgive me but I have not been able to figure out the whole quoting thing yet so I cannot break thing up…hope I cover most of the points this way.

I would disagree that “most” are pro-abortion. that leads to think that prochoicers are only for the option of abortion in all or most pregnancies. We are not. I would say that those that are “proabortion” are part of the fring group like those pro"lifers" that kill or attack others in the name of being against abortion.

“Where’s the patient’s right to refuse medical care and/or opinion?”

That is the problem that I have with some of these “personhood” laws, or laws later in pregnancy that are solely designed to protect the fetus (fullterm) at all cost…to include trumping the woman’s rights…when she is indeed choosing to give birth anyways. The case that started all of these (that I have found) was a woman named Angela Carder. She was a cancer survivor multiple time, got married and pregnant only to have the cancer return in a terminal form. All she asked was that she be kept alive as long as possible to give her baby a better chance at life. Her doctors parents and husband were in full support (she was 22 weeks I believe back in the 80s) when the admin of the hosptial (not her team of doctors) went to court and mandated a c-section. Both her and the infant died because they did not honor her medical decision that all her medical proxy agreed with. should she have been given extra time for the fetus to develop the husband may have been able to leave the hospital with at least his new child. With these new laws, they DO essentially trump a woman’s right to refuse medical care or treatment and violate her physical body, essentially assault her, all because, as one doctor claimed “she is holding the fetus hostage inside her body” that is horse sh*t.

A woman that is consenting to give birth is not maliciously trying to harm her baby. in the case of the woman being charged with manslaughter for a miscarraige when she ignored bed rest was told at 5 months gestation. thats another 4 months in bed at least. She told the doctor that she would do her best to relax, since this was a wanted pregnancy, but that she had 4 other children to contend to. How many mothers of four under the age of 10 have the ability to rest in bed all day long? the answer is they do not. They have other responsibilities that include the very needed care for her other living children.

“If there isn’t anything wrong with a chosen abortion, what is wrong with sex-selection or infanticide (in families who want their one legal child to be a boy)?”

Are we talking morally or legally? I try to separate the two when discussing abortion although it may be harder for others since for them it is so intertwined. Morally I think (personally) there is alot of things wrong with sex-selective abortion as with elective abortion in general. Legally however I will support the legal choice for abortion regardless of the reason. Did I kinda answer that question?

many people on the prolfie side say that location means nothing when dealing with pregnancy. In fact location means much in the legal world. I may shoot and kill a person for simply being inside my home without my invitation or permission to remain there. Outside I may not. As a member of the military I am legally obligated to kill any person, to include my commander, who is in unathorized areas regardless of their intention or reason. The reason indeed for them being there is irrelevant, simply there location. This occurs many times in legal actions. Without trying to get into the argument and I will indeed try to refrain from continuing with my explaination on abortions rights on this topic board in the future, my argument is simple. The fetus, as another “person” has no legal right to use the body of any other for any reason without that individuals specific, explicit and ongoing consent, as is the responsibility that every born human being must follow. Therefor the woman has the right to use the least amount of force in the now to remove the unwanted user of their body. I do not mean to make it sound like the fetus is maliciously trying to harm or violate the mother, so please do not take it that way. Before viability, unfortunetly the least amount of force necessary is lethal force, while after said point is c-section or induced labor. If anyone wants to further engage in this topic feel free to email me at jmason001@defiance.edu and I will try to respond. I have plenty of time seeing as I am on leave right now.

No I have not reported any nonviolent actions against myself, since I know that alot of times it is simply “hotair” or frustration being vented. Should I recieve death threats those are reported with the full law behind them and I encourage greatly others that have that happen to them.

I saw the walk for life, and indeed there was a small one in my tiny town on that day, that I watched for a few moments. I do not know off the top of my head if there are any videos that I can direct you to prolife protestors of the violent or hate-comment variety, although a quick facebook search of some prochoice groups will lead you to view the vicious comments left by some prolifers.

And I hope those individuals that have suffered emotional pain over abortion or adoption healing with their decision. I also however know a multitude of good moral individuals that have had abortions and do not regret their actions. Just for the flipside