Abortion Questions From Pro-Choice Philosopher David Boonin

  • Thread starter Thread starter CrystalMayner66
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I personally couldn’t present someone who is pro-choice with a sufficiently persuasive argument as to why abortion should be banned. The reason being people who are pro-choice have said to me they think abortion is killing a human being - even murder - but it is not their right to tell a woman what she can do with her body. The ‘the unborn are not human’ argument can be rebutted, but rebutting this one is way beyond my level of competence.

All I can come up with is:

The fetus’ body is not her body. It’s in her body, but is not her body. Thus, the woman is not doing what she wants with her own body. Does she have a right to cause harm that is fatal to fetus on the ground it is in her body purely on the ground she did not consent to it being there?

As the fetus is not capable of obtaining consent prior to occupying the womb, is it just to place this demand on the fetus in order to remain living? If a squatter moved into my house, I threw them out and they subsequently died, I could be charged with manslaughter.

Can it be argued the fetus was indirectly invited?
Thank you for your honesty and for sharing your thoughts!

You might be interested in these resources about bodily autonomy arguments. I certainly learned from them.
I would highly recommend everyone on this thread check out these resources!
 
Boonin latter position is flawed as well. For example, your body naturally exhales CO2 when your are breathing out. Your body is sustaining plant life. Can you request the plant to stop inhaling what you exhale because you have a right not to be used as a life support machine? Should a court send ax armed police to chop down the tree because you prefer you exhalation not to be absorbed and sustain a life you did not choose?

Heck, the tree did not choose for you to breathe IN what it exhales, should the tree advocate sue you for breathing that which the tree did not consent?

Point being – no one is an island unto him or her self. Americans, in general, tend to over emphasis “individual” so called “right”, many times to the detriment of a larger wider community.
Plants do not have rights and do not consent to actions, so I am unable to follow your analogy. Could you alter your analogy so that it involves two people instead of a person and a tree?
 
I think a parallel here is warranted.

In the US it used to be legal in most states, up until the 1960’s, for a man to hit his wife (provided it left no outward marks) as long as it was in his home.

The rationale was: no one can tell a man what to do in his own home.

Even if it involved harming another human being.

That was his domain.

He was sovereign, and could do (practically) anything.

The analogy is chilling…and even worse than harming another human being by hitting her. This one lets you dismember another human being under the guise of “no one can tell a -]man/-] woman what to do in one’s own -]home/-] womb”.

icadvinc.org/what-is-domestic-violence/history-of-battered-womens-movement/
I find this an unsuccessful parallel for opposing what I am arguing. I am not arguing a woman can do anything she wants with what is inside her body–she cannot directly, intentionally harm her child. Neither can a man do anything he wants to those on his property. But every person has the right to refuse to become a life support machine. And refusing to become a life support machine is nothing like a man hitting his wife. At least, I see no semblance.

Also, the right to control who uses your body is far stronger and more sacred than the right to control who uses/resides in your house.

And for the record, I abhor domestic violence, and the idea wives are the property of their husbands. Wives should have full, independent personhood under the law and domestic violence should be illegal.
 
“We know that a slap on the cheek, let it be as light as it may, indeed any touching of the person of another in a rude or angry manner-is in law an assault and battery. In the nature of things it cannot apply to persons in the marriage state, it would break down the great
principle of mutual confidence and dependence; throw open the bedroom to the gaze of the public; and spread discord and misery,contention and strife, where peace and concord ought to reign. It must be remembered that rules of law are intended to act in all
classes of society.” digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2092&context=fss_papers
Utterly disgusting. :mad:
 
Is the argument here when it occupies our body in the absence of consent?
The argument I am presenting is that every person has a right to refuse to become a life support machine, and pregnant women who did not give consent for the child to feed off their bloodstream have the right to remove the child from their body without directly harming the child, unless it can otherwise be established how the child has the right to remain without her consent.

Thus the questions of the original post: How does a woman consent to pregnancy and what claim might the child have to it’s mother’s body if she gave no consent for him to implant?
 
On what grounds would you oppose artificial wombs, womb to artificial womb transfers or womb to womb transfers?
 
