Abortion is wrong but not contraceptives?

[Warrior1979]

The truth is not an opinion, view, prejudice, wish, desire. We’ve had more than enough of such feelings here. As we’ve seen, the truth of the development of science is only because of the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and that this has not and cannot be refuted.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when I read stuff like this. Many great discoveries of the West were old news in the East, often by centuries and sometimes by millenia. Take my advice and stick with faith-related issues.

 

[Nate13]

The topic of this whole thread is,“Aborition IS WRONG but NOT contraceptives?” So are you suggesting that contraception (not starting a life) is KILLING a life? If so what scripture are you going for here??

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 1:5

God knows us before we are even born.

 

[ahs]

Species extinct since 1800:

1950= 5,000 species
1960= 7,000 "
1970= 9,000 "
1980= 12,500 "
1990= 18,000 "
2000= 26,000 "
2010= 37,000 "

main cause = habitat loss due to human population growth.

source = www.whole-systems.org/extinctions.html

I see the point you want to make about species going extinct and all, but what does that really mean for humans? God created the world for man. And He created animals to be at the service of man…not the other way around. It is man that He commanded to subdue and rule over the earth. He also commanded man to be fruitful and multiply. He did not give any such order to the animals, nor did He tell man to be considerate or mindful of the animals while we performed His commands.

If we focus efforts to purposefully neglect the command given by God, to be fruitful and multiply and to subdue and rule the earth, as we try to save animals species from extinction, we are setting up animals as our master and serving animals at the expense of serving God.

Yes, many species have gone extinct, and many more will in the future. At the same time, other species will flourish…those better suited to live with man in a world made for man.

 

[manualman]

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when I read stuff like this. Many great discoveries of the West were old news in the East, often by centuries and sometimes by millenia. Take my advice and stick with faith-related issues.

Condescending a bit? Take a step back and have a look at the objective facts, including those you’ve brought to the table:

1. Humans have an inquisitory nature. We seeks to learn and understand what surrounds us. We also have an innate sense of there being a supernatural world beyond our mere senses (virtually all cultures, however isolated, hold religious beliefs about the supernatural.
2. Due to that ability to reason, ALL cultures have made discoveries and managed to put the level of understanding they have achieved to work creating benefits for themselves and their communities.
3. As you noted, China the Egyptians and the Mayans all had impressively advanced civilizations long before christianity came along (even during periods when Judaism would have seemed an insignificant spec on the world cultural stage).
4. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, Western civilization regressed for a period of centuries while other Eastern cultures flourished
5. In spite of well documented other cultures holding a significant head start, Western civilization surged forward and utterly dwarfed the achievements of every other culture of the history of Earth in a period of just 700 years or so. Arguably, other cultures have matched us in art, music and philosophy, but nothing touches Western Civ for scientific achievements.

Do you assert that this is random chance, or is there perhaps a seed within the christian vision of God as a rational being in whose image we are created that has been responsible for Western man’s insatiable drive to understand and learn how the world works? Are you aware that in Islam, Allah is considered to be inscrutable and it is seen to be folly to attempt to understand how He interacts with creation? Could this not well explain how muslims inherited the great wealth of Greco Roman intellectual tradition and still somehow got overtaken by a bunch of hillbilly barbarians just a few centuries after the tide of Islam had seemed unstoppable? Could the lack of the vision of a personal, rational God in Buddhism party explain why China, in spite of having gunpowder long before the West did, got shellacked in innovating the industrial revolution (only now catching up largely through imitation rather than home grown innovation)?

This is relevant to the original topic in that this tradition in the West of seeing God as a rational being whose rationality can be recognized in the order of creation, is precisely why catholicism still insists (as all christians did before 80 years ago) that contraception is a radical disruption of the nature of human sexuality, the effects of which will be devastating. We’re fools to abandon the very genius and insight that caused Western Civilization to leapfrog over the many cultures that had a long head start on us.

 

[Warrior1979]

1. In spite of well documented other cultures holding a significant head start, Western civilization surged forward and utterly dwarfed the achievements of every other culture of the history of Earth in a period of just 700 years or so. Arguably, other cultures have matched us in art, music and philosophy, but nothing touches Western Civ for scientific achievements.

First, 700 years is not a majority of human history. It isn’t a majority of the time since Christ’s death to the present. IMHO, that time frame should be shortened to the past 150 years or so.

