Abortion due to gender.

[LittleSoldier]

I’ve been trying to research the procedure to see when and why a doctor would want to use it, and finding that it’s very had to find scientific sources on it since Google is flooded with non medical activist sites.

I don’t know why this procedure was invented, what the alternatives are for late term abortions, what is best for the mother’s well being so I can’t really comment.

I would think it would be the medical professionals dealing with specific pregnant women that would be most qualified to decide which procedure would be in the woman’s best interest.

I know it’s difficult to find info on PBA. I’ve been trying myself and haven’t had much luck. But I’ll keep on trying and maybe I can find a site which gives the info we need.

As far as I know, there is no medical or mental condition that can be used as a valid reason to justify PBA. I believe it is done for the simple reason that the child can be killed because she hasn’t been born. That’s all.

My son was born at 36 weeks and although his Apgar Rating was very low he survived. And he most definitely felt pain at that age. He didn’t breathe after the birth and started turning blue. The physician and others performed CPR on him, then the physician picked him up by the feet, holding him upside down, and whacked him (hard!) on the bottom of his feet with something that looked like a stick. The reason he did this was to force my son to breathe. If it hurt, my son would have to breathe in order to scream, and that’s exactly what happened. He inhaled and then let out a huge, loud wail. He turned a healthy pink color. It saved his life.

As for postpartum depression, I believe that it would occur whether or not the baby was delivered. Those hormone changes are still there at 36 weeks gestation. I’ll try to find some info on that, too.

Hope this helps a little.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think what bothers me most about this whole thread is the fact that Flyingfish seems so completely detached and unemotional about something that most of us are very passionate about: children. Not just in reference to abortion, but in general. It comes across as deeply unsettling and somehow unnatural.
As for me, I used to be pro-choice. Not very staunchly, because something deep down in my heart always knew that it was morally wrong, but society has us so convinced that life is all about what WE want, what WE feel we need, and that WE are the center of the universe, that admitting that I didn’t believe this is a choice you are allowed to make, usually led to a lot of grief from people around me. How could I deny another person’s rights, in this case the right to choose? Of course that “other person” was always the mother, and never the unborn child, who apparently did not need to have the same courtesy extended to them.
My hesitantly pro-choice attitude lasted until I got pregnant and that changed EVERYTHING. You can argue the definition of personhood until the cows come home, it is all about semantics, and the fact of the matter is actually very simple: life begins at conception. Science agrees on this. Ending life is killing. God’s commandment is “thou shalt not kill”. Therefore abortion is wrong. It is really not that complicated.

I think that a lot of women, especially those who are more accurately called girls, are duped into believing that “it’s” not really a child, it’s a clump of cells with “potential” for developing into a human being. Abortion is legal and why would it be legal if it were wrong? Also, staff at abortions clinics, including PP, are trained in how to talk the mother into having the abortion. What defense does a 14 year old girl have against a physician and other staff at an abortion clinic? The 14 year old is most likely confused and absolutely terrified.

I put much of the blame on so-called physicians who perform abortions because they can easily make a lot of money doing so. They don’t have to worry about the baby dying because that is the goal. They can be (and often are) sloppy and many times put the health of the mother at risk. Sometimes the mother dies. I have a book, which I’ll have to find (most of my books are packed in boxes) that gives statistics and some anecdotal evidence which shows that too much of the time abortion doctors are sloppy and uncaring, and don’t even care about the mother’s health. The author cites numerous cases in which the mother died due to ineptitude of the doctor. It’s really sad and it’s a shame that our “advanced” society puts such little value on human life.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

Also, staff at abortions clinics, including PP, are trained in how to talk the mother into having the abortion.

Makes you wonder whatever happened to that part of the Hippocratic oath that goes “first do no harm”.

I’m sure you’re right, a fourteen year old would most likely not have the courage to stand up to not just her mother, but the entire establishment, and doesn’t realize that yes, she has a choice. She has a right to say no to the abortion. In such a situation she probably feels like she has no choice, no say in the matter whatsoever.
The whole concept is just so unbelievably sad, and I can’t debate it properly. My oldest was essentially stillborn, she wasn’t breathing and didn’t have a pulse after 40 hours of labor, decelerating heart tones, and a forceps delivery in one quick yank. She started breathing on her own at the very moment they were going to intubate her, and I still believe that God gave her back to us, that it was a miracle that she started breathing. My heart is too invested in this subject to be able to properly debate.
I will stick with reading from now on, but I wanted to thank all the pro-life posters on this thread who are so much more adept than I am, especially Brother JR, Little Soldier, and Mary Gail. You have posted what I would have said if I had been able to find the words. Thank you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I would like to add that I find kimmielittle to be an excellent debater, especially for one so young. Her posts belie her age. She is always charitable (something I have a problem with), humble, willing to learn, and eager. I wouldn’t be surprised to find her on CAF as an apologist one day. I would never have guessed she is so young from reading her posts.

