Abortion question- How to respond

[Prolife_Nurse]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[Nelka]

We had a six week scan when we found out we were having twins.

We saw two hearts beating, they were babies and they were alive.

Show her a picture of an aborted baby and ask her what it looks like.

 

[Corki]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

I don’t know if this would help but we, as a society, “force” people to do things that are for the good of others all the time. We “force” absent parents to pay child support; we “force” people to give up thier homes for highway expansion; we “force” employers to provide certain benefits for their employees. The fact that an activity is not entirely voluntary does not make it wrong automatically.

 

[1ke]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

I would encourage you to pick up a copy of Randy Alcorn’s book Pro-Life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Does she believe in God at all? If so, that makes it easier, because we believers claim that God is the Author of Life, not man. It is for Him to say when life begins and when life ends. Not man (okay, or women).

In any case, it’s already a person, regardless of what the atheistic mass media would have you believe. By the time a woman finds out she’s pregnant, the baby already has its own DNA, blood type, etc.

From a logical standpoint, one could argue that a woman has a prima facie right to control her own body. And, this is true. However, the baby has an ultima facie right (which trumps a prima facie right) to life! It is already alive. Living things are meant to grow. The baby is growing. It has a right, according to God, to live.

There are many other arguments that one could use, depending on where she is in her perspective. We’d need a little more info.

And I’d ad one piece of advice: Before you approach her to talk about this, pray for her. Offer Mass, go to Confession if you need to, say your Rosary for her, spend some time before the Blessed Sacrament for her. Stack the deck!

 

[Joe_5859]

Ask her if it’s wrong to force a woman to raise a child. Is it wrong to force a woman to get up in the middle of the night to take care of her screaming newborn? Is it wrong to force a woman to go prepare food for her toddler so that he doesn’t starve to death? Is it wrong to force a woman to care for her mentally disabled teenager?

If we can reasonably expect a woman to do these things for a child that is already born, then what’s the difference?

What this debate always comes down to (and what we must intentionally keep bringing back to the center of attention) is that people who are in favor of abortion do not really believe the fetus is a human being with the right to life that goes along with it. And at that point, we simply ask where the line is drawn. Is newborn a person? How about a child at 39 weeks 6 days gestation? How about 39 weeks 5 days gestation? How about 39 weeks 4 days gestation? etc. etc.

The simple fact is, the only clearly definable line is conception. Everything after that is simply a matter of degree of size, level of development, environment, and degree of ependency (the SLED test).

So where do we draw the line? And why? We better have a really good answer to that question. And it needs to be unmistakable. We wouldn’t demolish a building that might have people inside. If we’re going to take the chance, we have to be certain.

 

[peace2u2]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

I don’t understand if your friend can find discomfort with late-term abortion then she must realize that in order to get that baby to full term it had to grow from being a seed planted in his or her mother’s womb first.The baby just didn’t magically come to be full term.

Every person is unique and unrepeatable even if they die in utero regardless of what stage of life they were in. And being in utero is a stage of life.

melissaohden.com/uncategorized/the-abortion-survivors-network-the-other-october-babies

My own view about early abortion changed when I had to explain abortion to my daughter. I became very uncomfortable telling her a half a lie by saying First, abortion is wrong and no woman should have to go through one, (which that is true) but the next part of the sentence we incorrectly say however we choose to say it is just not right and therefore turns the truth we try to inject into abortion into a full blown out lie. We might try and say well its a woman’s body and no one should tell her what to do with her body or whatever lie we try to use to make abortion sound like a practical way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. A lie is a lie no matter how you try to rearrange the words to make it sound right.

Perhaps what is really lacking in the way we educate our children on sexual intercourse is that somewhere down the line we got very lazy and stopped saying that sex was created by God for 1 man and 1 woman and to be enjoyed when they are married.

Abortion ends the very life that God created.

Hopefully, someone else will add their insight on abortion as well as on contraception.