Do you assert that this is random chance, or is there perhaps a seed within the christian vision of God as a rational being in whose image we are created that has been responsible for Western man’s insatiable drive to understand and learn how the world works? Are you aware that in Islam, Allah is considered to be inscrutable and it is seen to be folly to attempt to understand how He interacts with creation? Could this not well explain how muslims inherited the great wealth of Greco Roman intellectual tradition and still somehow got overtaken by a bunch of hillbilly barbarians just a few centuries after the tide of Islam had seemed unstoppable? Could the lack of the vision of a personal, rational God in Buddhism party explain why China, in spite of having gunpowder long before the West did, got shellacked in innovating the industrial revolution (only now catching up largely through imitation rather than home grown innovation)?

Cultures grow, peak, and decline. The west appears to be approaching the decline period, whereas countries like China are in the growth period.

FWIW, people steal all the time. Where do you think the West got their world maps from when the decided to start exploring the “New” World.

 

[Abu]

Note well: In Science and Creation Father Stanley Jaki lists seven great cultures in which science suffered a “stillbirth” – Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya – they did not have the Catholic conception of the divine. (Post #71).

Yet without a skerrick of evidence we have from the fantasy of mere prejudice, feeling, desire, wants, opinion, wishes – very unscientific and unhistorical.

Warrior1979
Many great discoveries of the West were old news in the East, often by centuries and sometimes by millenia

That is precisely why, lacking both faith and reason, we have today the wasted years of embryonic stem cell research, killing human beings to achieve zilch, while Catholic orientation based on faith and reason has produced multitudinous cures for multitudinous major ailments through somatic stem cell research and treatment based on the sacredness of human life, faith and reason.

The same catastrophic results have come from the pursuit of contraception and abortion, due to a paucity of faith and reason, while Catholics developed Natural Birth Regulation through faith reason and medical science.

Even Alfred North Whitehead, F.R.S., who rejected the notion of a perfect and omnipotent God [alfrednorthwhitehead.wwwhubs.com/]](http://alfrednorthwhitehead.wwwhubs.com/]), knew that Catholic theology was essential for the rise of science in the West, while stifled elsewhere. He explained: “The greatest contribution of medievalism to the scientific movement [was] the inexpugnable belief that …there is a secret, a secret which can be unveiled. How has this conviction been so vividly implanted in the European mind?..It must come from the medieval insistence on the rationality of God, conceived with the personal energy of Jehovah and with the rationality of a Greek philosopher. Every detail was supervised and ordered: the search into nature could only result in the vindication of the faith in rationality.” [E.L. Jones, 1987; *The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 22-23, p 15].

Whitehead ended with the remark that the images of God found in other religions, especially in Asia, are too impersonal or too irrational to have sustained science. A God who is capricious or unknowable gives no incentive for humans to dig deeply into his essence. Moreover, most non-Christian religions don’t posit a creation. If the universe is without beginning or purpose, has no Creator, is an inconsistent, unpredictable, and arbitrary mystery, there is little reason to explore it. Under those religious premises, the path to wisdom is through meditation and mystical insights, and there is no occasion to celebrate reason.

The worsening in reason and faith is the obvious result of the relativism and secularism following the revolt and so-called Enlightenment – that anything goes.

 

[Warrior1979]

Note well: In Science and Creation Father Stanley Jaki lists seven great cultures in which science suffered a “stillbirth” – Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya – they did not have the Catholic conception of the divine. (Post #71).

I wouldn’t considered a Catholic priest to be an unbiased source of information.

Futhermore, Western civilization not only suffered a stillbirth, it suffered a decline, before reversing itself. Another decline is inevitable.

Yet without a skerrick of evidence we have from the fantasy of mere prejudice, feeling, desire, wants, opinion, wishes – very unscientific and unhistorical.

You’re kidding…right?

And we’re supposed to believe your assertations with not a shred of evidence?

Civilizations always go in cycles, and the West is no exception. You might have an argument if the West went on an upward trajectory since Christ. However, it followed that same cycle as any other civilization, so that argument objectively falls flat, regardless of the obfuscating and spin you wish to put upon it.

The same catastrophic results have come from the pursuit of contraception and abortion, due to a paucity of faith and reason, while Catholics developed Natural Birth Regulation through faith reason and medical science.

You forgot to mention that the time when China encouraged woman to have as many children as possible was a time of stagnation.

