Abortion lowers crime rate?

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Here is a link where you can read Levitt and Donohue’s paper from the Quarterly Journal of Economics:

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=174508#PaperDownload

 

[Chancellare]

*Though birth rates vary widely between countries, the world’s total fertility rate (the number of children per mother) has dropped from five in 1950 to 2.7 today. *-[actually current rates are below 2.7 in higher educated populations] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3072271

Another way to look at this is was 5 children per mother to much the handle? Or said better is it more difficult to raise 5 than 2? Today the number 2 is more than average. So is abortion the difference? NO, Contraception, living single, better education, etc, are all factors. It is important to realize these causes affect the rate of birth, not crime. Crime is being affected by the reduced strain on parents, schools, police by the reduced work load and expenses.

You raised a good point here. The difficulty I saw is this: authors did not show the econometric equation that could have explained the driving factors that produced the correlation. They did not show the correlation among babies who went through between “being unwanted” and “becoming a criminal”.

 

[Holly3278]

It sounds like a ridiculous assertion to me. Abortion is the ultimate crime.

 

[DL82]

I was simply stating that an economist in the book freakonomics found a decline that is parallel with abortion. We can’t say one caused the other, only that there is some relationship. This man studied the years that abortion became legal, and then found that the next generation (aborted generation) had lowered crime rates. To show this is due to abortion you look at states like Hawaii that had legal abortions for x years sooner than the others. X years later the crime rates went down.

This does not mean that if you believe it you are not prolife. The economist also states that for every ten thousand deaths via abortion (im not exactly sure of the number) there was one life spared by the prevention of crime.

This is just a figure, the numbers are not calculated by morality. Numbers don’t have a mind to say that abortion is evil.

Go read the book you will see what I am saying!

Do you know any economist that has proved this was a lie? That is simply your opinion. Mine is based on statistics, your opinion is based on ideology.

Well, there’s one obvious way that this would work:

If, before abortion was legal, there were (for example) 1000 back-room abortions going on in an average year, after it becomes legal there are 1000 fewer crimes being committed.

As for using ratios to prove causation. I would point you to technollama.blogspot.com/2007/04/piracy-rates-prove-pastafarianism.html

Is it possible that something more like this happens:
Since the 1950’s, the general welfare of the working classes improves.
This means they have more access to medical procedures, including abortion.
It also means fewer people feel they have to turn to crime to support themselves.

 

[DL82]

Is it possible that something more like this happens:
Since the 1950’s, the general welfare of the working classes improves.
This means they have more access to medical procedures, including abortion.
It also means fewer people feel they have to turn to crime to support themselves.

Or, an alternative hypothesis:
Since the 1950’s, the respect that people have for authority has been diminished, and more and more areas have become lawless, relying on gang-culture and retribution rather than the police and courts.
This liberalisation led to legalised abortion, and an increasing indifference to the plight of the pre-born and acceptance of abortion for convenience.
This also led to fewer reported crimes.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

HOW does abortion lower crime rates?

Canadian abortionist Dr Henry Morgentaler has a theory:

Abortion access has helped make society safer: Morgentaler

“Well-loved children grow into adults who do not build concentration camps, do not rape and do not murder,” said Morgentaler, 82, who himself survived a Nazi death camp. He claimed that violent crime has decreased since 1991, a trend he attributed to more abortion procedures being made available. “The most important factor is that there are fewer unwanted children, fewer children likely to be abused, brutalized or neglected … children so victimized they may grow up for a thirst for vengeance which seeks an outlet in violence,” he said.

:dts:

OK. There are a number of approaches to Morgentaler’s theory. One is simply to understand the origins of his thinking: an adaptive child part of his personality deformed by the traumatic loss of his parents. Given that problem, what form does our solution take for Morgentaler and for folks like Morgentaler?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Brendan:

Exactly, Genocide lowers the crime rate as well.

That there is a genocidal element to abortion is certainly true. In the US, African American neighbourhoods are targetted (have been targetted since the days of Margaret Sanger and her Planned Parenthood movement). In Canada, it is the First Nations.

3 out of 5 pregnant African-American women will abort their child. Since 1973 there has been over 13 million Black children killed… Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member…

The links I am about to give are unpleasant, but represent a little publicized reality for many Americans.

See comparing abortion to other forms of genocide

See the truth about Margaret Sangster

See the Negro project

Margaret… Sanger embraced Malthusian eugenics. Thomas Robert Malthus, a 19th century cleric and professor of political economy, believed a population time bomb threatened the existence of the human race. He viewed social problems such as poverty, deprivation and hunger as evidence of this “population crisis…” Malthus condemned charities and other forms of benevolence, because he believed they only exacerbated the problems…

Malthus disciples believed if Western civilization were to survive, the physically unfit, the materially poor, the spiritually diseased, the *racially inferior, *and the mentally incompetent had to be suppressed and isolated–or even, perhaps, eliminated. His disciples felt the subtler and more “scientific” approaches of education, contraception, sterilization and abortion were more “practical and acceptable ways” to ease the pressures of the alleged overpopulation…

In 1929, 10 years before Sanger created the Negro Project, the ABCL laid the groundwork for a clinic in Harlem… “established for the benefit of the colored people”… Sanger suggested the answer to poverty and degradation lay in smaller numbers of blacks…
Sanger knew blacks were religious people–and how useful ministers would be to her project. She wrote…

The minister’s work is also important and he should be trained… We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

This is where the disproportionate numbers of African-Americans comes in. African-American children are more likely to be reared by a single parent then they are to be reared by two parents. Which would likely be why abortion is more sought out by African-American women, because they know they would be rearing the child alone.