 

[SonCatcher]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

The woman (in the vast majority of cases) was not forced into the very activity that caused the child to be conceived. Indeed, she was inviting conception by her participation. Why, then, does she think the agrument valid that she has been forced?

 

[St_Francis]

We had a six week scan when we found out we were having twins.

We saw two hearts beating, they were babies and they were alive.

Show her a picture of an aborted baby and ask her what it looks like.

I’m not really for showing pictures of aborted babies, but I am in favor of showing pictures of living babies in the womb.

ETA: Is your friend also a nurse? She would be able to understand the biological aspects if she were, is why I ask.

However, if she is uncomfortable with late abortions, try taking her backwards… If she’s uncomfortable with abortion after viability, then what about just before viability? And so on… Getting people to understand that the “fetus” is simply a different stage of human life, like infancy, toddlerhood, adolescence, is good, they see the continuity. We wouldn’t kill a teenager just because he was inconvenient, expensive, and embarrassing, would we?

 

[St_Francis]

The woman (in the vast majority of cases) was not forced into the very activity that caused the child to be conceived. Indeed, she was inviting conception by her participation. Why, then, does she think the agrument valid that she has been forced?

 

[CrimsonThorn]

I’m not really for showing pictures of aborted babies, but I am in favor of showing pictures of living babies in the womb.

ETA: Is your friend also a nurse? She would be able to understand the biological aspects if she were, is why I ask.

However, if she is uncomfortable with late abortions, try taking her backwards… If she’s uncomfortable with abortion after viability, then what about just before viability? And so on… Getting people to understand that the “fetus” is simply a different stage of human life, like infancy, toddlerhood, adolescence, is good, they see the continuity. We wouldn’t kill a teenager just because he was inconvenient, expensive, and embarrassing, would we?

Ive done this in past discussions with friends and acquaintances, thinking they just didnt know. But after more talks, it seems most people know truly when life begins, they just dont WANT to acknowledge it.

 

[Prolife_Nurse]

I’m not really for showing pictures of aborted babies, but I am in favor of showing pictures of living babies in the womb.

ETA: Is your friend also a nurse? She would be able to understand the biological aspects if she were, is why I ask.

However, if she is uncomfortable with late abortions, try taking her backwards… If she’s uncomfortable with abortion after viability, then what about just before viability? And so on… Getting people to understand that the “fetus” is simply a different stage of human life, like infancy, toddlerhood, adolescence, is good, they see the continuity. We wouldn’t kill a teenager just because he was inconvenient, expensive, and embarrassing, would we?

Wow… I was not really expecting this volume of replies so quickly. Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!

My friend is not a nurse and I think that not understanding the biology involved may indeed be part of the problem. I have been attempting to describe the growth process to her in order to demonstrate that there is no “cutoff point” that a baby becomes a human being, and I attempted to show that a person has the right to live no matter what stage he’s at, but she tries to change the subject a lot by talking about rape situations and other scenarios. She told me that she believes that a mother’s “right to mental health” is greater than the fetus’ right to live. I must admit I’m unsure how to proceed at that point.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Wow… I was not really expecting this volume of replies so quickly. Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!

My friend is not a nurse and I think that not understanding the biology involved may indeed be part of the problem. I have been attempting to describe the growth process to her in order to demonstrate that there is no “cutoff point” that a baby becomes a human being, and I attempted to show that a person has the right to live no matter what stage he’s at, but she tries to change the subject a lot by talking about rape situations and other scenarios. She told me that she believes that a mother’s “right to mental health” is greater than the fetus’ right to live. I must admit I’m unsure how to proceed at that point.

Really? Why is the mother’s ‘right to mental health’ greater than another person’s right to live?

How does the abortion fit into mental health, anyway?

“Gee, I’m pregnant and I don’t want to be.”

“Well, you can kill the baby.”

“Oh good. Instead of being a mother, I’ll be a murderer.”

I don’t know that many people who would feel that being a murderer would be better for their mental health than being a mother (especially if we are not insisting that the woman has to be responsible for the child once the child is born. There are plenty of people looking to adopt children.)