 

[Abu]

Facing Reality
For those who maybe confused by the shallowness of the prejudices of Warrior1979,
The New York Times (nytimes.com/2009/04/13/nyregion/13jaki.html) recorded the death of the distinguished priest, philosopher and theologian “The Rev. Stanley L. Jaki, Physicist and Theologian, Dies at 84” (April 12, 2009).

Fr Jaki gained doctorates in theology from the Pontifical Institute in Rome (1950), and in physics from Fordham University (1958), where he studied under the Nobel laureate Victor Hess, the co-discoverer of cosmic rays. He also did post-doctoral research in Philosophy of Science at Stanford University, UC Berkeley, Princeton University and Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton.

Father Jaki authored more than two dozen books on the relation between modern science and orthodox Christianity. He was Fremantle Lecturer at Balliol College, Oxford (1977), Hoyt Fellow at Yale University (1980) and Farmington Institute Lecturer at Oxford University (1988–1989). He was the Gifford Lecturer at Edinburgh University in 1974-75 and 1975-76. In 1987, he was awarded the Templeton Prize for furthering understanding of science and religion.

The erudite contribution of this priest, theologian, physicist and philosopher of science
as to the seven great cultures in which science suffered a stillbirth is inanely described by the poster as “I wouldn’t considered a Catholic priest to be an unbiased source of information.” A fitting reminder that the petard of prejudice on which he is hoist is unable to distinguish fact from fiction, to appreciate real scholarship, nor produce any evidence to the contrary.

Readers can find the facts on *How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *in the book of that title by Dr Thomas E Woods, Regnery, 2005.

 

[Warrior1979]

Facing Reality
For those who maybe confused by the shallowness of the prejudices of Warrior1979,

In case some anyone is confused by the utter and obstinant biased xenophobic ignorance of Abu:

A respected Catholic priest faithful to his religion WILL NOT, EVER conclude anything contrary to Catholic dogma. Hence bias. If one assumes something to be true at the outset, even if it is true, it encourages sloppiness since the conclusion is predetermined.

The New York Times (nytimes.com/2009/04/13/nyregion/13jaki.html) recorded the death of the distinguished priest, philosopher and theologian “The Rev. Stanley L. Jaki, Physicist and Theologian, Dies at 84” (April 12, 2009).

Fr Jaki gained doctorates in theology from the Pontifical Institute in Rome (1950), and in physics from Fordham University (1958), where he studied under the Nobel laureate Victor Hess, the co-discoverer of cosmic rays. He also did post-doctoral research in Philosophy of Science at Stanford University, UC Berkeley, Princeton University and Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton.

Father Jaki authored more than two dozen books on the relation between modern science and orthodox Christianity. He was Fremantle Lecturer at Balliol College, Oxford (1977), Hoyt Fellow at Yale University (1980) and Farmington Institute Lecturer at Oxford University (1988–1989). He was the Gifford Lecturer at Edinburgh University in 1974-75 and 1975-76. In 1987, he was awarded the Templeton Prize for furthering understanding of science and religion.

So far I see only accolades. They mean nothing in and of themself.

The erudite contribution of this priest, theologian, physicist and philosopher of science as to the seven great cultures in which science suffered a stillbirth is inanely described by the poster as “I wouldn’t considered a Catholic priest to be an unbiased source of information.” A fitting reminder that the petard of prejudice on which he is hoist is unable to distinguish fact from fiction, to appreciate real scholarship, nor produce any evidence to the contrary.

FWIW, I am a physics, computer engineering, and engineering science grad.

All you’ve done is make a “stillbirth” statement. What you are claiming is objectively and obvious false, and typical of xenophobic pride.

Readers can find the facts on *How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *in the book of that title by Dr Thomas E Woods, Regnery, 2005.

When it comes to the building Western Civilization, don’t forget about the Protestants, who in many cases had much greater influence than the Catholics (obvious to any American). When it comes to science, Jews also have a very tremendous influence. Any physicist would know that…even a Catholic one.

 

[manualman]

Ah, got it. Any authority or source that is catholic is instantly dismissible as biased shilling, while any source critical of the Church is unbiased and trustworthy.

Protestants are inheritors of the vast majority of the catholic intellectual tradition, so it’s no surprise that they’ve made enormous contributions to modern science as well. Unfortunately, they’ve introduced distortions as well that arguably are the driver behind today’s extreme consumerism, but that’s another thread, isn’t it?

