Abortion: Even the non-religious should be against it

[Des]

Really??? I was under the impression that the Catholic church said abortion is acceptable if the woman has an ectopic pregnancy.

You must have misunderstood it then MikiBee. Such a procedure will inevitably involve the death of a mother’s unborn child but it’s never intentional.

 

[Arismal]

Personally I am pro-choice, that doesn’t mean I attack pregnant women with coat hangers, it means I respect the womans right to choose what she wants to do, as all in a democracy should be free to do

Abortion shouldn’t be used as birth control, it should be used like Police Officers use lethal force, the very last resort when there is absolutely no other option

 

[Darkbloom]

Personally I am pro-choice, that doesn’t mean I attack pregnant women with coat hangers, it means I respect the womans right to choose what she wants to do, as all in a democracy should be free to do

That trope is totally disingenuous. Being pro-life is not about being against a woman’s choice to care for her health as she sees fit, it is about being against a woman’s choice to murder her child if she feels like it.

We all support laws that ban murder. An abortion ban is just a subset of those laws.

 

[Lizziebel]

But you still don’t explain why the fact that the fetus could one day possess valuable attributes means that we should treat it as if it has those attributes right now.

OK, to clarify. I may have misinterpreted you earlier, but you seemed to be saying that an unborn baby isn’t a life yet. I was saying that yes, he or she is. A human life. You don’t need any more than that to treat him or her as any other innocent living human.

I wasn’t making an argument or explanation beyond stating that we are talking about a human life here. There are no other valuable attributes needed than that, and he or she already has it from the beginning.

Whatever wonderful people and joys this child will hopefully one day have as part of that life, is simply all the more reason to give that child every possible chance to experience it all rather than deprive him or her of it.

There are times when I think abortion is clearly the best option, and times where the best option is more unclear. I think a clear example of the former would be a woman who found out that she’s one month pregnant, and for whom pregnancy poses serious health risks.

That is a heartbreaking circumstance, as is any medically complicated pregnancy. And there is so much uncertainty when that happens. How certain is it really possible for a doctor to be that the condition can’t be monitored and treated long enough for mom to be able to be safe and healthy while her baby reaches the point of being able to be delivered and have the best chance of surviving, too? Whatever the circumstance, they both deserve the best care possible, and the best option is one that provides that.

 

[Polycarp1]

Personally I am pro-choice, that doesn’t mean I attack pregnant women with coat hangers, it means I respect the womans right to choose what she wants to do, as all in a democracy should be free to do

Abortion shouldn’t be used as birth control, it should be used like Police Officers use lethal force, the very last resort when there is absolutely no other option

That doesn’t change the fact that abortion in any form or for any reason is against God’s law. I can’t say that in some situations its okay for me to murder someone and others it isn’t. Murder is murder and God commands against it. It is not a question that we can trust to our own worldly sensibilities and justice and then hope God won’t hold us accountable, God is always God, unchanging, and unfortunately however much we try to rationalize our wrong actions we don’t get to create God in our own image.

 

[Arismal]

That doesn’t change the fact that abortion in any form or for any reason is against God’s law. I can’t say that in some situations its okay for me to murder someone and others it isn’t. Murder is murder and God commands against it. It is not a question that we can trust to our own worldly sensibilities and justice and then hope God won’t hold us accountable, God is always God, unchanging, and unfortunately however much we try to rationalize our wrong actions we don’t get to create God in our own image.

But what if it’s a baby conceived by rape, it has immense deformities or complications or the mothers life is in jeopardy?

 

[Polycarp1]

But what if it’s a baby conceived by rape, it has immense deformities or complications or the mothers life is in jeopardy?

Nope, all have an equal right to life and we don’t have the right to decide who will live and who will not. That is for God alone.

 

[Arismal]

Nope, all have an equal right to life and we don’t have the right to decide who will live and who will not. That is for God alone.

