Abortion vs. contraception

[Abrosz]

Grave matter is grave matter, contraception is intrinsically evil.

I am not sure if genocide is on the same level as masturbation. YMMV.

It is possible to eliminate both of them, you choose not to commit either act.

That is very true. The same sentiment was expressed on a bumper sticker, ages ago: “Against abortion? Then don’t have one!” We could have a new one: “Against contraception? Then don’t practice it.”

Key word being “successful.”

This makes it a practical problem. Though I doubt that the church would endorse a 100% safe, absolutely foolproof contraceptive method. (Which, of course - exist!)

The problem is that using contraception actually gives way to a higher abortion rate, because the purpose of sex, to procreate children, becomes divorced from the act.

Not a successful contraception - as you pointed it out. But there and many women, not just Catholics, who practice contraception, but if it fails, then they accept it and carry the pregnancy to term.

Oh, and the procreation is only ONE of the purposes of sex, and based upon the frequency, it is the least important one.

It’s not really necessary or appropriate to try to rank which sin is worse. Both are sins. Both are bad. Don’t do either of them.

Sure. I quoted the bumper sticker above.

We may never do evil, even in pursuit of good.

So what is your practical solution? Eliminating abortion is a common goal. How do you suggest we can get there? Eliminating contraception is an unwinnable battle.

Abortion is grave matter against the fifth commandment.

Abortion can be viewed as “murder”. Though some would disagree.

Contraception is grave matter against the sixth commandment.

Would you please quote it? There are several versions of the Decalogue. Because contraception is not “adultery” if that is what you had in mind.

 

[Anicette]

Which one is considered “graver”?

Abortion is worst, as it is a suppression of a developping child, equivalent to a murder.
Until a very recent time, deliberate abortion was punished by excomunication for a Catholic. The worst sanction that exists. Done to make consciences aware of the seriousness of the sin.

Successful contraception eliminates the need for abortion.

Not true. it is not because a contraception will not fail that a woman will not abort. Some will abort because of some abnormality on the foetus. In cold statistics almost all women will abort for down children, and virtually all women would do the same for some illness such as myopathies.
The eugenic pression to have a “perfect” child has never been so hard than now, and it goes worst.

And a total control over fertility is a myth. Pill has a high rate of unplanned pregnancies. Long tern contraception make it very difficult for the user to make mistakes, but it has its own failures rate, and it is not uncommon that a woman fall pregnant with an IUD for eg.

And ironically, the more people are using (effective) contraception, the more they are likely to abort when and if it would failed…
Contraception permits to maintain our sexuality in circunstances and mentality when it is not desirable to have a child.

Since it is impossible to eradicate both, one must compromise

We should not compromise.
And anyway , people who are using no contraception on purpose will abort less than people who use it.

Does the church have some “dogmatic” view on this question?

Of course, see the goal of raising a family.
Prepare yourself, marry and after have children. Don’t use contraception.

Society have the due to protect the families to allow them to raise their children according to their beliefs and help them to secure their economic wealth. Family is the domestic Church. Politic should be pro family and pro life.

 

[Abrosz]

Not true. it is not because a contraception will not fail that a woman will not abort.

If there is a successful prevention, there will be nothing to abort.

And a total control over fertility is a myth.

I am not going into details, but non-vaginal intercourse IS 100% foolproof.

Contraception permits to maintain our sexuality in circunstances and mentality when it is not desirable to have a child.

Which is about 95% of the cases.

Of course, see the goal of raising a family.
Prepare yourself, marry and after have children. Don’t use contraception.

That may be a teaching, but not an expressed dogma.

Again. Sex has several purposes. Procreation is one of them. People will not give up sex. So to prevent unwanted pregnancies requires preventive methods. Abstinence is one of them. Whoever wishes to practice it, it is their business. What about the rest? They want to have sex, and do not want to procreate. That is a FACT. Abortion is “worse” than contraception. You cannot eliminate both. So you should choose the “lesser” of two evils.

The church does not grow as it could - and the sexual matters play a very significant part. Isn’t it time to face reality??

 

[Anicette]

[

Anicette:

Not true. it is not because a contraception will not fail that a woman will not abort.

If there is a successful prevention, there will be nothing to abort.