And I always enjoy reading her posts. Kimmie, I’ve learned much from you. And I want to thank you. I pray that you will hold onto your faith and your convictions. It is an honor to post with you.

God bless you!!

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[flyingfish]

I think what bothers me most about this whole thread is the fact that Flyingfish seems so completely detached and unemotional about something that most of us are very passionate about: children. Not just in reference to abortion, but in general. It comes across as deeply unsettling and somehow unnatural.

It’s interesting that you say this, because I was just thinking earlier today that I can’t for the life of me understand why people care so much about fetuses and embryos. It’s even to the point where people get very emotional and upset about using eggs fertilized in the lab for research/stem cells. Even if these are eggs that will otherwise be discarded or remain frozen indefinitely.

It’s true, I just don’t get it. There are so many more things in the world to care about. If the pro life cause is so important to you, why not fight for health care, why not fight for fairer wages for the poor, why not stand up for born victims of violence and other injustices?

I just can’t for the life of me get why people get so worked up about embryos/fetuses that don’t even have the primitive minds to be aware of themselves. They don’t know they’re alive, they don’t know they’re being killed, they have no hopes for the future, no fears or desires. But plenty of people do, but might die anyway due to say, a lack of healthcare or war.

 

[crazzeto]

flyingfish, maybe you missed it but I previously asked you a question regarding your views on abortion. You said you don’t remember being in the womb, so you don’t identify being in the womb with being life.

As I asked, I seriously doubt you remember being 1 & 2 years old. Thus I can only assume you don’t identify 1& 3 yr olds (or even 3 yr olds) as being alive. So, in your opinion, should killing a toddler merely be considered an abortion?

 

[ryecroft]

It’s interesting that you say this, because I was just thinking earlier today that I can’t for the life of me understand why people care so much about fetuses and embryos. It’s even to the point where people get very emotional and upset about using eggs fertilized in the lab for research/stem cells. Even if these are eggs that will otherwise be discarded or remain frozen indefinitely.

It’s true, I just don’t get it. There are so many more things in the world to care about. If the pro life cause is so important to you, why not fight for health care, why not fight for fairer wages for the poor, why not stand up for born victims of violence and other injustices?

I just can’t for the life of me get why people get so worked up about embryos/fetuses that don’t even have the primitive minds to be aware of themselves. They don’t know they’re alive, they don’t know they’re being killed, they have no hopes for the future, no fears or desires. But plenty of people do, but might die anyway due to say, a lack of healthcare or war.

Hi - I’m going to hope that maybe I can help bridge the gap here. I’m also hoping that you’re not just feeding off of people (and forgive me for saying this if you’re not we just get so many on here who often do- but you seem to be fairly genuine. I think one of the reasons that many of the people on here are so concerned with a bunch of eggs and fetuses is because of what they’ve been brought up to believe - that although that fetus or zygote is just as much a person as you or I - it just can’t exist on it’s own without support. Also a big part of this is that many Catholics believe that these fetus and zygotes have souls. The reasons they don’t seem to work as passionately for other issues like health care or poverty (and there are some that do care for these-many in fact - but I do understand that it doesn’t often seem that “pro life” Catholics have the same fervor about anything but pro life issues) is that all of those issues mean nothing unless someone can first be born. Personally, I’m told that I’m a “pro choice” Catholic by some on here because I believe that if a mother’s life is on the line, especially if the fetus is not viable that there is no reason for the mother to die - in fact, until recently, I felt that abortion wasn’t really physically harming if it was in the first trimester - but then I saw the what happened to a fetus when it was being aborted - and there was no question in my mind any longer that what was present in the womb was expressing not only fear but discomfort or pain. I know that some of this can attempt to be explained away, but personally, it seemed to me that it was expressing human fear. I could be wrong on some of this, but these are the conclusions I’ve come to.
God Bless
Rye

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

It’s interesting that you say this, because I was just thinking earlier today that I can’t for the life of me understand why people care so much about fetuses and embryos. It’s even to the point where people get very emotional and upset about using eggs fertilized in the lab for research/stem cells. Even if these are eggs that will otherwise be discarded or remain frozen indefinitely.