So a woman carrying a child that delivering will kill her has to lay back and await death? To me that choice is unacceptable, I couldn't imagine what would be going through her and her partners mind knowing they were sitting there waiting for her death

 

[Polycarp1]

So a woman carrying a child that delivering will kill her has to lay back and await death? To me that choice is unacceptable, I couldn’t imagine what would be going through her and her partners mind knowing they were sitting there waiting for her death

In your theoretical example there can be no certainty of death and if ever faced with that,we should do everything moral and scientifically possible to save both the mother and child. But nobody seems to know of an actual case where it was certain the mother would die if the baby wasn’t killed. Pro choice people just use that “what if” in an attempt to grease the road to abortion on demand.

 

[Des]

So a woman carrying a child that delivering will kill her has to lay back and await death? To me that choice is unacceptable, I couldn’t imagine what would be going through her and her partners mind knowing they were sitting there waiting for her death

Why is it that people love bringing up a scenario that brings about such a small percentage of abortions while they show zero concern for the majority of abortions being used as birth control. What does it matter to you if we are against creating two victims out of rape when you’re obviously for it, especially when you could care less about all other millions of unborn victims year after year.

And if you were aborted, you wouldn’t even be here to ask this question. Lucky you.

 

[Zatzat]

Really??? I was under the impression that the Catholic church said abortion is acceptable if the woman has an ectopic pregnancy.

An ectopic pregancy is a non viable pregnancy.

 

[MikiBee]

An ectopic pregancy is a non viable pregnancy.

Most of the time, but sometimes the baby safely grows in the abdomen of the woman outside of the uterus. Here is just one example: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7427907.stm. There are several other similar stories.

So, it surprises me now that the Catholic church still allows for removal of the fetus even in ectopic pregnancies, since there is that ever-so-slim chance it won’t kill the mother.

 

[Arismal]

Why is it that people love bringing up a scenario that brings about such a small percentage of abortions while they show zero concern for the majority of abortions being used as birth control. What does it matter to you if we are against creating two victims out of rape when you’re obviously for it, especially when you could care less about all other millions of unborn victims year after year.

And if you were aborted, you wouldn’t even be here to ask this question. Lucky you.

Hey, I don’t like seeing it used as birth control anymore than you do, that’s what contraceptives are for (if it’s them or abortion which is more preferable?), and what exactly do you mean when you say I’m ‘for rape’?

Perhaps abortions should be more restricted but as it is, they’re allowed, in the Republic of Ireland it’s legal but it’s so hard to get one many women either travel to the UK to get it, or wind up in a back alley with some quack weilding a coat hanger to avoid the social stigma of having had one. If the woman is that desperate to have one she’s going to have one, at least this way one life can be saved instead of losing two

 

[Des]

Hey, I don’t like seeing it used as birth control anymore than you do, that’s what contraceptives are for (if it’s them or abortion which is more preferable?), and what exactly do you mean when you say I’m ‘for rape’?

I never said you were for rape but to clarify, I meant you were for adding a second victim of rape instead of leaving it at just one.

And why are you not for abortion used as a birth control method anyways if you don’t view it as a human being with basic human rights? Why should it bother you?

Perhaps abortions should be more restricted but as it is, they’re allowed, in the Republic of Ireland it’s legal but it’s so hard to get one many women either travel to the UK to get it, or wind up in a back alley with some quack weilding a coat hanger to avoid the social stigma of having had one.

This is actually one of the reasons in favour for abortion that is thrown at the anti-life argument. But this is how we view it from our perspective.

"Let’s give people the freedom to murder because it would be wrong for us to make it illegal to murder if they’re endangering their lives in the process."

Do you see where I’m going if you look at it from our point of view? They’re arguing a point based on their already preconceived notion that the unborn aren’t considered people with someone who does. So the point is basically irrelavent to us. Now I’m not sure if that’s what you were attempting to get at but I kind of got the feeling you were.

If the woman is that desperate to have one she’s going to have one, at least this way one life can be saved instead of losing two

It’s still giving the ok to murder a life to save a life. Would you ok killing the mother to save the baby’s life instead so we can at least save one life rather than losing two? And again, it’s such a small percentage, that I wonder why you’re not out arguing against 99 percent of all other abortions cases.

