Abortion is wrong but not contraceptives?

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The shallowness of Warrior1979 is exemplified by his “Abu’s made some assertations (sic) and cut-and-paste statements, but that’s about it.”

The “assertions” are quotations from relevant authorities; it’s what conscientious people do to backup their arguments – their case. But some just don’t know how to demonstrate fact from fiction and can only express their own prejudices – in Warrior1979, of enormous dimensions.
We can all play this game, and we don’t have to use biased sources to do so.
Another example of the reliability of the Catholic teaching on the sanctity of life and of the value of faith and reason in the Catholic development of science in the development of civilization is seen below.
Mainstream Media Recognizes Adult Stem Cell Research Far Ahead Of Embryonic
WASHINGTON, DC, August 3, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com)
By Thaddeus M. Baklinski

Earlier this year California’s Institute for Regenerative Medicine quietly changed its focus, after years of fruitless work and the expenditure of billions of dollars, from embryonic stem cell research to adult stem cell research. The institute cited adult stem cell treatment as responsible for dozens of positive results and all-out cures for maladies ranging from spinal cord injury, to Alzheimer’s, to type I diabetes.
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/aug/10080304.html
As I’m sure you are aware, due to your extensive studying and knowledge on the matter, embryonic and adult stem cells are not the same thing. Chromosonal damage occurs with the aging process, include adult stem cells. Random example:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3001309/

The basic concept also explains the problems with cloning adult animals, complete with DNA damage.

FWIW, I am not in favor of using aborted fetuses in research. I am also very leery of tampering with the human body in any type of genetic manner.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the reputed “stillbirth” of the West.
The Protestant Revolt and the Age of “Enlightenment” have produced the relativism and secularism resulting in the contraceptive and abortive mentalities that have resulted in the birth dearth engulfing the West.
Nature has also caused a “birth dearth” in various PTGs, and various isolated societies with limited land areas and resources. For the millionth time, “birth dearths” are only significant in unsustainable societies, such as what you see in the West.
 
When Aristotle’s erroneous assumptions were cast aside, as historians Pierre Duhem, A.C. Crombie and Edward Grant have argued, the condemnations by the Bishop of Paris in 1277 forced thinkers to break out of the intellectual confinement of Aristotelian presuppositions, from the restrictions of Aristotelian science and to adopt new thinking to the physical world. While Fr Jaki states that the Greeks came closest to the development of modern science, they still fell very short.

Aristotle had denied the possibility of a vacuum, and the condemnations “seem definitely to have promoted a freer and more imaginative way of doing science.” (Dales, The De-Animation of the Heavens in the Middle Ages, p 550).

Another condemned Aristotelian proposition was that “the motions of the motion of the sky result from an intellectual soul,” and prompted new approaches to the central question of the behaviour of the heavenly bodies.
(How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Thomas E Woods Jr., Regnery Publishing, 2005, p 75).

As for the Arabs, while their translations of ancient Greek classics led to their dissemination in the Western world in the twelfth century, a profound development for Western intellectual history, any contributions of Muslim scientists “typically occurred in spite of Islam rather than because of it. Orthodox Islamic scholars absolutely rejected any conception of the universe that involved consistent physical laws, because the absolute autonomy of Allah could not be restricted by natural laws. Apparent natural laws were nothing more than mere habits, so to speak, of Allah, and might be discontinued at any time.” (How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Dr Thomas E Woods, Regnery, 2005, p 79)

Even Friedrich Nietzsche (‘God is dead’) wrote: “Strictly speaking there is no such thing as science ‘without any presuppositions’… a philosophy, a ‘faith’, must always be there first, so that science can acquire a direction, a meaning, a limit, a method, a right to exist… It is still a metaphysical faith that underlines our faith in science.” (Genealogy of Morals III, 23-24).