If they DO feel that being a murderer is better than being a mother, their mental health is already impaired. Do we want to let them remain mentally ‘unhealthy’ by thinking that killing someone is justifable for them if they ‘want to’, or help them to real mental ‘health’?

 

[Edward_H]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Identity drives development. Development doesn’t drive identity. Once there is a unique human identity it is that identity that drives development. Early abortions still interrupt development of what is already a unique genetic, unmistakably human person.

It’s not like development progresses up to some point and poof what didn’t have a unique human identity now does.

 

[Prolife_Nurse]

Really? Why is the mother’s ‘right to mental health’ greater than another person’s right to live?

How does the abortion fit into mental health, anyway?

“Gee, I’m pregnant and I don’t want to be.”

“Well, you can kill the baby.”

“Oh good. Instead of being a mother, I’ll be a murderer.”

I don’t know that many people who would feel that being a murderer would be better for their mental health than being a mother (especially if we are not insisting that the woman has to be responsible for the child once the child is born. There are plenty of people looking to adopt children.)

If they DO feel that being a murderer is better than being a mother, their mental health is already impaired. Do we want to let them remain mentally ‘unhealthy’ by thinking that killing someone is justifable for them if they ‘want to’, or help them to real mental ‘health’?

While you are correct, since she doesn’t view abortion as murder, it would be difficult to use this line of reasoning. I haven’t been able to convince her of this yet.

 

[boldlygo]

My wife(fiance at the time) and I were volunteers at a Birthright clinic. Some of the clients were overjoyed with their pregnancies, and couldn’t wait for the infant to arrive. Others were stunned. “How can I be pregnant?! I don’t want to have a baby!” Dr. Jose, one of the most compassionate people I have ever known, would always reply " You already have the baby. The question now is whether you want a live baby or a dead one."

 

[Prolife_Nurse]

My wife(fiance at the time) and I were volunteers at a Birthright clinic. Some of the clients were overjoyed with their pregnancies, and couldn’t wait for the infant to arrive. Others were stunned. “How can I be pregnant?! I don’t want to have a baby!” Dr. Jose, one of the most compassionate people I have ever known, would always reply " You already have the baby. The question now is whether you want a live baby or a dead one."

That is an incredibly brilliant and stunningly apparent observation he makes. I’ve never really heard anything like it before though. Thanks for sharing this!

 

[BDEklof]

Referring to the original post on how to discuss abortion, one needs to tread more lightly than I do.

From the age of 16-20 I believed abortion was a woman’s “right”. approx.
1969-1973. Boy was I young and stupid! Now older and wiser, most folks
know that I believe abortion is bluntly, MURDER. Fewer people know that I consider most contraceptives murder, except for the barrier method & Onanism. I tend to be too blunt sometimes. My hubby & I were unable to
conceive and so adopted two gorgeous babies. We told them at about 4 years old of their origins, later that their biological moms loved them enough to give them life, one even almost lost her own life doing so.

I usually mention that the babies’ heart-beat is heard quite early, talk about
the wonderful photos we have of a fetus in-utero, then describe how contraceptives work. If the person belongs to a church of any kind, I bring in the several Biblical references to not having an abortion & why. I let whom-ever I am talking with know that abortion murders an innocent human being,
period. An innocent child shouldn’t be killed for their mothers convenience
or choice of having sex “at a bad time”, or any time. Women can usually think ahead to the consequences of their actions, however many seem unable to manage those thoughts once they are sexually involved.

I have lost all patience with people of a certain political party when they
can bus in dozens of women who vote illegally in order to continue the
pressure on that political party, but I guess that is another thread.

 

[Prolife_Nurse]

Referring to the original post on how to discuss abortion, one needs to tread more lightly than I do.