Judaism has been present all along providing valuable outside critique, (name removed by moderator)ut and no small measure of brilliant and well educated participants in the proces. Judaism, like catholicism is compatible with the idea that God is the source of reason and rationality in the universe. They share that major aspect that has been the tap root of Western Civilization as compared to the other civilizations in which science was stunted, at best because God was viewed as either inscrutable or entirely beyond human comprehension.

 

[Warrior1979]

Ah, got it. Any authority or source that is catholic is instantly dismissible as biased shilling, while any source critical of the Church is unbiased and trustworthy.

The opinion of any “authority” that has to watch what he says lest he get reprimanded must be taken with a grain of salt. It has nothing to do with this priest either. The same goes for scientists living under various non-Catholic religious and political regimes.

Protestants are inheritors of the vast majority of the catholic intellectual tradition, so it’s no surprise that they’ve made enormous contributions to modern science as well. Unfortunately, they’ve introduced distortions as well that arguably are the driver behind today’s extreme consumerism, but that’s another thread, isn’t it?

Catholics are part of that extreme consumerism also, as are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, etc.

Judaism has been present all along providing valuable outside critique, (name removed by moderator)ut and no small measure of brilliant and well educated participants in the proces. Judaism, like catholicism is compatible with the idea that God is the source of reason and rationality in the universe. They share that major aspect that has been the tap root of Western Civilization as compared to the other civilizations in which science was stunted, at best because God was viewed as either inscrutable or entirely beyond human comprehension.

This is the “What have you done for me lately” perspective.

 

[Warrior1979]

Ah, got it. Any authority or source that is catholic is instantly dismissible as biased shilling, while any source critical of the Church is unbiased and trustworthy.

I should also add that anyone that cannot see this potential conflict cannot objectively analyze the data and conclusions.

 

[Nate13]

I should also add that anyone that cannot see this potential conflict cannot objectively analyze the data and conclusions.

Haha I would always start with the Catholic source and use that as a starting point. Then find outside sources to compare the important points that seemed fishy. You have to start somewhere so why not a Catholic source?

Also I’m sure you noticed the priests accolades are much more rounded than your own. With your accolades I could only assume you would come at it from the pure perspective of an engineering mind.

The priest on the other hand has his head in theology, physics, philosophy, and is a priest and probably has higher degrees in most of them. I would trust his well rounded education over yours any day.

 

[choose_to_love]

@warrior:

Regardless of the messenger, are you addressing the argument raised by Abu and manualman that there is something in the Catholic outlook on God and His relationship to the natural world that fosters an interest in science that is not present in other cultures? It seems to me you are not, as merely noting that civilizations go through rise-decline cycles does not seem to address the substatnce of their position, and would also seem to unnecessarily conflate proficiency in science with the rise or ascendancy of a civilization. I think you would agree many other factors would go into the decline phase of a civilization.

Or, are you stating that the position is not developed enough in the thread to discuss?

 

[Warrior1979]

@warrior:

Regardless of the messenger, are you addressing the argument raised by Abu and manualman that there is something in the Catholic outlook on God and His relationship to the natural world that fosters an interest in science that is not present in other cultures?

I don’t particularly care for the wording of the question, because man’s nature is inquisitive. Such an interest exists in all cultures.

But I do understand the point. When people are focused more on God and the Afterlife, they are less inclined to focus on the here and now, and the world around them. Naturally, there are those they will advance society regardless. However, if it’s not the focus of society in general, society advances more slowly. That seems plausible given the stagnation in western culture for post-Christ, especially compared to other old and advanced cultures.

Or, are you stating that the position is not developed enough in the thread to discuss?

There really isn’t enough to discuss. Abu’s made some assertations and cut-and-paste statements, but that’s about it.

 

[Warrior1979]

Haha I would always start with the Catholic source and use that as a starting point. Then find outside sources to compare the important points that seemed fishy. You have to start somewhere so why not a Catholic source?

No problem there. Start wherever you want, and go from there. Just keep everything in its proper perspective.

For example, reading Shakespeare will give a perspective of life in his time frame. However, you’ll only get part of it, because his plays kept a certain societal order, lest he end up on the chopping block. You’ll have to go elsewhere to get the rest of the story.

Also I’m sure you noticed the priests accolades are much more rounded than your own. With your accolades I could only assume you would come at it from the pure perspective of an engineering mind.

I’m not stating that my accolades are better than anyone’s else’s. I will say, though, that accolades are only useful in the context of the rest of one’s practice. As a personal example, the last time I testified in court as an expert witness, the expert on the other side had 3x the experience I had (almost 60 years worth), and pages and pages of awards, chairmanships, etc. To bad he lost the case for his side…so much for accolades.