“The earlier technical innovations of Greco-Roman times, of Islam, of imperial China, let alone those of pre-historic times, do not constitute science and are better described as lore, skills, wisdom, techniques, crafts, technologies, engineering, learning, or simply knowledge.” (For the Glory of God, Rodney Stark, Princeton University Press, 2003, p 125).

“First of all, classical learning did not provide an appropriate model for science. Second, the rise of science was already far along by the sixteenth century, having been carefully nurtured by religiously devout scholastics. Granted, the era of scientific discovery that occurred in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was marvelous, the cultural equivalent of the blossoming of a rose. But, just as roses do not spring up overnight, and must undergo a long period of normal growth before they even bud, so too the blossoming of science was the result of centuries of intellectual progress.” catholicleague.org/research/catholicism_and_science.htm, *Catholicism and Science *by Rodney Stark (from Catalyst 9/2004)].

rtforum.org/lt/lt123.html
Anthony Rizzi, in *The Science Before Science *(Baton Rouge, LA: IAP Press, 2004, reviewed by Msgr John F. McCarthy:
“The progress achieved during the ‘Dark Ages’ was not merely technological. Medieval Europe excelled in philosophy and science. The term ‘Scientific Revolution’ is in many ways as misleading as ‘Dark Ages.’ Both were coined to discredit the medieval Church. The notion of a ‘Scientific Revolution’ has been used to claim that science suddenly burst forth when a weakened Christianity could no longer prevent it, and as the recovery of classical learning made it possible. Both claims are as false as those concerning Columbus and the flat earth.”

With the flowering of faith and reason through the Catholic Church, the foundations were built for the development of science and the moral use of medicine resulting in the great advances in somatic stem cell therapy and the right use of NBR. The restoration of the place of the family will result in a reversal of the birth dearth.
 
When Aristotle’s erroneous assumptions were cast aside, as historians Pierre Duhem, A.C. Crombie and Edward Grant have argued, the condemnations by the Bishop of Paris in 1277 forced thinkers to break out of the intellectual confinement of Aristotelian presuppositions, from the restrictions of Aristotelian science and to adopt new thinking to the physical world. While Fr Jaki states that the Greeks came closest to the development of modern science, they still fell very short.
Twelve centuries after the death of Christ? Hmmmmm…

Interestingly enough, modern science has a whole lot in common with ancient Chinese philosophy. It’s actually amazing given the complete lack of modern scientific equipment. It only took the West a few millenia to catch up.
With the flowering of faith and reason through the Catholic Church, the foundations were built for the development of science and the moral use of medicine resulting in the great advances in somatic stem cell therapy and the right use of NBR. The restoration of the place of the family will result in a reversal of the birth dearth.
The necessity to have an ever-expanding human population is an artificial standard that you seem to have an obsession with. It is not necessary for the continuation of the human species.
 
FWIW, one of the major problems was, and still is, a problem with modern Western science is the lack of seeing the oneness of our reality. The problem exists to a lesser extent today simply because of having no other choice, as in making sense of quantum physics. However, it still exists in a big way in, say, modern medicine, where much is focused on treating symptoms rather than seeking to restore balance in the organism.

This problem doesn’t exist in many Asian cultures, where everything is interrelated. I believe that over the course of the next century there are going to be significant scientific advances coming out of the East because of this, especially because the Chinese are starting to break through their historic isolation and start competing with the rest of the world.
 
Rodney Stark emphasises that “The falsehood that science required the defeat of religion was proclaimed by self-appointed cheerleaders like Voltaire, Diderot, and Gibbon, who themselves played no part in the scientific enterprise—a pattern that continues today.”

We’ve seen the failure of the Greeks and the Arabs, the Chinese were in a similar boat. Why? They did not have the faith and reason of Catholic theology.

“When the Jesuits went to China they were amazed at the Asians lack of progress in their understanding of the world. Some Muslims did make some progress in their discoveries, however it must be remembered that these people had been Christian centuries earlier before Mohammed came along in the 6th century. And so, they had been influenced by the Christian perception of the world.