Avoiding a situation of rearing a child alone is not necessarily a reason for a woman to have an abortion. A woman may just as well choose to have the child out of decency or out of loneliness or any number of factors.

Whereas a case can be made and has been made that the African American community has been tricked into accepting inordinate numbers of abortuaries in their communities on the basis of “free health care.” Whose health are we talking about?

The mother? With correlations between abortions, breast cancer, and no end of mental health problems, abortions certainly do not promote the health of the mother.

The unborn child? With correlations between abortions and the death of the unborn child (hey, obviously), abortions certainly do not promote the health of the unborn child.

Subsequent children? An English study has also demonstrated a correlation between delinquency of subsequent children and the prior abortions of the mother. So certainly not the health of subsequent children.

So whose health are we talking about?

 

[DL82]

This whole argument basically says that we should give up on a whole class (or race?) of people.

It says that rather than teach and support parents in how to bring up their children in a loving environment, we should simply let them kill their children and so avoid the whole situation.

It also implies that the stepford family is the only way a child can be brought up well. If we are unable to raise our children perfectly, it’s better not to raise them at all. The world is a fallen world, crime and delinquency will happen, we need to be there with love for our enemies and forgiveness for those who hurt us when it happens. Jesus Christ was born to a young mother, unmarried when she conceived, in a stable in a town, and was raised as a refugee in a foreign country.

 

[colliric]

This whole argument basically says that we should give up on a whole class (or race?) of people.

It says that rather than teach and support parents in how to bring up their children in a loving environment, we should simply let them kill their children and so avoid the whole situation.

It also implies that the stepford family is the only way a child can be brought up well. If we are unable to raise our children perfectly, it’s better not to raise them at all. The world is a fallen world, crime and delinquency will happen, we need to be there with love for our enemies and forgiveness for those who hurt us when it happens. Jesus Christ was born to a young mother, unmarried when she conceived, in a stable in a town, and was raised as a refugee in a foreign country.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Mary and Joseph raised him mostly in their home town of Nazareth, and based on traditional timings(Of jesus being born in 1BC), they spent less than a year in Egypt(because Herod died sometime in the following year, 1BC).

 

[MrSmith732]

This assertion, it doesn’t need a complicated answer, surely? As far as I can see, the case for abortion lowering crime rates is simply one of numbers. The fewer people there are, the less likelihood of people committing crimes, thus more abortion results in less crime. Added to which there’s the usual dreary fatalism of the pro-abortion lobby and pals, which is that people born into X will do Y.

Specifically, that children who have been murdered in utero would, if they had had a chance to live, have grown up to be murderers, rapists, whatever. Simply because they were an ‘inconvenience’.

So much for free will, so much for personal determination and one’s own ability to live one’s own life.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. These people are all about choice, right? Somehow.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

As far as I can see, the case for abortion lowering crime rates is simply one of numbers.

Yes.

If abortion = hate crime;

then the number of hate crimes against the target group is in direct proportion to the number of abortions against the target group.

Ie, more abortions = more hate crimes.

So far we’re looking at something like more than 40M per year globally as regards hate crimes against unborn children and against the racial groups to which those unborn children belong.

And no attempt to stem the tide of blood. But hey we live in a world where genocide is the order of business. Don’t we?

 

[MrSmith732]

Well, I don’t know about global genocide, but certainly if you look at Darfur.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Well, I don’t know about global genocide, but certainly if you look at Darfur.

Or look at the target groups for abortions.

 

[miguel]

…Abortion is the ultimate crime.

Exactly.

CCC 2271 “…Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.”

 

[MrSmith732]

Or look at the target groups for abortions.

I think I must be missing some info here. How do you mean, please?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I think I must be missing some info here. How do you mean, please?

I posted this info earlier in this thread.

forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=2095846&postcount=46

3 out of 5 pregnant African-American women will abort their child. Since 1973 there has been over 13 million Black children killed… Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member…

The links I am about to give are unpleasant, but represent a little publicized reality for many Americans.

See comparing abortion to other forms of genocide

See the truth about Margaret Sangster

See the Negro project

Margaret… Sanger embraced Malthusian eugenics. Thomas Robert Malthus, a 19th century cleric and professor of political economy, believed a population time bomb threatened the existence of the human race. He viewed social problems such as poverty, deprivation and hunger as evidence of this “population crisis…” Malthus condemned charities and other forms of benevolence, because he believed they only exacerbated the problems…

Malthus disciples believed if Western civilization were to survive, the physically unfit, the materially poor, the spiritually diseased, the *racially inferior, *and the mentally incompetent had to be suppressed and isolated–or even, perhaps, eliminated. His disciples felt the subtler and more “scientific” approaches of education, contraception, sterilization and abortion were more “practical and acceptable ways” to ease the pressures of the alleged overpopulation…

In 1929, 10 years before Sanger created the Negro Project, the ABCL laid the groundwork for a clinic in Harlem… “established for the benefit of the colored people”… Sanger suggested the answer to poverty and degradation lay in smaller numbers of blacks…
Sanger knew blacks were religious people–and how useful ministers would be to her project.

She wrote…

The minister’s work is also important and he should be trained… We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members…