It’s true, I just don’t get it. There are so many more things in the world to care about. If the pro life cause is so important to you, why not fight for health care, why not fight for fairer wages for the poor, why not stand up for born victims of violence and other injustices?

I just can’t for the life of me get why people get so worked up about embryos/fetuses that don’t even have the primitive minds to be aware of themselves. They don’t know they’re alive, they don’t know they’re being killed, they have no hopes for the future, no fears or desires. But plenty of people do, but might die anyway due to say, a lack of healthcare or war.

I suggest that you read JREducation’s posts again to remind yourself what he actually does before you subtly crticise pro-life people for not doing enough for the sick or the ill.

Then I suggest that you go to the parenting forum, and read the *Mommies of Little Saints *thread. Try possibly to empathize with all the pain expressed by the various posters.

Have you known anyone who has had a miscarriage? Have you given them comfort, or do you tell them, “oh why are you sad, you haven’t lost a child?”

 

[shannyk]

It’s true, I just don’t get it. There are so many more things in the world to care about. If the pro life cause is so important to you, why not fight for health care, why not fight for fairer wages for the poor, why not stand up for born victims of violence and other injustices?

Who says people don’t do all of those things? People can do more than one thing at a time. It’s mind boggling to me that people say the Church is only interested in pro-life causes. Really, if you think that you need to take a good look around in the world and in history, because that assertion couldn’t be more wrong.

Thing is, it all starts with one individual. The rights of JUST ONE human being is infinitely valuable no matter to whom he’s born, where he lives or how educated or wealthy he is. In recognizing and fighting for the inherent dignity of the human being from the beginning to end of his lifetime, you’re fighting for every person, every race, every walk of life, every uncontrollable circumstance. You’re fighting for that individuals right to BE, just BE who they are, from beginning to end and everything in between.

Why care about a person who is poor having resources if you don’t care about them existing in the world in the first place? Why care about if people get sick and die needlessly becasue of a broken health care system if those same people could have been easily and secretly snuffed out at the beginning of their existence?

If you want to help people, you have to let them be born first.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It’s interesting that you say this, because I was just thinking earlier today that I can’t for the life of me understand why people care so much about fetuses and embryos. It’s even to the point where people get very emotional and upset about using eggs fertilized in the lab for research/stem cells. Even if these are eggs that will otherwise be discarded or remain frozen indefinitely.

It’s true, I just don’t get it. There are so many more things in the world to care about. If the pro life cause is so important to you, why not fight for health care, why not fight for fairer wages for the poor, why not stand up for born victims of violence and other injustices?

I just can’t for the life of me get why people get so worked up about embryos/fetuses that don’t even have the primitive minds to be aware of themselves. They don’t know they’re alive, they don’t know they’re being killed, they have no hopes for the future, no fears or desires. But plenty of people do, but might die anyway due to say, a lack of healthcare or war.

Thank you for your honesty. I would like to point out that prolifers are not just concerned with fertilized ova. Prolifers believe in the sanctity of all human life. What you see here is prolifers in a thread on abortion. We also fight for availability of health care, fair wages for everyone, stopping violence, and any form of injustice.

We are called “pro-lifers.” If we were just concerned with stopping abortion, we would more aptly be called “anti-abortion activists.” But that just covers part of our fight.

I also want to point out that one reason prolifers fight so hard to stop abortion is that abortion ends the life of such a young human being. The unborn are the most helpless people in the world. Look at my signature and you’ll understand what I’m trying to say.

I hope this helps!

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[flyingfish]

As I asked, I seriously doubt you remember being 1 & 2 years old. Thus I can only assume you don’t identify 1& 3 yr olds (or even 3 yr olds) as being alive. So, in your opinion, should killing a toddler merely be considered an abortion?

I do actually have specific memories from when I was 2 (I know this because my sibling was born when I was 3, and I remember specific trips, being on a plane, being on a beach looking for something we lost that happened before the birth of my sibling).

But I answered you later question multiple times in this thread, if you want the detailed response you can read my previous posts. I don’t want to write another long post repeating something I’ve already said. The short answer is no, killing a toddler should not be considered an abortion.

 

[flyingfish]

I think one of the reasons that many of the people on here are so concerned with a bunch of eggs and fetuses is because of what they’ve been brought up to believe - that although that fetus or zygote is just as much a person as you or I - it just can’t exist on it’s own without support. Also a big part of this is that many Catholics believe that these fetus and zygotes have souls.