“In the first few centuries it was illegal to be a Christian. Once it was legalized, and the Church was able to fight off the invasions of the Visigoths, Vandals, and other Barbarians and was able to establish peace they were able to establish a Catholic culture.

“And so, this culture was able to start the university system around 1200 AD and was able to effectively pass on what was learned to successive generations.

“Some of the most important universities were founded by the Popes. They are located in Rome, Pisa, Ferrara, Toulouse, Valladolid, Heidelberg, Cologne, and Erfurt. Many of the other universities which are likewise quite old were begun by the combined efforts of both Popes and princes. They are the Universities of Coimbra, Florence, Prague, Vienna, Cracow, Alcalá, Upsala, Louvain, Leipzig, Rostock, and Tübingen, not to mention many others."

It’s most interesting that Fr. Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest, was the first scientist to propose what we now call the Big Bang Theory. At first, Albert Einstein told him, “Your calculations are correct, but your grasp of physics is abominable.” Later, after Fr. Georges Lemaitre gave a seminar on his new theory Einstein stood up applauded, and said, “This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation of creation to which I have ever listened.”
defendingthebride.com/code/sci.html

Paul Ehrlich’s rant that “In the 1970’s and 1980’s hundreds of millions will starve to death” exemplifies the unscientific nature of the claptrap in favour of abortion and contraception, with the birth dearth, along with the economic malfunctioning and extravagances of governments for decades, heralding the era of stagnation as the rapidly increasing number of aged is impacted by the dwindling number of producers.
 
“When the Jesuits went to China they were amazed at the Asians lack of progress in their understanding of the world.
This is just an outright and objective falsehood. The real issue is that China “lack progress in their understanding of the world solely because they don’t see the world as the Jesuits understand the world.” It’s the “you don’t see the world my way, thus you are wrong attitude.” In other words, pure bias.

One of the things that has always bothered me about certain religious groups, Christians in particular, is that the don’t really understand the way the world functions around them. They’ll talk about the interactively of “unitive and procreative” nature of sex, which displays and understanding of the interactivity of a natural act. Yet they tell you to have babies until you drop dead from exhaustion, with no consideration of whether the environment can handle the situation. Other cultures don’t show this level of ignorance. Chinese culture generally is focused on the here and now, which is why they understand the world around them. Christian culture is focused on the hereafter, which is why they don’t care about or understand the interactivity of the world around them.

Your statement is flat out preposterous.
Paul Ehrlich’s rant that “In the 1970’s and 1980’s hundreds of millions will starve to death” exemplifies the unscientific nature of the claptrap in favour of abortion and contraception, with the birth dearth, along with the economic malfunctioning and extravagances of governments for decades, heralding the era of stagnation as the rapidly increasing number of aged is impacted by the dwindling number of producers.
Catholics like to use the abortion and contraception arguments as an excuse for everything. However, nature will take its course regardless of how much the way God designed the environment and our intelligence to understand is ignored.
 
…They’ll talk about the interactively of “unitive and procreative” nature of sex, which displays and understanding of the interactivity of a natural act. Yet they tell you to have babies until you drop dead from exhaustion, with no consideration of whether the environment can handle the situation.

Your statement is flat out preposterous.
You’re calling HIS statement preposterous? Pot, meet kettle.

Warrior, your mischaracterizations of catholic teaching are so grotesquely dishonest that I have a hard time believing you are actually catholic. You seriously think this is what the Church teaches? Have you listened at all? Did you not notice when I pointed out that LONG before the cultural embrace of contraception, humans have been able to regulate their fertility through noticing their fertile symptoms and making behavior decisions accordingly? Widespread modern contraception came about starting in the 1930’s. Well off urbanites in the West have generally had 2-3 child families for centuries before that. Large families tend to be rural, poor and immigrant phenomenons. Stable political systems, education, efficient agriculture and healthy urban communities are the answer to population imbalances compatible with human nature. Contraception simply creates radical depopulation in the urban communities and diverts needed resources from bringing the civilizational resources poor rural communities actually need. Instead of resolving global population problems, it creates more problems by generating massive cultural unrest and migration demand while ignoring the underlying problem.
 