Don’t you have read my reply fully, or do you seriousely consider an unborn child with malformation as “nothing”? Whereas at the same time you seems so busy to (intellectually) prevent abortion for “normal” children?

I am not going into details, but non-vaginal intercourse IS 100% foolproof.

Wrong. A woman can fall pregnant after a contact with a man if she is in a fertile period and some seed come on or an area close to her genitals. And even a few woman who are “virgins” have been fallen pregnant like that (especially of muslin culture for obvious reason).

Anicette:

Contraception permits to maintain our sexuality in circunstances and mentality when it is not desirable to have a child.

Which is about 95% of the cases.

I disagree. I don’t consider that it is undesirable for a married couple, in good health, with at least one full time employment to have (another) children. They can feel they have strong reasons for not having one, but if we look from the outside, to want to abort a child because he is “unplanned” would be unjust

Do you consider that in 95% of cases, the unplanned children “need” to be abort?

The church does not grow as it could - and the sexual matters play a very significant part. Isn’t it time to face reality??

Why the need to target the Church especially? There are many protestant denominations who are dying. In general, almost all religions worldwide loose faithfull people. There are some areas with more religious revival, but in the western societies at least, religious practices are mooving back.

 

[1ke]

Abortion can be viewed as “murder”. Though some would disagree.

As I said, grave matter against the fifth commandment.

Would you please quote it? There are several versions of the Decalogue. Because contraception is not “adultery” if that is what you had in mind.

This is a Catholic site, therefore expect references to the commandments to use the Catholic listing.

The sixth commandment encompasses all sexual sin— sins against chastity— and offenses against the threefold aspects of marriage— fidelity, perpetuity, and fecundity.

See the Catechism, sixth commandment.

 

[Anesti33]

The church does not grow as it could - and the sexual matters play a very significant part. Isn’t it time to face reality??

Yes, the Church would grow much better if married couples weren’t contracepting and aborting their children. The Church would grow if there weren’t a stigma and a financial burden associated with large families. The Church would grow if mothers didn’t have to endure snide remarks from people who think they should have stopped at 1 or 2.

Our pastor closed the parochial school in 2011. The parish subsidy had grown to such a size as to become burdensome; the school was not carrying its own weight financially. Some people expressed chagrin at the closing, and Father simply said “welp, couples shouldn’t be contracepting, we’d have children to fill all these classrooms.”

 

[Abrosz]

Don’t you have read my reply fully, or do you seriousely consider an unborn child with malformation as “nothing”? Whereas at the same time you seems so busy to (intellectually) prevent abortion for “normal” children?

I hate to repeat, but a successful contraception will NOT result in conception, malformed or otherwise.

Wrong. A woman can fall pregnant after a contact with a man if she is in a fertile period and some seed come on or an area close to her genitals. And even a few woman who are “virgins” have been fallen pregnant like that (especially of muslin culture for obvious reason).

Again, you seem to misread what I posted. Foreplay can result in conception, but there are other kinds, which are absolutely foolproof. For details you can ask teenagers.

I don’t consider that it is undesirable for a married couple, in good health, with at least one full time employment to have (another) children.

It is THEIR choice, not anyone else’s.

 

[Anicette]

I hate to repeat, but a successful contraception will NOT result in conception, malformed or otherwise.

Yet, you forget that someone can have a “planned” pregnancy and abort her child because of some abnormality. Not to mention that the circunstances surrounding the mother can change after she fall pregnant, which can lead her to an abortion.

And you will have no way to be sure before that your contraception will be sucessfull. Failures happened.

To conclude contraception and abortion are not on a practical side compatible.
On the moral, intellectual and spiritaul side, it is two products of the same tree, the culture of death.

It is THEIR choice, not anyone else’s.

Can I ask why you create at least 3 posts dedicated to find solutions to prevent abortion if you believe that abortion is a choice of the parents, and nobody else?

What is the point of that? If it is a choice, let them choice, and let the debate outside it!

 

[Abrosz]

Yet, you forget that someone can have a “planned” pregnancy and abort her child because of some abnormality.

Apples and oranges. I am only talking about sex without the intent to procreate. Successful birth control = NO pregnancy, nothing to abort.