I thought about this, and back when I believed the fetus had a soul and when I was a conservative Catholic I was also pro life, and I made an effort to promote the pro-life cause and so on. But I still didn’t have that emotional concern for the embryo/fetus. I opposed abortion because it was the Church’s position, on an emotional level I wasn’t concerned for the fetus/embryo. Hmm.

 

[flyingfish]

I suggest that you read JREducation’s posts again to remind yourself what he actually does before you subtly crticise pro-life people for not doing enough for the sick or the ill.

I’m not saying people who are anti-abortion don’t do these things, I’m saying they still expend considerable amounts of energy fighting abortion that could be directed toward putting more energy and resources into those other things!

Have you known anyone who has had a miscarriage? Have you given them comfort, or do you tell them, “oh why are you sad, you haven’t lost a child?”

I’ve never know anyone who has had a miscarriage, and if someone I knew did of course I wouldn’t say “you haven’t lost a child.” Obviously if someone wants to have a baby, and gets pregnant, and gets excited and attached to the fetus is going to be in pain if it gets miscarried. If it were someone I knew I would care about the pain they’re going through, if it was just a random person I would be comforting out of politeness.

But I wouldn’t feel sad for the fetus that got miscarried, I’d feel sad for the woman who lost the pregnancy.

Why care about a person who is poor having resources if you don’t care about them existing in the world in the first place? Why care about if people get sick and die needlessly becasue of a broken health care system if those same people could have been easily and secretly snuffed out at the beginning of their existence?

Thank you for your honesty. I would like to point out that prolifers are not just concerned with fertilized ova. Prolifers believe in the sanctity of all human life. What you see here is prolifers in a thread on abortion. We also fight for availability of health care, fair wages for everyone, stopping violence, and any form of injustice.

But if you only have so many resources and have to choose between providing healthcare for say a poor teenager with treatable cancer but who can’t afford treatment, or spending those resources fighting abortion legislation it seems that many pro-life people would choose to spend it fighting the abortion legislation. That is what I don’t understand.

I’m not saying people who are pro-life don’t care about anything other than abortion, I’m saying it seems to be the main priority .

 

[sanctamaria17]

In response to the question of, “Why don’t pro-life Catholics help people born?” I have a relatively simple answer.

We do.

To be pro-life is to believe all human life is sacred. That includes the embryo/fetus/zygote, that includes the elderly, the poor, the imprisoned, the sick, the immigrant, the child, the mother.

It’s not the same as saving a follicle or a heart cell. One, those aren’t totipotent, meaning they can never develop into an adult human being (due to cell differentiation). They are already a human being, by their DNA, by their very potential. A human has the potential to fulfill every aspect of inherited traits, talents and dispositions. That’s what makes them human. That’s what makes that speck different from all the other specks that we’re composed of.

If you truly care about the weak and defenseless, you do it all the time, not just when it’s convenient.

It was funny, I was at this anti-death penalty protest and a reporter pulled me aside, pointed to an anti-abortion group (anti-abortion protest was going on) and said, “If they’re so pro-life, why don’t they join you?” I said, “Well, ma’am, I’m actually one of them and I’m here for both reasons today.” And you know something? One of them DID! Reporter shut her mouth so fast, you would have thought her upper lip was an anvil.

Why do you think I’m going into International Development? Why do I care so much about health care, food security, economics, domestic violence, sexual assault, wage rates, etc? Because I care about ALL life. I care as much for the mother’s well being as I do the baby’s. But you’ve GOT to sacrifice for the weak and defenseless. Because Shanny and everyone else are right .The rights mean NOTHING if you can’t be alive to enjoy them. And they mean NOTHING if society can just kill you when you’re weak and therefore inconvenient.

Wah, wah, wah to all those who say, “well, I don’t want to sacrifice my personal comfort, blah, blah, blah.” That was the same attitude of those who condoned slavery, the Holocaust, genocide in places like Rwanda and our own tragedies in the U.S. You know what? Love of any kind involves sacrifice, whether it’s a mother for her child, a husband for his wife, friends for each other. If you care about the environment, maybe you should limit your car use, even if it’s a tad, “inconvenient”, rather than tell all the families with six kids to get sterilized. If you care about poverty, maybe give up some of your personal wealth and time to fight systemic problems to actually make a difference. Maybe watch a woman’s children so she can take a night class and start earning her way towards a better job.

