Abortion for rape victims

  • Thread starter Thread starter rain_bow
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, said my friend. I agree 100%. There are other ways out of a “bad” situation than MURDER! What I don’t get is how it is legal to kill your baby before it’s born (in some states even late term!) but not after. So I can kill my child in utero at week 28 & that’s fine, but if it’s born & I kill it then it’s murder. Where is the logic in that? This issue is one that is close to my heart. I abhor abortion. How can such a thing be legal? I abhor the “pro-choice” argument.
Well said. Whenever personhood is defined functionally, the dividing line between persons and non-persons will be based on a decision by those in power, a decision of will. Such a decision, given the history of humanity, will inevitably be based on self-interest. Where there is an interest in killing persons, they will be DEFINED as non-persons. Any nation that legalizes murder has signed its own death sentence.
 
A brilliant and irrefutable response (name removed by moderator),
but I rather expect that the pro-abortion ( insert murder here ) advocates will still disagree with you. God will Judge.
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.
 
I have asked this question to “ask an apologist” forum. But They did not reply me. So I have decided to discuss here.As far I know Roman Catholic Church is pro life and it considers that life begins with fertilization.

Anyway What is the scientific proof of it? What Eastern orthodox Churches teaches about it? Are rape victims allowed to abortion before fetal stage, or not? If not then what would happen if a married women is rape victim,or a child?

Why they must carry the lifeless fertile ovum( scientific), and then make it a real baby? And for married women, why husbands will accept it? And after all before fetal stage , even it does not kick, so how is it possible that life begins with fertilization?
If you don’t believe in Catholicism than you won’t believe the Bible. God said he knew us before we were knitted in our mother’s womb. They have prove it with ultrasound so it’s a fact something is alive, and it’s human. So why wouldn’t you think it is a baby? Just because something isn’t fully formed doesn’t mean it is less human trying to grow and then someone cuts off it’s life as it’s trying to live. Think of it this way, we protect animals more than we protect the life of a baby. If you were to destroy an eagles egg you would go to jail. Why wouldn’t life start at conception? We are human and have to start from the beginning and if you destroy the human being growing, you are destroying a human being with potential, not a potential human being,

Why do you think we have over 50 million and more less people in this world? They were slaughter quietly and behind the scenes. Because we have more technology, we can fool people into thinking nothing of a life. But don’t kill a hamster, you will be condemned for life. Don’t you see how back wards all of this is? We have been slaughtering babies for inconvenience. You don’t kill anything that is living even if someone was raped, it isn’t the baby’s fault. 9 months of inconvenience for the life of a human being. Give it away if you don’t want it. We don’t kill an innocent child out of the womb, so why kill one in the womb that is still growing. This is common sense. Which most people don’t have anymore. God help us.

Why don’t you watch this, it’s worth watching and thinking about. youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI
 
Modern genetics and embryology have PROVEN that the unborn entity is a living, unique genetic member of Homo sapiens from the moment of conception. And even before we had modern science to establish this fact, we have a thing called Logic that allowed us to determine that the unborn entity can be nothing OTHER than a living, developing member of our species. Personhood is an unalienable, pre-political right, tied directly to our “nature” - our status AS members of homo sapiens. The unborn entity is fully human and therefore MUST be a legally-protected person. Personhood should not be determined on a functionalist basis.
👍
 
From the moment of conception it is alive. There is literally no other way it can possibly be and to argue that is like saying fire is cold.
 
I just cant imagine how difficult it would be for a rape victim 😦 abortion is not fine but putting ourselves in a girl’s shoes who’s been raped, would you be so proud that a new person has been created that you forget how it came to be? I really hope some of those girls do feel that. I can pray for those victims they dont fall pregnant but if it does happen they need to accept new life. As you guys pointed out, it is a human being.
 
diviefaith,

I certainly understand that a girl/woman that has been raped would suffer greatly in many different ways…even to the point of having an abortion. But the pain of having a child and putting him/her up for adoption would be much less painful in the long run compared to living with the consequences of having taken the life of an innocent child. We know that a rape victim is more likely to have an abortion, probably. Her mental capacity during this time would probably reduce her culpability as well. Removing the perceptions people have about rape would probably help. But lets face it, it’s not likely going to change completely. Sins, even murder by abortion, can be forgiven. But we still need to help rape victims avoid making an emotional decision during her time of suffering.
 