You’re calling HIS statement preposterous? Pot, meet kettle.

Warrior, your mischaracterizations of catholic teaching are so grotesquely dishonest that I have a hard time believing you are actually catholic. You seriously think this is what the Church teaches? Have you listened at all?..
Thank you!

Warrior1979, the actual teachings of the Church have been presented over and over and over…in the words of the lay persons posting in these threads, in the words of the Popes, the early Church Fathers, the Maegesterium, directly from the Catechism…in MANY threads, many of which you have participated in… Never has the Church taught what you accuse, *"…Yet they tell you to have babies until you drop dead from exhaustion, with no consideration of whether the environment can handle the situation." * The fact that you still see the Church Teaching as you have described it shows that you have zero interest in knowing the Truth, and still no idea what the Church actually teaches.
 
This is just an outright and objective falsehood. The real issue is that China “lack progress in their understanding of the world solely because they don’t see the world as the Jesuits understand the world.” It’s the “you don’t see the world my way, thus you are wrong attitude.” In other words, pure bias.

One of the things that has always bothered me about certain religious groups, Christians in particular, is that the don’t really understand the way the world functions around them. They’ll talk about the interactively of “unitive and procreative” nature of sex, which displays and understanding of the interactivity of a natural act. Yet they tell you to have babies until you drop dead from exhaustion, with no consideration of whether the environment can handle the situation. Other cultures don’t show this level of ignorance. Chinese culture generally is focused on the here and now, which is why they understand the world around them. Christian culture is focused on the hereafter, which is why they don’t care about or understand the interactivity of the world around them.

Your statement is flat out preposterous.

Catholics like to use the abortion and contraception arguments as an excuse for everything. However, nature will take its course regardless of how much the way God designed the environment and our intelligence to understand is ignored.
To use your own words:

“This is just an outright and objective falsehood” and “Your statement is flat out preposterous.”

…and I will add mine:

Show me one reference, just a single one, that supports your laughably-ignorant-of-Church-teaching statement:

“Yet (Christians) tell you to have babies until you drop dead from exhaustion, with no consideration of whether the environment can handle the situation”

This is perhaps the most (and I say this in the most charitable way possible) ignorant (uninformed, not “stupid” ;)) comment I’ve ever read on this forum.

(Sorry, ahs, I’m sort of repeating your post.)
 
I have a retraction, actually. I shouldn’t express doubt about anyone’s faith affiliation. That was out of line of me. I still find the post to be logically untenable, but that doesn’t make it right for me to challenge Warrior’s actual catholicism.

Mea Culpa. I think I’ll bow out of this discussion until I can recover my charitable response capability.
 
It’s amazing how people will argue “birth dearth” and then discuss not having as many babies as possible all in the same breath.
Show me one reference, just a single one, that supports your laughably-ignorant-of-Church-teaching statement:
Show me where I stated this was a Church teaching.
“Yet (Christians) tell you to have babies until you drop dead from exhaustion, with no consideration of whether the environment can handle the situation”
Furthermore, what I stated is OBVIOUSLY not a reference to a Church teaching, because it doesn’t even specifically refer to Catholics.
This is perhaps the most (and I say this in the most charitable way possible) ignorant (uninformed, not “stupid” ) comment I’ve ever read on this forum.
Here’s something that is also put forth in a charitable way possible. A lot of people on this forum having reading comprehension problem. IMHO, it is due to having preconceived notions; reading what you want to read and not what is actually in front of you.
 
I have a retraction, actually. I shouldn’t express doubt about anyone’s faith affiliation. That was out of line of me.
Of course it was. It’s typical of people that respond on emotion rather than intellect.
 
