Abortion vs Captial Punishment

[JoeyWarren]

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

This is the catch 22 on whether it is wrong or not. We supposedly live in the most humane and most civil and the most non-barbaric country in the nation. I when I read this last paragraph, I don’t see Christ walking up and throwing the switch. Now if I had grown up somewhere else where the value of life is not so great than the first paragraph of 2267 would prevail. The Vatican Council that created this Catechism may have seen this in the near future, so the last paragraph was added to discourage barbaricness.

The further we grow into civilness and humaneness, the more the last paragraph makes it wrong to execute.

Remember the Lords Prayer: Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Is it the Will of God to have Executions in heaven?

 

[fix]

JoeyWarren:

I will redirect you to post #98

The CCC support my position, not yours.

When and how often it is administered are prudential judgments. It is no sin to support it.

 

[JoeyWarren]

fix:

The CCC support my position, not yours.

When and how often it is administered are a prudential judgments. It is no sin to support it.

Redirect to post 101

 

[fix]

JoeyWarren:

A And I would suggest you read “This is our Faith” by Michael Francis Pennock which is being currently used to teach a lot of RCIA classes.

I suggest you read what cardinal Dulles has written.

 

[Isidore_AK]

JoeyWarren:

A rose is a rose and by any other name is still a rose.
Execution is a Murder.
The USA defines an Execution as “Judicial Homocide”.
Judical Homocide is what is written on the Death Certificate.

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

The last paragraph of this catechism makes it wrong to execute. And I would suggest you read “This is our Faith” by Michael Francis Pennock which is being currently used to teach a lot of RCIA classes.

A lot of RCIA classes are so full of heresy that you wouldn’t believe it…

In any case, the Church allows the use of the death penalty, and DOES NOT equate it with either murder, or abortion.

As to the ‘very rare, to practically non-existant’ use of the death penalty in the last paragraph, I think I’d call less than .06% of criminals being sentanced to death “very rare” and “practically non-existant”. Particularly when killing them is the only way to prevent them from continuing to hurt others…

Why don’t you read some from the “other side” and see if you still feel the same way…
prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html

 

[JoeyWarren]

I don’t know why we are debating about this. Most of us believe that Capital Punishment is wrong just as Abortion is wrong.

 

[fix]

JoeyWarren:

Redirect to post 101

See this:

                         Fr. George Rutler, also writing in the "Register," agrees with Dulles's                             view but is even more critical of what he terms the "problematic" decision                             to put a prudential judgment into a catechetical text. He and Dulles                             emphasize that there is a clear distinction between Church teachings and                             the prudential judgments of a pope.
                        
                        All Catholics must subscribe to the former, but Catholics are free to                             disagree with the latter, since prudential judgments are not under the                             charism of infallibility and are not themselves authoritative                             pronouncements of the magisterium. While they may relate to doctrines of                             faith and morals, they are neither one nor the other.
                        
                        Dunnigan notes that "Catholics are obliged to give 'a religious submission                             of the intellect and will' to the ordinary magisterium, but this duty                             attaches only to doctrines and teachings of the Church. This same duty of                             submission does not attach to the mere prudential judgments of the Church's                             pastors. The conclusion that the circumstances justifying the death penalty                             are 'practically non-existent' is based on a prudential judgment about the                             state of the penal system.
                        
                        "As a result of the fact that a Catholic legitimately might disagree with                             this judgment, it follows that he legitimately might disagree as well with                             the conclusion that the circumstances justifying capital punishment are                             'practically non-existent.'"

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040302.asp

 

[JoeyWarren]

Okay, if we are going to go there, let’s go there fully.

Let us Execute every single Priest that has molested a child. And let us Execute every single Priest that helped to cover this up starting with Cardinal Bernad Shaw who is hiding in the Vatican.

These crimes they committed are more heinous than murder.

These Priests are the Cancer of Society.

No more comments from me on this today.

 

[estesbob]

JoeyWarren:

I don’t know why we are debating about this. Most of us believe that Capital Punishment is wrong just as Abortion is wrong.

There is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE between the two. That is what we are debating. Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Reasonable people can disagree on captial puishment but it is not intrinisically evil, is not is the same league as Abortion and is not condemned by Our Church

 

[Brendan]

Joeywarren

Here is the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent. As such, it is the unchangeble teaching of the Church.

Do you agree with it’s teaching

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent.

The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (5th) Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment? is the preservation and security of human life.

Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord

.

 

[Phil_M]

estesbob:

Then you shouldnt vote for either. How could you possbilly entrust the governing of our country to someone who supports the killing of 1.2 million children a year???

I understand where you’re coming from, but remember, this anti-abortion candidate I’m talking about is going to sit back and do nothing while millions starve to death all over the world and die of AIDS. Remember, all life is sacred

Not voting is a horrible idea. People have given their lives so that we could have the right to vote, there is no reason to take this right for granted

Capital punishment involves taking a life. Taking another’s life is not right, no matter how it’s done. To say that Capital Punishment is acceptable is to say that the life of the person being executed is less sacred than everyone else’s

 

[estesbob]

Phil M:

I understand where you’re coming from, but remember, this anti-abortion candidate I’m talking about is going to sit back and do nothing while millions starve to death all over the world and die of AIDS. Remember, all life is sacred

No such candidate exists. It appears you are trying to rationalize voting for pro-abortion candidates by demonizing those you have political differences with.

 

[estesbob]

Phil M:

Capital punishment involves taking a life. Taking another’s life is not right, no matter how it’s done. To say that Capital Punishment is acceptable is to say that the life of the person being executed is less sacred than everyone else’s

I am not saying captial pounishment is acceptable-I am saying the Church says it is. There is absolutely no moral equaivalence between abortion and the death penatly. none.

 

[Isidore_AK]

JoeyWarren:

I don’t know why we are debating about this. Most of us believe that Capital Punishment is wrong just as Abortion is wrong.

I think you may be wrong on that one. SOME of us are against capital punishment, and SOME of us would like to see it (ahem, exuse the pun) executed more often.

Now, I think you may be on to something for executing rapists and child molesters. Thats an issue I feel very very strongly about…harsher punishments (and I am NOT ruling out execution on this one!) are most definately necessary for sex offenders of all types. Every time I see another news story about some poor child that has been raped and murdered I want to go and commit an act of vigilante justice…

 

[Brendan]

Phil M:

Capital punishment involves taking a life. Taking another’s life is not right, no matter how it’s done. To say that Capital Punishment is acceptable is to say that the life of the person being executed is less sacred than everyone else’s

Read my post above. The Church states that there are times (abiet very rare) where it is not only right, but is a moral duty.

 

[mike182d]

JoeyWarren:

Remember the Lords Prayer: Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Is it the Will of God to have Executions in heaven?

Yes. Its called “Hell.”

 

[mike182d]

Phil M:

I understand where you’re coming from, but remember, this anti-abortion candidate I’m talking about is going to sit back and do nothing while millions starve to death all over the world and die of AIDS. Remember, all life is sacred

Are we electing officials to the World Government or the United States Government? Furthermore, there are thousands of people who die a day falling down stairs and I have yet to see one Democrat take a stand on this! Every life is sacred and I demand our Government stop these deaths from happening!

Not voting is a horrible idea. People have given their lives so that we could have the right to vote, there is no reason to take this right for granted

Amen!

Capital punishment involves taking a life. Taking another’s life is not right, no matter how it’s done. To say that Capital Punishment is acceptable is to say that the life of the person being executed is less sacred than everyone else’s

Where is this passage in the Bible?

 

[Phil_M]

estesbob:

I am not saying captial pounishment is acceptable-I am saying the Church says it is. There is absolutely no moral equaivalence between abortion and the death penatly. none.

I’m not sure what you mean. Both of them involve taking a life. When one attacks human life, they are attacking God himself, since all human beings are created in his image

 

[Phil_M]

mike182d:

Are we electing officials to the World Government or the United States Government? Furthermore, there are thousands of people who die a day falling down stairs and I have yet to see one Democrat take a stand on this! Every life is sacred and I demand our Government stop these deaths from happening!

I’m not saying that the government can put a stop to every single thing that causes people to die. But when less than 1% of the federal budget is going to people in Africa who are in desperate need of our help, it’s pretty clear that the US isn’t doing all it can to improve people’s lives

mike182d:

Where is this passage in the Bible?

“And God created man to his own image” (Genesis 2:27) Every person is created in the image of God, and so every life is sacred. Like it says in Evangelium Vitae, whoever attacks human life in any of its forms is attacking God himself

 

[estesbob]

Phil M:

I’m not sure what you mean. Both of them involve taking a life. When one attacks human life, they are attacking God himself, since all human beings are created in his image

Our Church disagrees with you.