I am arguing what the mother’s legal obligations should be. I would fully agree, at least as a general rule, Catholic women are bound by God’s law to continue their pregnancies to term.
 
The dilemma is that a woman has the right of bodily autonomy, the right to refuse for her body to be used by someone else.
Except if this is an innocent person who is there as a result of her actions, related to her in body…that changes everything.
And yet for the pregnant woman to refuse her child the privilege of feeding off her bloodstream before viability is to cause the child’s death, foreseen yet unintentional.
That’s a bit absurd to call the child’s death through abortion “foreseen yet unintentional”.

That’s like leaving a 4 month old baby in the bathtub while you go outside to smoke a cigarette, and claiming that his death was “foreseen yet unintentional”.
This is a tragedy and a dilemma, the ethical dilemma with the child and the woman’s right to bodily autonomy colliding with each other.
I suppose a man could say that when he drags his wife around by her hair because she burned his toast, that there is this “dilemma”, too: He has the right to the privacy of his own domicile, the right of autonomy to do what he wants in his own kitchen without the gaze of the public interfering with his private affairs.

What say you to this? If it’s “utterly disgusting” for the man to treat another human being like this in the name of autonomy…then you should be consistent and say that it is “utterly disgusting” (even more so) to dismember a little baby in the name of autonomy.
I certainly hope one day soon technological advances will allow women to end a pregnancy anytime without resulting in the child’s death–then the motivation for abortion would vanish.
But in the meantime, if the only way to end a pregnancy is through the taking the life of a human person, then it should be illegal to end this pregnancy.
 
And refusing to become a life support machine is nothing like a man hitting his wife. At least, I see no semblance.
So what if the reason this human person is on her life support is because she engaged in an activity that caused this human person to be on her life support?
 
Thus the questions of the original post: How does a woman consent to pregnancy and what claim might the child have to it’s mother’s body if she gave no consent for him to implant?
And just so we are clear about this, too: you are of the position that if a man engages in sex with someone, and that’s all he wanted….just sex.…nothing more…

and she becomes pregnant with his child…

…he doesn’t have to support this baby–no forced child support–if he never consented to her getting pregnant?
 
I am arguing what the mother’s legal obligations should be. I would fully agree, at least as a general rule, Catholic women are bound by God’s law to continue their pregnancies to term.
I don’t think this is morally sound.

It’s like saying that only Catholic men shouldn’t beat their wives because they are bound by God’s law to see their wives as having inherent dignity.

But Jewish men, Muslim men, atheist men, they’re not bound by Catholic rules, so beating their wives is perfectly fine?
 
The argument I am presenting is that every person has a right to refuse to become a life support machine, and pregnant women who did not give consent for the child to feed off their bloodstream have the right to remove the child from their body without directly harming the child, unless it can otherwise be established how the child has the right to remain without her consent.
Pregnancy and putting someone on life support machine is not a realistic comparitor.

Yes, every person has the right to refuse life support, but when and in what circumstances? If a person has a living will this will outline the circumstances in which the person does not want to be placed on a life support machine. Prior to engaging in sexual intercourse there is no such contract.

The medical profession do not need consent to attach someone to life support. Consent is implied. To be detached they need consent from relatives, but if they refuse a court order may sought - but consider the grounds in which it may be granted or refused.

At law you cannot have an abortion on the ground the fetus is feeding off you and you did not consent to this feeding. Where a law of this nature is advocated, you are talking abortion on demand. I don’t want this fetus to feed off my bloodstream and I am 8 months pregnant. Would you advocate an abortion in these circumstances purely for this reason?
Thus the questions of the original post: How does a woman consent to pregnancy and what claim might the child have to it’s mother’s body if she gave no consent for him to implant?
She consents to pregnancy if she wants to get pregnant. If she runs the risk - implied consent. Let’s not forget the men.

Under current law the child has no claim to be in womb as law has not gone there.

Morally? Let’s say a parasite could provide a cure for cancer. A human has this parasite in their body. What should they do?
 