From the age of 16-20 I believed abortion was a woman’s “right”. approx.
1969-1973. Boy was I young and stupid! Now older and wiser, most folks
know that I believe abortion is bluntly, MURDER. Fewer people know that I consider most contraceptives murder, except for the barrier method & Onanism. I tend to be too blunt sometimes. My hubby & I were unable to
conceive and so adopted two gorgeous babies. We told them at about 4 years old of their origins, later that their biological moms loved them enough to give them life, one even almost lost her own life doing so.

I usually mention that the babies’ heart-beat is heard quite early, talk about
the wonderful photos we have of a fetus in-utero, then describe how contraceptives work. If the person belongs to a church of any kind, I bring in the several Biblical references to not having an abortion & why. I let whom-ever I am talking with know that abortion murders an innocent human being,
period. An innocent child shouldn’t be killed for their mothers convenience
or choice of having sex “at a bad time”, or any time. Women can usually think ahead to the consequences of their actions, however many seem unable to manage those thoughts once they are sexually involved.

I have lost all patience with people of a certain political party when they
can bus in dozens of women who vote illegally in order to continue the
pressure on that political party, but I guess that is another thread.

Your babies must be beautiful! I think I have the opposite problem you do, I actually have never made my prolife stance known to my friends and acquaintances. Almost everyone my age moves away from this town, so none of my friends are Catholic and we’ve never really had any moral discussions. Due to a horrifying encounter with some abortion pictures I’ve been convinced that I really need to start bringing it up with the people I know. I do think I need to proceed carefully, because if I just start shoving my beliefs wholesale at them I think they would be disinclined to listen to me. It being an election year is actually giving me extra reason to do so.

 

[Catholic80]

Hello all,

A friend of mine and I have been discussing the morality of abortion recently. She is pro-abortion and I am not. I have been able to lead her toward discomfort with late-term abortions, but she still supports contraceptives and early abortions. The problem I’m trying to figure out is how to respond to her repeated statements that, “It’s wrong to force a woman to have a child”. I haven’t been able to bring her to see the embryo/fetus as a human being that deserves to live. Any suggestions? Thanks!

A woman does not get pregnant by accident.

Aside from situations of rape, who forced her to have sex? 99% of abortions are from people who chose to have sex. You are not forcing anyone to get pregnant by prohibiting abortion. What it does do is not permit those who have chosen to have sex, who have gotten pregnant as a result, to kill the child that they now carry. You are not forcing anyone to have a child. If they do not want a child, they do not have to have sex. Pregnancy is a NATURAL consequence of sex, plain and simple. This has been the natural consequence since the beginning of time… and not just for humans, but every living creature. But, you allow contraception, and abortion will soon follow. Why? …

If contraception didn’t exist, and you knew that pregnancy was a high possibility of an extramarital affair, or premarital sex, would you be as likely to engage in that behavior? When we know a consequence exists, we are less likely, even while tempted, to engage in that behavior. Even if we are tempted to steal, jail time makes that temptation easier to resist. If there was no consequence, I guarantee that more people would steal.

So, contraception enters the picture. Now a consequence has been taken away. One can indulge their temptation and “get away with it.” But, contraception isn’t full-proof. Although highly reduced at this point, sometimes pregnancy can still occur. So what now? Just like anyone who tries to hide the evidence of their crime, abortion come into the picture.

But, the longer contraception is available, the more people start engaging in it. And the more people start engaging in it, the more “unwanted” babies are created. It becomes so rampant that it can no longer be hidden and becomes a public issue. Abortion in now legalized. Abortion should be “rare,” but ends up becoming so rampant, it has to be defended, so people create more and more excuses as to why it is “necessary.”

Ever read, “If You Give a Mouse a Cookie”? When we allow contraception, abortion follows.

What has this to do with “forcing women to have babies?” No one forces a woman to have a baby. No one is taking virgins and inseminating them against their will (not including rape) No one is saying, “women must have children.” What we are saying is, "if you choose to have sex, you have chosen to engage in an act that creates a human life. If you do get pregnant because of your own choice to engage in this act, you are not allowed to kill this child because it is another human life who has a right to live. To kill it in the womb or outside is murder of the worst kind as it is premeditated and the murder of an innocent child.