 

[Polycarp1]

When we start thinking that we have the right to decide who lives or dies we are usurping God’s rights as our Creator. In fact in doing so we are setting ourselves up as our own false gods.
It is the deadly sin of pride to believe this, just as it was for Satan and his followers who wanted to be as God.

 

[Darkbloom]

This thread should make it perfectly clear that no one can argue for abortion unless they use much obfuscation and disingenuous.

 

[Polycarp1]

The truth remains the truth and never changes, what was wrong spiritually cannot all of a sudden become right based on gthe whims of society wanting to mitigate or justify wrong behavior. While trying to convince others that wrong behavior has become right, in reality the person is really trying to convince themselves over that inner sense of what is right and silence the voice of their own conscience.

We may be able to deceive ourselves but God will not be fooled. He has written truth on our hearts.

 

[Arismal]

I never said you were for rape but to clarify, I meant you were for adding a second victim of rape instead of leaving it at just one.

And why are you not for abortion used as a birth control method anyways if you don’t view it as a human being with basic human rights? Why should it bother you?

This is actually one of the reasons in favour for abortion that is thrown at the anti-life argument. But this is how we view it from our perspective.

"Let’s give people the freedom to murder because it would be wrong for us to make it illegal to murder if they’re endangering their lives in the process."

Do you see where I’m going if you look at it from our point of view? They’re arguing a point based on their already preconceived notion that the unborn aren’t considered people with someone who does. So the point is basically irrelavent to us. Now I’m not sure if that’s what you were attempting to get at but I kind of got the feeling you were.

It’s still giving the ok to murder a life to save a life. Would you ok killing the mother to save the baby’s life instead so we can at least save one life rather than losing two? And again, it’s such a small percentage, that I wonder why you’re not out arguing against 99 percent of all other abortions cases.

I’m against women using it because they forgot to use a condom or got so drunk they threw up the birth control pill, or forgot to get the morning after pill, it’s irresponsible and it wastes the time of doctors who could be giving abortion to women who actually need one or doing other medical work (the abortion clinic in my home town is part of a larger clinic that does other medical work as well, so it’s not uncommon to see doctors performing an abortion then heading off to give a kid his flu shot, I know not every clinic uses this model but I’m using it as an example), if you’re mature enough to have sex you’re mature enough to take responsibility for the consequences, not use an important medical procedure as a cop out

I think in general I support the pro-choice movement because at the end of the day I dislike telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body, it’s up to her in the end and it’s her rightful freedom to make the decision to abort or not, if a rape victim wanted to keep the baby I wouldn’t complain since I believe it’s her choice. I may not like seeing it used as birth control but in the end I believe in the freedom to choose, if women decide to abuse that freedom I may not like it but I’ll tolerate it for those who really need to abort, for whatever reasons they have

 

[Darkbloom]

I think in general I support the pro-choice movement because at the end of the day I dislike telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body, it’s up to her in the end and it’s her rightful freedom to make the decision to abort or not, if a rape victim wanted to keep the baby I wouldn’t complain since I believe it’s her choice. I may not like seeing it used as birth control but in the end I believe in the freedom to choose, if women decide to abuse that freedom I may not like it but I’ll tolerate it for those who really need to abort, for whatever reasons they have

No one should have the freedom to commit murder.

 

[Soutane]

No one should have the freedom to commit murder.

AYE! when iwas at the March for Life in Ottawa amongst the 15,000Marchers we saw Atheists for Life.I even saw one guy who was considerably counterculture and hirsuite holding a sign saying "do I look like a Catholic?Do i look like a suit?do I look like a government stooge?Anarchists for Life!!! "

Murder is Murder and you can stamp your feet and close your ears and say it’s a blob of tissue-IT"S A BABY AND IT"S BEING MURDERED.

Just like the Jews,Gypsies,Poles,Slavs,Russians,Homosexuals,disabled and clergy at Auschwits they are considered sub-human.

Thomas Jefferson said “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.”