Seriously. Some people just like to whine, whine, whine, complain, complain, complain about social injustice, blah, blah, blah, but when they actually are faced with doing something, with changing it, it’s inconvenient and they don’t want to do anything. Well, if you’re gonna be like that, stop whining and act your age (not directed at any posters here, just an attitude I’m around all the time). My dad worked his butt off for his three kids and never complained about what burden it was to not own a mansion.

We’ve gotten to the point where people have become commodities. That is disgusting, despicable, and we will all have to answer for it. Even those who don’t believe can still stomach the idea of karma.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Many doesn’t mean all and I don’t agree with it either. Personally, I believe that you have to build a pro-life culture so that the people will change the law. But I can understand why. It’s because if you believe that people are being denied their basic right to life…then what does it matter if they get health care, etc ONLY IF THEY WERE CHOSEN? To a lot of people, it’s like if a State provided universal health care…but only to rich white people. To others, what does it matter if their country offers health care? They can’t enjoy it!

Yes, some of us can only work on one cause at a time. That’s why people have to work together, people with the same beliefs, but different methods, different callings and different ways of sharing resources. It’s the same within my own field of International Development. Many of my classmates and I share similar views but some of us will apply it to health care , some to business, some to education, some to human rights, some to law enforcement, some to engineering and some to policy. And that’s just a few examples! It’s the same within the pro-life movement, which is more complex than the media will ever show you.

Learn about Feminists for Life. They do more than fight for abortion legislation. They’re actually really cool and try and change systemic issues.

 

[flyingfish]

I think a few of you misunderstood me. I never meant to say that Pro-life people don’t do anything for the born, my question was more why isn’t it the born all the way. Pro-life people don’t have infinite resources, so every dollar/minute spent on helping the unborn is every dollar/minute they could have been helping the born.

I understand the intellectual reasons why, souls, Church teaching and so on. But I just don’t understand the emotional reasons, I don’t understand why people are so upset when a fertilized egg is destroyed for research say. And not just a little bit upset, but upset enough to go out and protest, vote only for politicians that oppose this (even if they also happen to oppose social programs like healthcare), etc.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Read my last post. I kind of explained how different pro-life people could do different things and focus on different issues.

 

[sanctamaria17]

And, like I said, if you believe the unborn is a human and that therefore, abortion is systematic murder…it would be a crisis that needed immediate attention.

Besides, we’re Catholic, we don’t see it as competition for resources. We believe in sharing and sacrifice. So, while it may be natural human instinct, we believe that, as humans and not animals, we are called to rise above instinct. There’s more than enough money in the world. The problem is, a few privileged (and sometimes corrupt) people are the ones who are in control.

 

[flyingfish]

And, like I said, if you believe the unborn is a human and that therefore, abortion is systematic murder…it would be a crisis that needed immediate attention.

I understand this, and I used to think so as well. But for me it was an intellectual belief that it’s murder and therefore must be stopped. I didn’t feel emotionally disturbed as I do when I read about the holocaust or slavery.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I do…and I have family that’s been through the Holocaust…

I’ve felt just as physically sick walking next to an abortion clinic as I have a gas chamber in Dachau when I was 18 years old. If I know that torture, death or horror has happened in a place, I sense it and it makes me ill. But I tend to be perceptive anyway. It’s just how I am. I can’t physically stomach cruelty. When I had to do child abuse training, we had to watch a movie where former offenders spoke of their methods and I almost puked all over the floor. I think that’s why I’m so passionate about ending violence of all kinds. I have knee-jerk reactions to it. Even when I’m watching the Godfather or something, I have to excuse myself when the husband beats his wife. I guess I’m like my Muslim friends in the fact that I believe killing one human is killing all mankind.

But even more than feelings, which can deceive, it’s because I know, from my science education (I was a premedical student at one point, I still think of going into midwifery/nursing eventually), from what I know of history and politics, from my faith, and from my own nuanced views about gender (even my pro-choice friends are like, “Dang girl! You’re pro-life and Catholic but you’re really hardcore feminist!”) that it’s wrong. If it is a question of a woman’s heath and they can’t save the baby at all, yes, you have to save the mom. You have to remove a damaged tube from a tubal pregnancy, baby’s gonna die anyway. Otherwise though…absolutely not.

Also, to many, genocide is an intellectual belief. Even emotionally sensitive people can’t fathom cruelty until they’ve seen it. Some people read about Rwanda and can’t feel anything, because it’s so far removed from their daily lives, unlike the Tutsi who saw their family killed yet still managed to live.