Not to mention that the circunstances surrounding the mother can change after she fall pregnant, which can lead her to an abortion.

If the prevention was successful, there is no conception, so there can be no abortion.

And you will have no way to be sure before that your contraception will be sucessfull. Failures happened.

I am not going to elaborate, because it could lead to a suspension or a banning. Just ask an average teenager how to have wonderful sex without the possibility of conception. Because they know it.

 

[Anicette]

You don’t answer the questions.

I conclude, as you are pro choice (= for abortion as you admitted it), that you are in favor of abortion for disabled children.
And that you would be in favor of a “choice” if a woman fall pregnant deliberately (=stopping contraception after agreeing with her man that they want a baby), but after her boyfriend left her. She don’t want to raise a child alone, so she thinks of an abortion.

The two are not just hypethical scenarios. It happened often.

And why you are refusing to answer what to do when the contraception fails? Do you need that we quoted exemples?
Well, wait, you are in favor of abortion. So why, again post “abortion versus contraception”?

I am not going to elaborate, because it could lead to a suspension or a banning. Just ask an average teenager how to have wonderful sex without the possibility of conception. Because they know it.

Why are you speaking again and again, of that? There is no link with your initial topic.

 

[enoch1]

the schools are closing because we have to many children…we cant build more schools,we cant keep the ones we have because of the expense of running the schools… the families with many children cant afford to put kids in catholic schools. father has things backward.

 

[enoch1]

God made sex,not for a hunger or a little snack like a candy bar… sex is a strong DRIVE ,in all species. we cant follow the churches rules to just have sex for children. people who are in love will have sex. think of having 2 children at the age of 30,and stop having sex,because the church says its sinful?? we are not celibates,married people are sexual beings like God intended us to be…contraception works and keeps people from having 15 kids, and live in poverty . also think of almost destroying the parents and other kids,in very large families. we have huge families and most are on social welfare and poor…this is where the poor come from…to many kids…

 

[Anesti33]

we cant follow the churches rules to just have sex for children.

Pro tip: that’s not actually a rule.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Our pastor closed the parochial school in 2011. The parish subsidy had grown to such a size as to become burdensome; the school was not carrying its own weight financially. Some people expressed chagrin at the closing, and Father simply said “welp, couples shouldn’t be contracepting, we’d have children to fill all these classrooms.”

When y’all get tired of this priest, could you send him to my parish?

This is golden!

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

What you are saying is not in accordance with Church teaching.

 

[FiveLinden]

using contraception actually gives way to a higher abortion rate, because the purpose of sex, to procreate children, becomes divorced from the act.

Is there evidence, other than the opinion of Chesterton?

 

[kapp19]

The 6th Commandment ranks lower than the 5th Commandment.

There you have it.

-K

 

[kapp19]

Just ask an average teenager how to have wonderful sex without the possibility of conception. Because they know it.

Yes… and do we see a flourishing crop of teens as a result? I would suspect - or at least hope - that you would agree that there is a problem.

Unwin’s book on the topic is great… Three generations after screwing up marriage, a society will collapse in on itself, a thesis with dozens of test-cases and zero counter-examples (that he found), and we are about to test this hypothesis in the West. Gulp.

 

[Abrosz]

Yes… and do we see a flourishing crop of teens as a result?

They know the technique, even though they are usually not mature enough to implement it consistently. I could tell the details, but it would against the forum rules - but there are ways and means to enjoy the sex without unwanted conception.

Because sex is only partially for procreation. Even the church accepts the unitive aspects of it. So there are three aspects; procreation, unifying and pleasure seeking. All animals outside the great apes (humans included!) are only interested in sex during the estrus. The great apes are exempt. Since you believe that this is according to God’s design, it is a mystery why do you wish to repudiate it.

So having sex is normal even for simple pleasure seeking purposes - according to God’s design. Why do you wish to overthrow God’s design, and “castrate” sex for only procreative purposes? Do you know better than God?

 

[Abrosz]

I conclude, as you are pro choice (= for abortion as you admitted it), that you are in favor of abortion for disabled children.

Your conclusion is hasty and prideful.

And why you are refusing to answer what to do when the contraception fails?

Because it is NOT THE TOPIC!!!