Rape is horrible, but abortion remains murder.
We can sympathize but never defend the action.
What if the woman was raped, carried her child to term, and then killed him?
A life is a life, no matter how young, and the murder of the innocent is something that there is no excuse for.

Pray to make abortion illegal with no exception, (except maybe when the mother is truly in grave danger of dying (only), and only if abortion is the side effect (not the goal) of surgery to save the mother).

Compromise on murder is foolish, the child is still dead, and is still just as innocent.
 
diviefaith,

I certainly understand that a girl/woman that has been raped would suffer greatly in many different ways…even to the point of having an abortion. But the pain of having a child and putting him/her up for adoption would be much less painful in the long run compared to living with the consequences of having taken the life of an innocent child. We know that a rape victim is more likely to have an abortion, probably. Her mental capacity during this time would probably reduce her culpability as well. Removing the perceptions people have about rape would probably help. But lets face it, it’s not likely going to change completely. Sins, even murder by abortion, can be forgiven. But we still need to help rape victims avoid making an emotional decision during her time of suffering.
The statistics of women being raped and wanting an abortion is that many do not want to abort, but have people trying to persuade them. Especially if they were raped by someone they knew and they are trying to control them so other people won’t find out what happen to them, so they may threaten them. Many feel that the rape was out of their control, but keeping the baby would be in their control and are so many times berated for not aborting. Especially when they are young. It is not what people assume that is the norm, it’s what other people want them to do. I don’t remember where I read this, but it makes sense, because a women’s first instinct is to protect the baby. Half of the baby is theirs. How many young women are influenced by other people and made to feel ashamed to keep the baby, like is it not human?
Also how many have been raped? Not everything is what it seems. Bottom line it’s murder and every women will be sorry sooner or later, because it will eat at them eventually, especially when they may have a baby if they can in the future.
 
The statistics of women being raped and wanting an abortion is that many do not want to abort, but have people trying to persuade them. Especially if they were raped by someone they knew and they are trying to control them so other people won’t find out what happen to them, so they may threaten them. Many feel that the rape was out of their control, but keeping the baby would be in their control and are so many times berated for not aborting. Especially when they are young. It is not what people assume that is the norm, it’s what other people want them to do. I don’t remember where I read this, but it makes sense, because a women’s first instinct is to protect the baby. Half of the baby is theirs. How many young women are influenced by other people and made to feel ashamed to keep the baby, like is it not human?
Also how many have been raped? Not everything is what it seems. Bottom line it’s murder and every women will be sorry sooner or later, because it will eat at them eventually, especially when they may have a baby if they can in the future.
I read a statistic some time back that one in four women are either raped or molested (fail to see the differece). My wife is one of them. Her’s was as you said, threats of death ad harm and he actually did harm her. He did it over a 6 month period. She never told anyone until her senior year in college, about 5 years after the fact. When I heard of her situation from one of my soldiers that really seemed to not empathize as much as me, I looked for an excuse to go see her. I had been through something less difficult, but all the same felt the shame in what happened to me. I ended up marrying her… probably shouldn’t have, because I did it outside the Church and converted to her faith… (long story). But we’re married for 22 years and only have 3 children. Much of her beliefs and fears about having children was rooted i her Protestant upbringing. A raped woman would have been blamed for “putting herself out there”… blame the victim, not the criminal. She still suffers from major anxieties and depression. Her family never knew, still don’t. I told one of her brothers because it became overwhelming for me to handle it on my own. He said nothing afterwards. I think that speaks mounds about the family situation. Her family is full of preachers, deacons ad elders. The shame of it would have humiliated her and her family. SAD. It makes me angry still. But I can’t do anything except take care of her.

Before I came along she was dating losers, both with and without money. Men that were using her, trying to get into her pants. I gave up returning to the seminary to take care of her, but also because I fell i love with her ad felt that this might be my only chance to find someone that would accept me and my poverty and pain. Even poor girls in my history never saw me as a serious candidate for marriage, mostly because of my poverty. I grew disenchanted with Catholic girls seeking the guy they could love just as much as a poor guy, like me. I had nothing to offer except my undying love and devotion.