The priest on the other hand has his head in theology, physics, philosophy, and is a priest and probably has higher degrees in most of them. I would trust his well rounded education over yours any day.

Be my guest. However, his just one scientist, and one that has a Pontiff looking over his back. It has to be measured against other data and research.

 

[LittleDavid]

The truth is not an opinion, view, prejudice, wish, desire. We’ve had more than enough of such feelings here. As we’ve seen, the truth of the development of science is only because of the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and that this has not and cannot be refuted.
This is a good example of not realising that it is only because of the Catholic Church that we have the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God, and that She interprets what She has given us as She has the mandate from Christ to teach all nations.

BTW God killed Onan because of contraception.(Gen. 38: 9-10)

BTW God commanded to stone rebellious children to death.(Deut.21:18…)

BTW God killed Isaelites in the wilderness for “complaining”.(Numbers 11:1…)

What other Old Testament Laws do Catholics see as binding on Christians today besides the Onan example? …Hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving!

 

[manualman]

BTW God commanded to stone rebellious children to death.(Deut.21:18…)

BTW God killed Isaelites in the wilderness for “complaining”.(Numbers 11:1…)

What other Old Testament Laws do Catholics see as binding on Christians today besides the Onan example?

Easy answer. The Old Testament included both universal moral revelation in which God revealed portion of his character to man and the Mosaic Law in which God instructed Israel on the means of which she was to live as a people set apart from the rest of the world, to foster her role of being a light TO the world (culminating in Messiah).

Saints Peter and Paul both preached clearly that with the coming of Christ and the giving of the Great Commission, the time of Israel being a people set wholly apart had come to a close and the time was now one to go forth and spread the Good News of Christ. Therefore, the strictly Mosaic portion of the Old Testament became moot points (restrictions on eating pork, lighting lamps on Sabbath, etc), but the potion of revelation which dealt with the character of God reflected in the nature of man can never and will never change.

Thus, it is still a sin to be ungrateful for our blessings and complainers about what we DON’T have, it is still a sin for children to not honor their parents, it is still a sin to misuse the gift of human sexuality. It is no longer a necessary part of the process of revelation for God to actively ‘smite’ those committing these sins. The point has been made that those who commit them, smite themselves in the end!

 

[Nate13]

BTW God commanded to stone rebellious children to death.(Deut.21:18…)

BTW God killed Isaelites in the wilderness for “complaining”.(Numbers 11:1…)

What other Old Testament Laws do Catholics see as binding on Christians today besides the Onan example? …Hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving!

So did you cut the Old Testament out of your Bible yet? Seems you think it to all be pretty worthless. Your line of thinking seems to be “if some things don’t apply the same way anymore from the Old Testament, none of it applies”. The question you should be asking is how do we know what is still binding and what was tradition/culture? My answer is the Church. What is yours?

 

[Abu]

The shallowness of Warrior1979 is exemplified by his “Abu’s made some assertations (sic) and cut-and-paste statements, but that’s about it.”

The “assertions” are quotations from relevant authorities; it’s what conscientious people do to backup their arguments – their case. But some just don’t know how to demonstrate fact from fiction and can only express their own prejudices – in Warrior1979, of enormous dimensions.

Another example of the reliability of the Catholic teaching on the sanctity of life and of the value of faith and reason in the Catholic development of science in the development of civilization is seen below.

Mainstream Media Recognizes Adult Stem Cell Research Far Ahead Of Embryonic
WASHINGTON, DC, August 3, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com)
By Thaddeus M. Baklinski
Earlier this year California’s Institute for Regenerative Medicine quietly changed its focus, after years of fruitless work and the expenditure of billions of dollars, from embryonic stem cell research to adult stem cell research. The institute cited adult stem cell treatment as responsible for dozens of positive results and all-out cures for maladies ranging from spinal cord injury, to Alzheimer’s, to type I diabetes.
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/aug/10080304.html

See: tinyurl.com/8axwupn
All the news that’s fit to forget: Why you’re not hearing much about embryonic stem cells these days
by Wesley J. Smith
Mon Nov 21, 2011

The Protestant Revolt and the Age of “Enlightenment” have produced the relativism and secularism resulting in the contraceptive and abortive mentalities that have resulted in the birth dearth engulfing the West.