Except if this is an innocent person who is there as a result of her actions, related to her in body…that changes everything.
I believe having sex constitutes consent to a resulting pregnancy, so if the child is conceived “as a result of her actions”, then I agree she has waived her right to refuse, unless health complications arise which would merit ending the pregnancy in self-defense.

I find the genetic relationship of the person feeding to the person being fed off of irrelevant.
That’s a bit absurd to call the child’s death through abortion “foreseen yet unintentional”.
That’s like leaving a 4 month old baby in the bathtub while you go outside to smoke a cigarette, and claiming that his death was “foreseen yet unintentional”.
Direct abortions, those which involve intentionally, directly attacking/killing a child, are never justified.

A mother who did not consent to her pregnancy or has a self-defense claim has the right to refuse to allow her child to feed off her bloodstream via an indirect abortion. Before viability, there is no way for a child to survive upon delivery. Delivering him without attacking him and loving him until his death is the best that can be done if a woman exercises her right to refuse.

No right of the mother allows her to leave a 4 month old baby unattended in the bathtub to smoke. Therefore the scenarios are entirely different.

Though it is possible that if a woman left her baby in the tub to smoke, her baby could die without her intention, this mother would be legally responsible for her actions, assuming there were no extraordinary circumstances (mother was on prescription drugs that impaired her judgement, etc. )
I suppose a man could say that when he drags his wife around by her hair because she burned his toast, that there is this “dilemma”, too: He has the right to the privacy of his own domicile, the right of autonomy to do what he wants in his own kitchen without the gaze of the public interfering with his private affairs.
As already stated, I see no parallel between domestic violence and indirect abortion. I find it deeply disturbing you would compare a woman refusing to remain a life support machine to an abusive man dragging his wife by the hair. 😦 But of course you have the right to present such a parallel even if it bothers me.
What say you to this? If it’s “utterly disgusting” for the man to treat another human being like this in the name of autonomy…then you should be consistent and say that it is “utterly disgusting” (even more so) to dismember a little baby in the name of autonomy.
It is utterly disgusting to dismember a little baby in the name of anything. I have said I oppose dismemberment abortions many times already. I make no judgement on those who have had abortions. I understand how compelling the choice of abortion can be and I wish them well. But I judge the action of dismemberment as objectively wrong.
 
Just so we are clear: you are saying that a mother has the right to refuse to breastfeed her child, even if it means this child will die.

That’s your position?
In post #161, I agreed to the following statements:
The right to live is not the same thing as the right to be kept alive by another person. So just because the 2 month old baby depends on the woman’s body for life, doesn’t mean he has a right to use it. We must figure out how the 2 month old obtains the right to use it, and when the mother’s rights overcome the 2 month old’s right to use it
When I agreed to these statements I was not saying “a mother has the right to refuse to breastfeed her child”. Those statements say no such thing.

This is my position on the question of whether a woman may refuse to breastfeed a child entirely dependent on her, as I stated in post #159:
Does she have an obligation to breastfeed or parent if no one else is willing or able to do so? I’m not sure. In the absence of abnormal maternal health complications (such as raw, bleeding nipples, painful to touch) and if the mother consented to the pregnancy, I am inclined to say yes. In the presence of maternal health complications, I’m inclined to say no. If the mother is healthy but did not consent to the pregnancy…shaky yes? Certainly any woman who parented a child without obligation would be a Good Samaritan and hero.
 
So what if the reason this human person is on her life support is because she engaged in an activity that caused this human person to be on her life support?
Please rephrase the question, I don’t understand what you are asking.
 
And just so we are clear about this, too: you are of the position that if a man engages in sex with someone, and that’s all he wanted….just sex.…nothing more…

and she becomes pregnant with his child…

…he doesn’t have to support this baby–no forced child support–if he never consented to her getting pregnant?
I believe when one consents to sex, one consents to a resulting pregnancy. Therefore I believe a father has the obligation to financially contribute to pregnancy and birth costs.

After birth, a mother has the right to sign away her parental rights and obligations by choosing adoption. Therefore, I believe fathers should have the right to waive their parental rights and responsibilities after birth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top