I still believe God led me to my wife and away from the materialistic easy road seekers with whom I became disgusted. I began judging my own worthlessness based on the way my poverty was received. Being a smart and hard worker wasn’t good enough. I was an engineering student and wanted to build a life for myself and my family. The women wanted to start off in Barbie houses. I joined the Army to get away from my humiliation caused from an alcoholic dad and dysfunctional family. Try not being ashamed of your own family when your own family puts you in harms way.

Anyway, God seems to have allowed me to make a misdirected decision since I was poorly catechized and very confused, angry and doubtful. The seminary was the worst thing for me under the circumstances - condition of the seminaries during my time, flooded with homosexuals and sympathizers. But had I hung on a few more years I would have seen them turned away from the seminaries. I lost my faith in the Catholic Church as a result of being marginalized in what happened to me - priest molestation in my sleep. I lost all trust in all authoritative structures. Joining the Army was a nightmare for me that I really did in order to try to get killed in battle. I wanted to die but knew it was a sin to take my own life. I wanted to at least save what little dignity I could get back by dying i the line of duty. This is the only way I can truly understand how a rape victim must feel. However, I’m not claiming to relate quite that much. But it does appear that God led me to my wife as an alternate vocation to becoming a priest in the environment still plagued by bishops, priests, deacons and laity in denial how how twisted things had become. I nearly died when I realized I had made a real mistake leaving the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I still feel the humiliation from doing it. But I assure you it was because I thought I had made the correct choice by joining a church that made more sense to me during that time in my life.

Rape is far worst than what I went through and because of my experience, I can understand how a woman, without a stable environment can get manipulated into having an abortion. People still kick you when you are down. Sometimes the one’s you never suspected.
 
I read a statistic some time back that one in four women are either raped or molested (fail to see the difference). My wife is one of them. Her’s was as you said, threats of death ad harm and he actually did harm her. He did it over a 6 month period. She never told anyone until her senior year in college, about 5 years after the fact. When I heard of her situation from one of my soldiers that really seemed to not empathize as much as me, I looked for an excuse to go see her. I had been through something less difficult, but all the same felt the shame in what happened to me. I ended up marrying her… probably shouldn’t have, because I did it outside the Church and converted to her faith… (long story). But we’re married for 22 years and only have 3 children. Much of her beliefs and fears about having children was rooted i her Protestant upbringing. A raped woman would have been blamed for “putting herself out there”… blame the victim, not the criminal. She still suffers from major anxieties and depression. Her family never knew, still don’t. I told one of her brothers because it became overwhelming for me to handle it on my own. He said nothing afterwords. I think that speaks mounds about the family situation. Her family is full of preachers, deacons ad elders. The shame of it would have humiliated her and her family. SAD. It makes me angry still. But I can’t do anything except take care of her.

Before I came along she was dating losers, both with and without money. Men that were using her, trying to get into her pants. I gave up returning to the seminary to take care of her, but also because I fell i love with her ad felt that this might be my only chance to find someone that would accept me and my poverty and pain. Even poor girls in my history never saw me as a serious candidate for marriage, mostly because of my poverty. I grew disenchanted with Catholic girls seeking the guy they could love just as much as a poor guy, like me. I had nothing to offer except my undying love and devotion.

I still believe God led me to my wife and away from the materialistic easy road seekers with whom I became disgusted. I began judging my own worthlessness based on the way my poverty was received. Being a smart and hard worker wasn’t good enough. I was an engineering student and wanted to build a life for myself and my family. The women wanted to start off in Barbie houses. I joined the Army to get away from my humiliation caused from an alcoholic dad and dysfunctional family. Try not being ashamed of your own family when your own family puts you in harms way.