Thank you!
You’re Welcome!🙂
Warrior1979, the actual teachings of the Church
Where did I reference the Church teachings?🤷

I am referring to the explicit and/or implicit consequences of the words and writings of those on this forum. You can’t be vehemently against “birth dearth” then vehemently argue against someone stating that population increase has it’s consequences.
The fact that you still see the Church Teaching
I did not state this was a Church teaching. Wrong…wrong…wrong…

God gave you a brain. Please use it. Engage brain before mouth
as you have described it shows that you have zero interest in knowing the Truth, and still no idea what the Church actually teaches.
Most Catholics don’t have any idea what the Church teaches, even on this matter. One of the most stunning examples of this was when I noted to a K of C member that you can’t use NFP whenever you want, but under very specific circumstances. He had no idea what I was talking about. Quit frankly, that’s a shame.
 
I prefer to spar to settle the issue, but it doesn’t work on an Internet forum.🙂
I’m still waiting for those new smile options…

On another point, are you offering to join my team where we go door to door to Catholic houses and explain the NFP teaching? Actually better idea! Lets head down to Occupy Wall St. with huge signs that explain it 😃
 
Oh, BTW, regarding this:
“When the Jesuits went to China they were amazed at the Asians lack of progress in their understanding of the world.
Matteo Ricci, SJ, who arrived at the age of 30 and spent the rest of his life in China, wrote to the Jesuit houses in Europe and called for priests - men who would not only be “good”, but also "men of talent, since we are dealing here with a people both intelligent and learned".

You could fit the entirety of Vatican City in the Forbidden City, with plenty of room to spare.🙂
 
Where did I reference the Church teachings?🤷

I am referring to the explicit and/or implicit consequences of the words and writings of those on this forum. You can’t be vehemently against “birth dearth” then vehemently argue against someone stating that population increase has it’s consequences.

I did not state this was a Church teaching. Wrong…wrong…wrong…
I see. Even though this is a Catholic forum, and we are discussing a Catholic issue within a thread that asks about the Catholic teaching on contraception (see the OP) , it was wrong of me to assume that you would be staying on-topic rather than talking about something other than the Catholic teaching on contraception that the OP asked about. I apologize.
Most Catholics don’t have any idea what the Church teaches, even on this matter. One of the most stunning examples of this was when I noted to a K of C member that you can’t use NFP whenever you want, but under very specific circumstances. He had no idea what I was talking about. Quit frankly, that’s a shame.
Indeed, it is a shame.
 
Warrior1979 #105
Catholics like to use the abortion and contraception arguments as an excuse for everything.
Thus, this poster has no rationale left!

As the Jesuits incisively noted, the Chinese failure was because, as numerous works have substantiated (by Westerners and Chinese), their conceptual frameworks hindered the development of science – their lack of belief in a transcendent Creator who endowed His creation with consistent physical laws, in turn because the conception of a divine celestial lawgiver imposing ordinances on non-human Nature never developed. Their “intelligence” did not enable them to cross that barrier.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_early_cultures
Needham and most scholars recognised that cultural factors prevented these Chinese achievements from developing into what might be considered “modern science”.
It was the religious and philosophical framework of the Chinese intellectuals which made them unable to believe in the ideas of laws of nature:
It was not that there was no order in nature for the Chinese, but rather that it was not an order ordained by a rational personal being, and hence there was no conviction that rational personal beings would be able to spell out in their lesser earthly languages the divine code of laws which he had decreed aforetime. The Taoists, indeed, would have scorned such an idea as being too naïve for the subtlety and complexity of the universe as they intuited it.

defendingthebride.com/pp/sc3/
**FATHER THOMAS D. WILLIAMS, LC *National Catholic Register *(April 6-12, 2008)].**One of the most common objections to religious belief today is its supposed incompatibility with scientific knowledge.