Anyway, God seems to have allowed me to make a misdirected decision since I was poorly catechized and very confused, angry and doubtful. The seminary was the worst thing for me under the circumstances - condition of the seminaries during my time, flooded with homosexuals and sympathizers. But had I hung on a few more years I would have seen them turned away from the seminaries. I lost my faith in the Catholic Church as a result of being marginalized in what happened to me - priest molestation in my sleep. I lost all trust in all authoritative structures. Joining the Army was a nightmare for me that I really did in order to try to get killed in battle. I wanted to die but knew it was a sin to take my own life. I wanted to at least save what little dignity I could get back by dying i the line of duty. This is the only way I can truly understand how a rape victim must feel. However, I’m not claiming to relate quite that much. But it does appear that God led me to my wife as an alternate vocation to becoming a priest in the environment still plagued by bishops, priests, deacons and laity in denial how how twisted things had become. I nearly died when I realized I had made a real mistake leaving the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I still feel the humiliation from doing it. But I assure you it was because I thought I had made the correct choice by joining a church that made more sense to me during that time in my life.

Rape is far worst than what I went through and because of my experience, I can understand how a woman, without a stable environment can get manipulated into having an abortion. People still kick you when you are down. Sometimes the one’s you never suspected.
Oh my, So so sorry for all your pain and your wife’ pain as well. Your a hero in my mind, don’t forget how much God loves you and what you are doing is the right thing. My son has SSA and without going into it, My husband and I have suffered much, but it brought me and my husband back to our faith and even in suffering which is all redemptive, I have never been happier with my faith. I love God so much for what he has done to bring me back to him the way I was supposed to be. I am still learning and growing. Think of all the souls we save by joining our suffering with our Lord. One day I pray that he will say, enter the Kingdom of heaven my good and faithful servant. We will be in his love for all eternity. That always makes me tear.
God bless you
 
Oh my, So so sorry for all your pain and your wife’ pain as well. Your a hero in my mind, don’t forget how much God loves you and what you are doing is the right thing. My son has SSA and without going into it, My husband and I have suffered much, but it brought me and my husband back to our faith and even in suffering which is all redemptive, I have never been happier with my faith. I love God so much for what he has done to bring me back to him the way I was supposed to be. I am still learning and growing. Think of all the souls we save by joining our suffering with our Lord. One day I pray that he will say, enter the Kingdom of heaven my good and faithful servant. We will be in his love for all eternity. That always makes me tear.
God bless you
Redemptive suffering has a way of doing that to a person. It can make us Saints. I offer it up as well.
 
“The only times we even question whether human beings are persons (or “truly” human) are during exploitation and injustice. During the Holocaust, in support of slavery, and to spread eugenics, for example, we have questioned whether the people exploited or abused are really, truly human. To me, that’s powerful.” liveaction.org/blog/is-it-a-person/

This reminds of the famous speech Sojourner Truth gave about being a black woman:
**“Ain’t I a Woman?” **

Well here’s a beautiful music video written by a man who was conceived in rape:
theradiancefoundation.org/portfolio-item/unwanted-a-story-about-choice/

WELL AIN’T I A PERSON???
 
I have asked this question to “ask an apologist” forum. But They did not reply me. So I have decided to discuss here.As far I know Roman Catholic Church is pro life and it considers that life begins with fertilization.

Anyway What is the scientific proof of it? What Eastern orthodox Churches teaches about it? Are rape victims allowed to abortion before fetal stage, or not? If not then what would happen if a married women is rape victim,or a child?

Why they must carry the lifeless fertile ovum( scientific), and then make it a real baby? And for married women, why husbands will accept it? And after all before fetal stage , even it does not kick, so how is it possible that life begins with fertilization?
Science does not have an answer to your question “when does life occur” in the sense that you want. You are trying to answer a philosophical question scientifically. If science has anything to say about it, then life certainly does begin at conception, because the newly-multiplying cells in the woman’s uterus meet the functional criteria of “organization, metabolism, growth, irritability, adaptation, and reproduction”. That is the biological definition of the functions that define life.

But to answer your question in the way that you want answered: Life begins at conception because life does not begin without conception. Conception is the starting point of life, so regardless of what you might call the new life that begins during the moment of conception, that life would not have begun without conception. If you go one millisecond before conception and stop it from happening, then the life would not begin. That is why life begins at conception.
 
Life is the condition of matter that reacts to stimuli, takes in resources, produces waste, and makes others like itself.

Life never “occurs.” It’s passed on, from cell to gamete, from zygote to embryo. A zygote (initial combination of sperm and egg before implantation) has unique DNA. This DNA is unquestionably human. That is most of what science can tell us about this matter.

What science cannot tell us is what is the difference between a human and a human being, or even if there is any. Science cannot tell us what a human being even is, or why it should be protected over all things.

I just subconsciously scratched my arm, slaughtering at least 100 skin cells that were undeniably human. However, I assure you, no human beings were harmed in the making of this post.

So, is a zygote a human being? Science cannot tell us that. Is a fetus a human being when it begins to have nervous tissue? When it has it’s first heartbeat? When it makes it’s first fist? Science cannot tell us any of this.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that we must act as if person-hood begins at conception, not because we know objectively, but because it is too big a risk of killing a person versus any possible good that can come from terminating the pregnancy.

Rape, however, is an interesting issue, though not for the reasons you state. The Catholic Church teaches that it is not immoral for a woman to use contraception if she is raped, as long as it is not abortion. This served as a head-scratcher for me, because all contraception methods that a woman has control over possibly work as aborficants. If anyone could explain this to me, I’d be glad to hear why.
 
Hi,
I don’t know where you heard that it is not immoral for a person that is raped to use contraception.
I guess if the rapist is considerate and uses a condom then you were prevented from a disease, it would be nice of the rapist. But I don’t think too many rapist are that considerate.

I don’t believe you were informed properly, and I agree with the previous statements for the first question.
The church teaches no contraception. Life is life and if you kill something that has a start, then you have kill it period. Humans have a start, we aren’t growing a goat.

Anyway, as you are being raped if you pleaded for them to use a condom, I don’t think it would be immoral, just keeping from the consequences that may even kill you, but like I said what rapist do that. Maybe that is what it meant. No one is asking to be raped.
I think the point was after the rape if you got pregnant, you cannot kill the baby, it wasn’t the baby’s fault how they were conceived. People can still give it up for adoption.
God Bless
Life is the condition of matter that reacts to stimuli, takes in resources, produces waste, and makes others like itself.

Life never “occurs.” It’s passed on, from cell to gamete, from zygote to embryo. A zygote (initial combination of sperm and egg before implantation) has unique DNA. This DNA is unquestionably human. That is most of what science can tell us about this matter.

What science cannot tell us is what is the difference between a human and a human being, or even if there is any. Science cannot tell us what a human being even is, or why it should be protected over all things.

I just subconsciously scratched my arm, slaughtering at least 100 skin cells that were undeniably human. However, I assure you, no human beings were harmed in the making of this post.

So, is a zygote a human being? Science cannot tell us that. Is a fetus a human being when it begins to have nervous tissue? When it has it’s first heartbeat? When it makes it’s first fist? Science cannot tell us any of this.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that we must act as if person-hood begins at conception, not because we know objectively, but because it is too big a risk of killing a person versus any possible good that can come from terminating the pregnancy.

Rape, however, is an interesting issue, though not for the reasons you state. The Catholic Church teaches that it is not immoral for a woman to use contraception if she is raped, as long as it is not abortion. This served as a head-scratcher for me, because all contraception methods that a woman has control over possibly work as aborficants. If anyone could explain this to me, I’d be glad to hear why.
 
This thread has been dormant for a considerable period. With rare exceptions, reviving threads after a protracted period of inactivity is discouraged because:
Code:
the issues that spurred them are often no longer "hot" or current topics, explaining why thread activity ceased originally.
posters originally involved in the discussion are sometimes no longer active on the forum and, therefore, unavailable to reply to comments added to the thread.
Our experience suggests that, when a topic merits revival, it is best accomplished by initiating a new thread that draws on recent events and can be posted to contemporaneously. This eliminates the baggage of folks being frustrated by asking and not receiving responses to issues raised in early posts (because the new poster didn’t notice that the post he was responding to was made a long time ago).

Posters are very welcome to open a new thread on the subject or any other topic, as well as to actively participate in the myriad active threads in the fora.

Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top