“Why is it that empirical science and the scientific method did not develop in China (with its sophisticated society), in India (with its philosophical schools), in Arabia (with its advanced mathematics), in Japan (with its dedicated craftsmen and technologies), or even in ancient Greece or Rome?
“The answer is fairly straightforward. Science flourished in societies where a Christian mindset understood nature to be ordered, the work of an intelligent Creator. Science grew where people assumed that the natural world is intelligible and bears the handwriting of its author.
“Far from being an obstacle to science, Christian soil was the necessary humus where science took root.
“J.L. Heilbron of the University of California-Berkeley has written:
The Roman Catholic Church gave more financial aid and social support to the study of astronomy for over six centuries, from the recovery of ancient learning during the late Middle Ages into the Enlightenment, than any other, and, probably, all other, institutions.

“What can be said of astronomy can be said equally of medicine, physics, mathematics and chemistry.”

Weakening reason and faith resulted in the Anglican capitulation in 1930 at the Lambeth Conference as, before that, 99 Protestant theologians had taught against Onanism; Martin Luther, John Wesley and John Calvin were opposed to birth control. They taught that it was very immoral. Many Protestant theologians were strongly opposed to it from the beginning of the Protestant Revolt. (Charles D Provan, The Bible and Birth Control, Zimmer printing, 1989, p 63).

The case against abortion and contraception is irrefutable based on the natural law as Fr Collaco has so eloquently explained (post #8), and the Catholic development in NBR has once again proved the commitment to reason and faith in medical science fully in accord with the natural law, as are the stupendous benefits from somatic stem cell developments.
 
To explain to an atheist friend why contraception is wrong, maybe get them to contemplate what life would be like if contraception did not exist. Just think about how relationships between the sexes would be different to how they are now. Would they be better or worse?

How would women treat their fertility?

How would fathers instruct their sons and how would they look after their daughters? How would mothers instruct their daughters?

To me the contraception and the sexual revolution destroyed the natural relationship between men and women, between parents and children.

Whenever discussing something like this, I like to contemplate how western society in particular likes to take a natural good that humans can receive pleasure from in our environment and then strip it of its context and refine it so that only the essence that stimulates the pleasure response is left. So we have products like alcohol, drugs, sugar, chocolate. Each of these can contribute to negative consequences such as drug addiction, murder, gang violence, slavery and obesity. To this you can add contraception which takes a natural good among humans and turns it into just an opportunity for pleasure. On a micro level you may not see much wrong with it but on a macro level you can picture the problems it causes society as a whole. These might include the increase costs of health care, the reduction in morality, the increase in un-planned pregnancies, the effect of so much eostrogen going into the sewrage system and into the eco-systems in our waterways. There is a lot of potential for misery at a community level even though you may be trying to save a bit of personal sufferring.

It’s also interesting that NFP is getting a bit of a run amongst non-religious “greenies” who see contraception as something that takes us away from a sustainable and natural lifestyle.

These are things that help me put contraception in context.

Points that I don’t think get regularly discussed though are these:

I think it is generally true that woman find sex more enjoyable during their fertile period. There are obvious biological reasons for this - to encourage pregnancy. This makes the tempation to use contraception greater and the desire to have sex during non-fertile periods weaker.

I think it’s pretty common opinion these days that a good Catholic man takes more enjoyment in having his wife enjoy sex than focusing on his own enjoyment. This is consistent with self-sacrifing love in the microcosm of the sexual realtionship between them. So if his wife does not enjoy having sex during the infertile period than this is a cause for concern for both of them in their relationship when using NFP.

Anyway, I say good luck to those happy, healthy couples who can both enjoy sex in their non-fertile period and are healthy enough to continue to have babies if the method doesn’t work. The rest of us aren’t so lucky but I do find it funny to hear them talk about the challenge of having to abstain over the non-fertile period but how it makes the sex more enjoyable through the abstinence. For me, a couple of weeks are a walk in the park.
 
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